Arjun vs T90 MBT

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Decklander, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Do you know how these small differences create large battle outcomes? Arjun can operate in swamps while T-90 can't. Do you know the kind of anti tank difences Pakistan has called ditch cum bund? Do you know they can flood those areas with water to stop tank assault? You need to know your enemy and his tactics also. Arjun has better fordging capability than T-90 and so it more suited for warfare in Punjab & Jammu sector besides being best for Desert warfare.
    Every such site has paid members who spread falsehood on behalf of weapon manufacturers. Lets start a new thread and I would like to have a one-on-one debate with those defence professionals who claim T-90 to be better than Arjun. the fact that T-90 is better suited for northeast hills due to low temps clearly gives victory to Arjun. India has temps as high as 50*C in Thar and the temp inside the tank in such heat can easily go up to 60*C if cooling is not provided. The electronics will not work if they are not designed to withstand those temps and thats the biggest problem of all russian equipment.

    I throw an open challenge to those who call T-90 superior to Arjun to debate with me.
     
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  3. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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  4. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase

    So what is the ground pressure per square inch excerted by arjun? Do you know that?
    http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf

    t-90 -ground pressure ---------------12.5 psi---weight----------------46.5 tons
    arjun-------------------------------------- 11.9 psi-- weight----------------58.5 tons
    M1A2 abramms------------------------15.4 psi--weight-----------------69.54 tons
    leopard2-----------------------------------11.8psi--weight-----------------60.9 tons
    leclarc--------------------------------------13.5psi--weight-----------------54.5 tons

    here leoperd 2 has a weight of 60.9 tons and 11.8 psi ground pressure.
    leclarc on the other hand has 54.5 ton weight and has 13.5 ton psi. What is your big book of tanks say about it?
    the width of the track is fixed according to the designed ground pressure. it is a design parameter. Not some thing you wish for.

    If you still insist on equating the arjun ground pressure with abrams again and again what can I do?

    http://www.military-today.com/tanks/arjun_mk2.htm
    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/heavier-more-lethal-arjun-tank-poised.html

    The above site has interviews from The Arjun Project leaders, V Balamurugan and GK Kumaravel

    Enough or not?
    People like you keep making post after post without having any knowledge about arjun and it's spec are beyond reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
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  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    We will now discuss on this thread not just the diff between Arjun and T-90 but also the tactics employed by PA to counter our strike corps. Just data will not do it has to backed by how it will effect the tactics and battle outcomes. lets have it. I open the debate.
    @methos @Damian @p2prada @Akim @militarysta @Lidsky M.D @Ray @Austin
     
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  6. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    yeah that is true.............:rofl:
     
  7. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    Sir first the Canals along the India-Pakistan border and then about Cold Start
     
  8. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I am not interested about some internet sources that do not provide data from military manuals or documentation. Not to mention that IPCS report provides completely wrong data and is written by morons who mix short tons with metric tons, and this is why we have completely mixed and wrong data for ground pressure.

    Look at the M1A2 weight data, it is provided in short tons, while weight data for Leclerc and Leopard 2 weight is provided in metric tons, which in the end results in completely fuc$%d up final effect.
     
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  9. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    I want highlight some points specially on flaws of three tanks :

    1. T-90S

    2 .Arjun MK-1

    3. T-72M1

    T-90S is a good tank BETTER than rust T-72 Monkey models, Its better that many of our tanker user of T-72M1 are now in T-90S..

    T-90S have flaws, So does Arjun MK-1 but both are replacing T-72M1 which is outdated junk used in mass in IA..


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Flaws if T-90S:

    1. Thin side Armour ( Turret )

    2. No ERA protection at Chassis sides ( Ammo placement, propellant on floor )

    3. Expose ammo (Plastic bag propellant) on the floor of the tank



    Flaws in Arjun MK-1:

    1. Gunner Sight placement.

    2. Big mantel..

    3. Thin side Armour Turret..



    Flaws in T-72M1

    1. Thin side Armour turret

    2. Outdated Armour Module

    3. M for Monkey model were degraded in Armour thickness compare to T-72B

    4. Outdated Ammo

    5. 2A46 or equivalent Indian is out dated gun

    6. Auto loader layout

    7. Expose ammo on the floor of the tank

    8. No 360 degree Commander Periscope..
     
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  10. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    @Damian,
    I have asked very clear question. Please respond as a professional. Many members here do not have armed forces background. They have data from web search only. I and you are professionals. lets debate. pls respond to my query.
     
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  11. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase

    Only someone very poorly educated person can call A BT and T-34 series suspension as better. Do you know what suspension these vehicles used? It was Christie suspension, a very primitive and problematic, and soviets leave it behind as soon as possible.

    In fact Soviets allways wanted to use the same torsion bars suspension systems as Germans did.

    For example the original T-34 was intended to be replaced as quickly as possible with T-34M that had torsion bars suspension system instead of Christie suspension, but war jeopardized all these plans and in the end the T-34 replacement become T-44 that was designed from 1943 and become manufactured in late 1944, but never participated in the second world war.

    So :

    It does not mean you know a lot about tanks. I suggest to read some good books. For example Боевитые машины Уральвагонзавода Т-54 / Т-55 there is a bit about T-44, maybe some other books, I would need to dig in my collection.

    As for smoothbore guns, they were used by Soviets and NATO because spin is not desired in modern ammunition, in fact modern ammunition is not spin stabilized, it is fin stabilized but they do not spin.

    Spin effect is not good for shaped charge warheads. If projectile spin, the shaped charge jet will have reduced penetration capability because spin is making formation of jet difficult.

    French had a lot of problems with this, so they designed a more complex HEAT ammunition, where there was outer case, and inner warhead mounted on ball bearnings, so outer case of projectile was spin stabilized when the warhead itself was not. But this increased complexcity of projectile and manufacturing costs.

    As for APFSDS spin is also not desired, very long rods can even break during flight if they were spin. This is because of forces that are effecting penetrator during flight as well as penetration. And this was a problem even without spin effect, I heard that during some initial tests with longer penetrators in late 1980's and early 1990's ended up with penetrators breaking in to parts during flight, it was solved out but spin is a no go for modern ammunition.

    There was a lot of reasons to resign from rifled guns. And I am amazed that even if top militaries of the world, proved that rifled guns are obsolete, and not needed any more as tanks armament, some people are so attached to that myth of rifled gun, that even if this makes their weapon system obsolete, they would stick to it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
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  12. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I will discuss it all as to how we started CSD from RAPIDS of Gen. Sunderji. I want only defence professionals to join this debate. I am ex navy, I want to see the caliber of Army guys here.
     
  13. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Re: Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase

    Pls do not teach your father how to f**k. You being their is confirmation of it. reply to my specific questions and stop rhetoric. I told you I have done staff college. AND I am EX NAVY, we do amphi ops, we know your tanks better than you do. We may not have operated them but we know how to roll them out of our ships and on what kind of beach to ensure that they dont get bogged down in sea sand.
     
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  14. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Still you call T-34 suspensionas better, when it was not, as it was older, more primitive design. You are ex-Navy? Then stick to the ships, and do not discuss about things you do not have even smallest idea about. Not to mention that rolling tanks from ships to the beaches have nothing to do with their mobility.
     
  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Sir, no need of such accusations here. There is nobody, who prefers T-90 over Arjun, here under any kind of payroll by any manufacturer. The same cannot be said for certain journalists, but everybody here is an enthusiast. Some are more serious than the others, but enthusiasts nonetheless.
     
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  16. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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    Enough talk about credentials. Discuss the topic not individuals
     
  17. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    And did I not responded? I did, data from internet is mostly wrong, confusing, I provided in another topic a weight and ground pressure for M1A1 that is based on US Army documentation.

    Did I really need to scan a pages from a book? :tsk:
    @Decklander
     
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  18. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Since you need data from books, let me ask you another question. A tank has cross country ability of 25kmph. That means it can travel 600kms in a day in cross country battle envoirnment. Pls tell me which country or tank formation has ever done it? has anyone been able to go beyond 75kms in a day? Thats the limit of our CSD also. Is it not? So we have a tank sitting in hiding or idling for nearly 21 hrs in a day.
    Arjun has APU which allows it to shoot even when its engines are turned off. T-90 will have to keep its engines running or it will have a big time lag before it can even enter the battle. So which tank has better range and less reqt of logistics?
    Pls respond. I will tear you apart piece by piece here.
     
  19. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    @Decklander sir a request to keep the doctrinal aspects of CSD confidential
     
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  20. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I am not a fool to post classified data here.
     
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  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I don't think there is anybody here who will disagree with the advantages of APUs on tanks.

    Anyway there are two APUs available for T-90s, DGU5 and DGU7, if we go by Igor's report.
    Defunct Humanity: New information & pics of modernized T-90

    Apart from that there were reports of DRDO developing an APU for the T-90. Just that we don't have more recent information about the T-90s today. I think the last known information is still right after import in 2002, with some media reports here and there.
     

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