Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks

[The Last Stand]

@W.G.Ewald, @methos, @militarysta, @Damian, @Lidsky M.D, @Dejawolf, @pmaitra, @Austin, @Andrei_bt, @Kunal Biswas

In keeping with Indian armoured formations' threats i.e. Type 85-II, Type 90-II, Type 96, Type 99A1, Type 69-G Mk II and Al-Zarrar,

1) How does the Arjun's firepower score? Will it be able to penetrate the Type 90, 96 and 99 (Not worried about Al-Zarrar, 69 or 85 - post if you want)

2) Will Arjun Mk.II armour resist direct hits from the Type 99(Extra composites + NERA. Rate based on Mk.II armour which is undergoing trials)

3) How will Arjun perform in the deserts in case of poor visibility against Al-Zarrar, Type 85 and 90.

4) Are the electronics of the Arjun comparable to contemporary tanks?

5) How would you rate the accuracy of Arjun's gun? (Supposedly the APFSDS round hit the moving target when tank was stationary at a distance of 2 km with a new untrained gunner. Accuracy is stated to be 0.21 mil by OFB)

Also, what would you rate the Arjun as? A cheap tank or a costly tank? Is the Arjun Mk. II (6828461.00 dollars as of today - 6.8 million) worth it's money? Does the tank have a future?

Please refrain from criticism of the gun and armour as "not equal to international standards" or "Arjun is 80's/90's level" since even the Army doesn't criticise the tank as sub-standard since it is happy. The army and the army alone can say that the tank is below it's expectations.

Regards,
Keshav

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

5) How would you rate the accuracy of Arjun's gun? (Supposedly the APFSDS round hit the moving target when [Arjun] was stationary at a distance of 2 km with a new untrained gunner. Accuracy is stated to be 0.21 mil by OFB)

Is there more information for this event? I am thinking the gunner was new to the Arjun and not totally untrained in tank gunnery.

I'd like to offer this information on US Army training:

[PDF]http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/316thCav/content/pdf/TCC.pdf[/PDF]

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[PDF]https://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/316thCav/content/pdf/m1a1a2.pdf[/PDF]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Continue discussion here..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Every one of them, Except latest Type-99s..

All these Chinese tanks or Mutation of Russian tanks have serious flaw, they roof is exposed and inclined over frontal Armour >>

In this sense the frontal protection of these tanks are semi-protected, As long as roof is exposed it can be killed by an RPG-7 anti-Armour if its hit there..

1) How does the Arjun's firepower score? Will it be able to penetrate the Type 90, 96 and 99 (Not worried about Al-Zarrar, 69 or 85 -

=======================

Afaik, Chinese operate same kind of Israeli Rounds we use under OFB manufacture, The round can penetrate +500mm @2000meters, In that case Arjun MK-1/2 can survive direct hit at frontal Armour ( As we tested Arjun against same ammo during 2000 test at point blank range ) as long as its not over her Sight..

2) Will Arjun Mk.II armour resist direct hits from the Type 99(Extra composites + NERA. Rate based on Mk.II armour which is undergoing trials)

=======================

Arjun use Thermal Sights instead of Night Vision in bad desert environments and can detect enemy by there heat signature..

3) How will Arjun perform in the deserts in case of poor visibility against Al-Zarrar, Type 85 and 90.

=======================

Yes, It does just MK1 does not feature BMS which will be rectified in near future, MK2 electronics rating is better than most regional tanks..

4) Are the electronics of the Arjun comparable to contemporary tanks?

=======================

As there was an discussion about Arjun tank, three genrals agreed about Arjun superior accuracy over T-90S, Unfortunatly Vids are now gone, As It is Very accurate according to Army, During trails with T-90S Arjun preformed better in gunnery accuracy during Night specially and if we go by specs its better than T-90S..

^^ Result of the test, Shared by front-line from MOD, Look for Hit Probability to know about accuracy..

5) How would you rate the accuracy of Arjun's gun? (Supposedly the APFSDS round hit the moving target when tank was stationary at a distance of 2 km with a new untrained gunner. Accuracy is stated to be 0.21 mil by OFB)

=======================

It should be cheaper if order in mass, Same for T-90S if we produce them in Arjun`s number it would have been costly..

Presently Tank is expensive but offer good preform-ace compare to T-72M1 & T-90S..

Also, what would you rate the Arjun as? A cheap tank or a costly tank? Is the Arjun Mk. II (6828461.00 dollars as of today - 6.8 million) worth it's money? Does the tank have a future?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Also, Before Crew goes for Real Arjun tank, They spend hours on Simulators of both Gunner and Driver..

 

[anoop_mig25]

@Kunal Biswas off-topic but if remember an Indian psu was involved with poland for development of light weight tanks.What happened to it

 

[arnabmit]

WPB Anders project is suspended post TD as per @Damian

@Kunal Biswas off-topic but if remember an Indian psu was involved with poland for development of light weight tanks.What happened to it

 

[Dejawolf]

@W.G.Ewald, @methos, @militarysta, @Damian, @Lidsky M.D, @Dejawolf, @pmaitra, @Austin, @Andrei_bt, @Kunal Biswas

In keeping with Indian armoured formations' threats i.e. Type 85-II, Type 90-II, Type 96, Type 99A1, Type 69-G Mk II and Al-Zarrar,

1) How does the Arjun's firepower score? Will it be able to penetrate the Type 90, 96 and 99 (Not worried about Al-Zarrar, 69 or 85 - post if you want)

2) Will Arjun Mk.II armour resist direct hits from the Type 99(Extra composites + NERA. Rate based on Mk.II armour which is undergoing trials)

3) How will Arjun perform in the deserts in case of poor visibility against Al-Zarrar, Type 85 and 90.

4) Are the electronics of the Arjun comparable to contemporary tanks?

5) How would you rate the accuracy of Arjun's gun? (Supposedly the APFSDS round hit the moving target when tank was stationary at a distance of 2 km with a new untrained gunner. Accuracy is stated to be 0.21 mil by OFB)

Also, what would you rate the Arjun as? A cheap tank or a costly tank? Is the Arjun Mk. II (6828461.00 dollars as of today - 6.8 million) worth it's money? Does the tank have a future?

Please refrain from criticism of the gun and armour as "not equal to international standards" or "Arjun is 80's/90's level" since even the Army doesn't criticise the tank as sub-standard since it is happy. The army and the army alone can say that the tank is below it's expectations.

Regards,
Keshav

1) penetration of Arjun gun is 300mm@2km, so it's probably around 350-400mm@0m.
the only know armour composition is of the type 96 which is said to be 180-220mm + 300mm air gap + 200mm RHA.
so the cheeks are essentially impenetrable for the arjun.
the roof is thin, but steeply sloped, so it's LOS thickness should be essentially similar to the front turret thickness, so also impenetrable.
pretty much the only weakspots for the arjun 120mm on the turret are the coax port, main gun, and the bulge in front of the TC's periscope
the hull is a bit uncertain, but if they follow russian design philosophy, expect the upper front hull to be as well protected as the turret, with the lower front hull being thinner.
on type 98, armour composition is unknown, it's even unknown whether it uses composites or not. but what we can assume is that it's "better" than the Type 96, so again, likely impenetrable.

2) Arjun front turret should be comparable to the leopard 2A4, about 650-700mm RHAe vs KE, so it should be able to withstand anything the chinese has in inventory in it's base configuration. front hull is stronger than leopard 2A4, so it should too be impenetrable to any chinese equipment.
only weakspot on arjun turret is the gunners sight area, and the small area under the gun, where it can be penetrated.
mk. II armour doesn't really improve performance, since the base armour is already impenetrable.

3)should be about equal, since all the tanks have thermals.

4) yes.

5) 0.21 mils is good, about as accurate as most contemporary guns. you should be able to hit a tank sized target at 2km with every round if you aim centerpoint.
against a stationary target you should be able to hit with 100% of your rounds, a moving target over 90% with a good gunner. however, it depends largely on whether the tank is concealed by terrain or in the open.

6)the price is similar to the new price of western designs, which has a comparable gun with better ammunition, and better protected ammunition storage.

a while ago germany was selling off large portions of it's leopard 2A4s. India could have bought these tanks instead for a fraction of the cost of an arjun, and upgraded them with the latest and greatest in electronics, desertized it with AC, installed kanchan, bought some proper ammunition, and had a better tank capable of actually penetrating enemy vehicles at all ranges.

 

[The Last Stand]

1) penetration of Arjun gun is 300mm@2km, so it's probably around 350-400mm@0m.

Err. Mr.Methos estimated it at 430 mm and Kunal Biswas sir showed that DRDO chief stated that it was 460 mm in an interview.

Based on the very few images actually showing the Indian 120 mm APFSDS it should be about ~480 mm long and have a diameter of about 28 mm. It seems like there is no public available source stating the deceleration (decrease of velocity), so I'd assume it would be 60 m/s/km (for reference, DM53: 55 m/s/km, M829A1: 65 m/s/km).
Such an APFSDS would then end up with a penetration of 430 mm into a 235 HB plate sloped at 60° at 2,000 m or 367 mm at 0°.
235 HB is however very soft steel, as used on the Patton (M47, M48 & M60) tanks. The Soviet T-72 uses reportedly 270 HB steel - then the armour penetration would decrease to 405 mm into a 60° sloped plate at 2,000 m and 347 mm into 270 HB steel at 0°.

a while ago germany was selling off large portions of it's leopard 2A4s. India could have bought these tanks instead for a fraction of the cost of an arjun, and upgraded them with the latest and greatest in electronics, desertized it with AC, installed kanchan, bought some proper ammunition, and had a better tank capable of actually penetrating enemy vehicles at all ranges.

Definitely agree. But Leopard 2A4 is an aged platform. Arjun is a milestone for Indian industry since we made a tank by ourselves. India's next tank will be much better and is supposed to have a 120 mm smoothbore gun. Russians, Polish, French supply electronics with no sweat. New 1500 HP and 1800 hp engines are undergoing development and blast doors and compartmentalized storage have already been made for Mk.2.

I don't doubt that we can get KEW-A4 or better after a little pleading. And who knows? Maybe the grand prize - The NPzK which Damian states to have performance in the range of 1m.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

The CVRDE, with IMI's help, has also redesigned the Arjun Mk1's turret to incorporate modular sloped armour fittings, and has developed a slat-armour package to protect the MBT against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks. It functions by placing a rigid barrier around the vehicle, which causes the shaped-charge warhead to explode at a relatively safe distance. For protecting the Arjun Mk2 against tandem-charge RPGs and guided anti-tank missiles, the CVRDE and IMI have co-developed a lightweight non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) package, comprising tiles in which two metal plates sandwich an inert liner, such as rubber. When struck by a shaped-charge's metal jet, some of the impact energy is dissipated into the inert liner layer, and the resulting high-pressure causes a localised bending or bulging of the plates in the area of the impact. As the plates bulge, the point of jet impact shifts with the plate-bulging, increasing the effective thickness of the armour

kunal if i am missing something please fill in

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@AVERAGE INDIAN, IMI is black listed, DRDO made slat Armour for BMP-2, Though Arjun MK2 use heavy ERA at front arc and will be incorporating hard-kill APS, Some of Arjun mk2 inputs will be applied to Arjun MK1 in means of Upgrades..

 

[Bornubus]

Every one of them, Except latest Type-99s..

All these Chinese tanks or Mutation of Russian tanks have serious flaw, they roof is exposed and inclined over frontal Armour >>

In this sense the frontal protection of these tanks are semi-protected, As long as roof is exposed it can be killed by an RPG-7 anti-Armour if its hit there..



=======================

Afaik, Chinese operate same kind of Israeli Rounds we use under OFB manufacture, The round can penetrate +500mm @2000meters, In that case Arjun MK-1/2 can survive direct hit at frontal Armour ( As we tested Arjun against same ammo during 2000 test at point blank range ) as long as its not over her Sight..

=======================

Arjun use Thermal Sights instead of Night Vision in bad desert environments and can detect enemy by there heat signature..



=======================

Yes, It does just MK1 does not feature BMS which will be rectified in near future, MK2 electronics rating is better than most regional tanks..

=======================

As there was an discussion about Arjun tank, three genrals agreed about Arjun superior accuracy over T-90S, Unfortunatly Vids are now gone, As It is Very accurate according to Army, During trails with T-90S Arjun preformed better in gunnery accuracy during Night specially and if we go by specs its better than T-90S..

^^ Result of the test, Shared by front-line from MOD, Look for Hit Probability to know about accuracy..



=======================

It should be cheaper if order in mass, Same for T-90S if we produce them in Arjun`s number it would have been costly..

Presently Tank is expensive but offer good preform-ace compare to T-72M1 & T-90S..

Is it true that Arjun's improved round maxes out at 300mm frontal penetration ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They targeted for 650mm of penetraion at 90degree, But right now at 500 - 460mm of RHA at 90 degree from 2000ms ..

Is it true that Arjun's improved round maxes out at 300mm frontal penetration ?

 

[Archer]

Its 500mm plus.. and there is the Lahat type CLGM for heavy armor

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Archer Ji, better than LAHAT ..