Arjun MBT Push by Parrikar?

[PaliwalWarrior]

what if any are the differences between

field guns
catapults guns
Howitzers

can anyone explain

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

also can anyone give tank composition

Reserve / Active Type of tank total nos good condition (nos) gone case (nos )

 

[ersakthivel]

Can anyone explain this obsession of the Indian Armed Forces to import sub standard hardware from abroad while not even considering the indigenous ones. We have read reports that the Indian armed forces are willing to dilute requirement procedures when it comes to foreign products (Arjun Tank vs T90) , (HAL Jet Trainer vs Pilatus).

Why is this so? Isn't this bordering on anti nationalism?

You can read the following article to know some home truths,

Broadsword: May 2012

Last week, the army chief declared in a television interview that he knew the WZT-3 ARV contract was a scam and BEML should be investigated in detail. He called the Tatra deal "a wake-up call for us to start examining other areas where things could have gone wrong".

But in February, BEML was nominated, without bidding, for the lucrative order for additional WZT-3 ARVs. Disregarded entirely was the fact that in three previous contracts for a total of 352 WZT-3 ARVs (44 in 1999; 80 in 2002; and 228 in 2005), BEML had disregarded the contractual stipulation to indigenise the ARV. Instead, the Indian defence public sector undertaking (DPSU) imported fully built ARVs from a Polish company, Bumar, fitted cosmetic Indian components and supplied these to the army.

The WZT-3 ARVs are essentially T-72 tanks kitted for repair and recovery, rather than for fighting. Instead of a gun and turret, the T-72 is fitted with a heavy-duty crane, winch and repair equipment. This allows the ARV to travel cross-country with tank columns, repairing tanks that break down.

Brig I M Singh says Ukraine then wrote in, offering their T-72 based ARV for trials. This was an attractive offer, since Ukraine was willing to use the T-72 chassis and running gear that India was already building near Chennai, while importing only the recovery gear. This, saysby Singh, would have made their ARV 30-40 per cent cheaper than the WZT-3. He put up an official proposal that the Ukrainian ARV be invited for trials, since this was a Rs 1,000-crore contract that should not go to a single bidder.

That idea was quickly shot down by the MGO himself, Lt General V K Jetley, whose brother, Colonel Virendar Jetley, had been employed by Bumar India, a joint venture between Bumar Poland and the New Delhi-based Chemon Group, headed by prominent Delhi cigar baron, Chetan Seth. "Within days, I was removed from the ARV cost negotiation committee," says Brig Singh.
Chetan Seth, interviewed by Business Standard, confirms Col Virendar Jetley was his employee. However, he denies any influence was exercised.

Arms dealers have long sought a link with the MGO's office, which controls a large chunk of the defence budget.

The owner of Vectra, Ravi Rishi, now under the CBI scanner in the Tatra case, employed two successive MGOs soon after they retired: Lt Gen R I S Kahlon, from the time he retired till his death last year; and Lt Gen S J S Saighal, who hit the limelight when Eurocopter, which employed his brother, Lt Gen H S Saighal, won a massive Indian contract for 197 light helicopters. The defence ministry overturned that decision after rivals protested.

With the contract for 228 WZT-3 signed in 2005, Bumar Poland began sending shiploads of ARVs to Mumbai. While BEML was supposed to indigenise these quickly, Brig I M Singh says BEML did absolutely no work on the ARVs.

"The Bumar ARVs did not even go to the BEML plant. When the ship from Poland reached Mumbai, we would send drivers to unload the ARVs. They would load the ARVs onto a train to Ordnance Depot, Kirkee, from where the frontline units would collect them," says Brig Singh.
Chetan Seth admits the ARVs never went to BEML but claims some Indian parts would be fitted onto the ARVs in Ordnance Depot, Kirkee. "It took some time, but we indigenised drivers' periscope sights; drivers' adjustable seats; periscopes; and radios. We had a team of five Polish engineers in Kirkee," avers Seth.

Approached for comments, BEML chief, V R S Natarajan, said he would respond in a press conference once the army chief retired. When pressed for answers, he asked for an emailed list of questions, to which he has not responded.

Meanwhile, another Chetan Seth company, Optic Electronics, was providing an illustration of how "indigenisation" worked in the WZT-3.

According to a senior Chetan Seth employee, Optic Electronics functioned from an SEZ in Noida, importing surplus parts from East Europe depots, touching these up, and then re-exporting them at a 500 per cent profit.


Ironically, the "indigenisation" of the WZT-3, which never crossed even 20 per cent, was being done through low-tech routes like ploughs, driver sights, towing ropes and seats, even as India was running a full T-72 tank manufacturing line at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, and building T-72 engines at the Engine Factory, Avadi.

Business Standard learned during a visit to Avadi last November that the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had quoted a price of Rs 40-50 lakh per engine for the WZT-3, but BEML rejected this as too high. Consequently, Bumar continues to source the engine from East Europe. The OFB's quote has also been rejected for the latest order for 204 WZT-3 ARVs, which bodes ill for any prospect of indigenisation.

The ministry of defence has not responded to an emailed request for comments.

Polish guys commenting disparagingly on Arjun in our forum may kindly note this article.

 

[ersakthivel]

IDRW articles come across as written by some amateur blogger. Even I have to pull myself to suffer through their poorly edited amalgamation of words. If whatever has been stated is true, then I can only hope it manifests as reality. More Arjuns will only make us more confident.

The guys commenting there are even more prejudiced.

I comment in the name of sakthi(discus) in most of those articles which clearly misrepresent all the facts to suit the motivated interests of journos. And rebut some of the prejudiced comments. I mostly copy my posts from tejas thread to rebut them. They go silent after a few stinging rebuttals.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Field Guns > A field gun is an artillery piece. Accompany a field army on the march and when in combat could be moved about the battlefield in response to changing circumstances, Modern gun-artillery such as the 105mm IFG light gun is used to provide fire support for infantry and armour at ranges where mortars are impractical.

Catapults guns > Catapult is a self-propelled gun developed in India by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment of DRDO. It is based on the conversion of Arjun MK1 tank's hull mounted with Russian 130mm M-46 field gun. Their can be any kind of Gun / Howitizer mounted in such configuration.

Howitzers > A howitzer is a type of artillery piece characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small propellant charges to propel projectiles at relatively high trajectories, with a steep angle of descent. A field howitzer is a howitzer that is mobile enough to accompany a field army on campaign. It is invariably provided with a wheeled carriage of some sort.

=============

Since World War II most of the artillery pieces adopted by land armies for attacking targets on land have combined the traditional characteristics of guns and howitzers—high muzzle velocity, long barrels, long range, multiple charges and maximum elevation angles greater than 45 degrees. The term "gun-howitzer" is sometimes used for these (e.g. in Russia); many nations use "howitzer" while the UK (and most members of The Commonwealth of Nations) calls them "guns", see, for example Gun, 105mm IFG.

what if any are the differences between

field guns
catapults guns
Howitzers

can anyone explain

============

Their are very little information classified on Net, From Net we know that T-72 and T-55 had serious issues from beginning ..

also can anyone give tank composition

Reserve / Active Type of tank total nos good condition (nos) gone case (nos )

 

[smestarz]

Field Guns > A field gun is an artillery piece. Accompany a field army on the march and when in combat could be moved about the battlefield in response to changing circumstances, Modern gun-artillery such as the 105mm IFG light gun is used to provide fire support for infantry and armour at ranges where mortars are impractical.

Catapults guns > Catapult is a self-propelled gun developed in India by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment of DRDO. It is based on the conversion of Arjun MK1 tank's hull mounted with Russian 130mm M-46 field gun. Their can be any kind of Gun / Howitizer mounted in such configuration.

Howitzers > A howitzer is a type of artillery piece characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small propellant charges to propel projectiles at relatively high trajectories, with a steep angle of descent. A field howitzer is a howitzer that is mobile enough to accompany a field army on campaign. It is invariably provided with a wheeled carriage of some sort.

=============

Since World War II most of the artillery pieces adopted by land armies for attacking targets on land have combined the traditional characteristics of guns and howitzers—high muzzle velocity, long barrels, long range, multiple charges and maximum elevation angles greater than 45 degrees. The term "gun-howitzer" is sometimes used for these (e.g. in Russia); many nations use "howitzer" while the UK (and most members of The Commonwealth of Nations) calls them "guns", see, for example Gun, 105mm IFG.



============

Their are very little information classified on Net, From Net we know that T-72 and T-55 had serious issues from beginning ..

Usually Tank guns are high power guns whose shells are designed to fire at high velocity to defeat the opposition tank armour. There are rounds that are used for use against other targets but not much. Tank guns are designed for flat trajectory.

A field gun on other hand is usually now 105 mm up (122 mm, 155 mm, 180 mm etc etc) these guns do not have high velocity and their main role is to fire High explosive shells. for shelling positions. These are not high velocity guns and hence not usually used for anti tank role. Field guns are low velocity guns (they do not need to engage tanks in flat trajectory)

The field guns come in Towed (a truck etc tows the gun and to fire the gun is first detached from the truck and then positioned and its axles spread, thus it has a fixed position on ground, and it takes more time to change position) Tracked ( the gun is mounted on tracked vehicle like a tank chasis, the advantage is that it is very mobile platform) and wheeled (usually mounted ON A heavy vehicle like truck or wheeled armoured carrier)

Catapult system is what can be termed as Self propelled (which can move with its own power) and in our case the chasis is Arjun Tank hence its TRACKED SYSTEM.

Howitzer is a field gun that is designed to be able to fire at higher elevation than 45 - 85 degree, thus in a way it is able to target enemy behind natural or artificial obstacle (like enemy behind a hill etc) these are low power guns which are able to fire heavy shells at long ranges.

If one uses anti tank gun (and ammo) against a building, the round will simply pass through the building due to its high velocity, but on other hand the field gun will be able to destroy the building with one shot

 

[sorcerer]

Heavy Vehicles Factory To Ramp Up Arjun Mark II Production

Capacity at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, which manufactures heavy battlefield equipment for Indian Army, is being increased significantly even as the factory is gearing up to manufacture Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II.

HVF is awaiting final confirmation from Army for Mark II, according to Hari Mohan, Senior General Manager. Some of the major components, chassis building, gear box and miscellaneous components will be part of the augmentation for which construction is going on and machinery is being procured, he told newspersons on the sidelines of a CII conference on Defence
Manufacturing Technologies on the theme ‘Defence Indigenisation – Window of Opportunities’.

Revenue Increase
Mohan said HVF is likely to report a 60 per cent increase in revenue to nearly ₹2,400 crore this year, and next year, it will be nearly ₹3,000 crore. “We have been booked by Indian Army till 2035,” he said.
HVF has nearly 300 industry partners, of which 100 are in Tamil Nadu. Mohan said there are many items that HVF is yet to indigenise. There is ample business opportunity for the private sector.

“There are also severe capacity limitations for our existing vendors,” he said.

For supplying a major component that goes under the chassis of the battle tank, HVF had only one vendor, and is now developing Lucas TVS as another source in Chennai. All the components that go into the tanks are very technology intensive. “No failure is acceptable, and this is a challenge,” he said.

Source>>

 

[kstriya]

Heavy Vehicles Factory To Ramp Up Arjun Mark II Production

Capacity at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, which manufactures heavy battlefield equipment for Indian Army, is being increased significantly even as the factory is gearing up to manufacture Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II.

HVF is awaiting final confirmation from Army for Mark II, according to Hari Mohan, Senior General Manager. Some of the major components, chassis building, gear box and miscellaneous components will be part of the augmentation for which construction is going on and machinery is being procured, he told newspersons on the sidelines of a CII conference on Defence
Manufacturing Technologies on the theme ‘Defence Indigenisation – Window of Opportunities’.

Revenue Increase
Mohan said HVF is likely to report a 60 per cent increase in revenue to nearly ₹2,400 crore this year, and next year, it will be nearly ₹3,000 crore. “We have been booked by Indian Army till 2035,” he said.
HVF has nearly 300 industry partners, of which 100 are in Tamil Nadu. Mohan said there are many items that HVF is yet to indigenise. There is ample business opportunity for the private sector.

“There are also severe capacity limitations for our existing vendors,” he said.

For supplying a major component that goes under the chassis of the battle tank, HVF had only one vendor, and is now developing Lucas TVS as another source in Chennai. All the components that go into the tanks are very technology intensive. “No failure is acceptable, and this is a challenge,” he said.

Source>>

First, the engine has to be localized. Simultaneously other subsystems. We need to order Arjun mk2 in hundreds before going in for a future variant a stealth one.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Just curious to add my opinion to above

What are the persisting issues in Arjun MK 2!!??

CLGM is the only issue in Arjun Mk 2 (I believe), which is also the case in T-90 s (Bhishma) the Invar missile saga(not sure weather issue resolved, gurus please shed light if issues resolved).

Now, after sorting Tejas numbers, Our DM (hoping so, and seems it is going on by this thread) will talk to generals "Get Arjuns, by the time you perfect tactics, we'll sort the CLGM issue" Don't worry about Railway's and infra we'll get them ready to handle Arjuns.

I think it will take a year or two by the time we manufacture Arjuns in large quantities.

hope we don't import anymore Bhishmas.

Gurus, please shed light on

1. Issues with Arjun Mk2 other than CLGM.
2. Any link providing the discussion between Army top BRASS and DM.

 

[Flame Thrower]

wrong post...............................

 

[Flame Thrower]

@Kunal Biswas

Bhai a layman's stupid question

Why not put Dhanush in old T-55 models and convert them into towed artillery??

Is it more costly to convert T-55s rather building new systems or spares supply is going to cause problem!!??

Or the T-55 chassis are in such a bad shape that, the're only to be used as target practice for testing our ammo and mssiles!!??

 

[pmaitra]

@Kunal Biswas

Bhai a layman's stupid question

Why not put Dhanush in old T-55 models and convert them into towed artillery??

Is it more costly to convert T-55s rather building new systems or spares supply is going to cause problem!!??

Or the T-55 chassis are in such a bad shape that, the're only to be used as target practice for testing our ammo and mssiles!!??

Some T-55s have been converted into minesweepers.

 

[Saichand K]

Just curious to add my opinion to above

What are the persisting issues in Arjun MK 2!!??

CLGM is the only issue in Arjun Mk 2 (I believe), which is also the case in T-90 s (Bhishma) the Invar missile saga(not sure weather issue resolved, gurus please shed light if issues resolved).

Now, after sorting Tejas numbers, Our DM (hoping so, and seems it is going on by this thread) will talk to generals "Get Arjuns, by the time you perfect tactics, we'll sort the CLGM issue" Don't worry about Railway's and infra we'll get them ready to handle Arjuns.

I think it will take a year or two by the time we manufacture Arjuns in large quantities.

hope we don't import anymore Bhishmas.

Gurus, please shed light on

1. Issues with Arjun Mk2 other than CLGM.
2. Any link providing the discussion between Army top BRASS and DM.

Army says Arjun is overweight, making it unusable and difficult to transport in many war scenarios. That I think is their main issue.

 

[Shaitan]

Watch this interview. MoD had to intervene to get Arjun's serviceability back to 70%. Did he really need to do this and spood feed them? Shows how much the army really care. 16:00

 

[Chinmoy]

@Kunal Biswas

Bhai a layman's stupid question

Why not put Dhanush in old T-55 models and convert them into towed artillery??

Is it more costly to convert T-55s rather building new systems or spares supply is going to cause problem!!??

Or the T-55 chassis are in such a bad shape that, the're only to be used as target practice for testing our ammo and mssiles!!??

Not a Good idea. You have to refurbish the turret to accommodate a 155mm howitzer then the original 100mm and along with it you would have to modify it structurally to hold against the tremendous recoil of the gun.