Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Blood Rain]

My dear Brother first of all RELAX,

I'm as relaxed as one can be, it's not my arse that would be on the line when shit hits the fan after all!!So why should I get restless, Brother??

I share mutual feelings if we speak about your afore mentioned post. Arjun any day and any time is BETTER then the TIN-90. But

Oh how much I like this word - Hugh Jackman rocks by the way.
It's the most important word in a sentence as anything said before it is just meaningless, ain't it Brother??
It's like saying to a gal, "Oh I like you very much dear, I can't even begin to describe how much I like you gal
(sorry, couldn't help it, lolz) you have got small titties and a fat ass, so I can't marry you, I'm sorry." That's exactly what you just did there!!

despite all the factors the bitter reality is that the entire ecosystem related to Armoured ops by Armoured Divs or RAPIDS which includes your Assalut Engineer Regiments

their BLTS (current inventory) is tailored arount the Tin-90s.

No offense but (yeah yeah, I know) I smell :bs:. Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Sarvatra ??By the way, I won't write them off as Tin-90s, they aren't really that bad, especially the Indian built ones as they are more heavily armored (the same armor package as that of Arjun), it's just that they are fitted with a completely outdated main gun as the we didn't get the tot for the 2A46M2 guns but my biggest bone of contention is their ammo stowage arrangement, which makes them metallic death traps on tracks!!

your understanding on Mil matter is zero specially in respect to the Tactics involved in Desert warfare

I don't disagree, I have basically zero idea about the orbat of the Indian Army's RAPID and strike formations and their intended objectives I know science, Physics to be more precise and that leads me to conclude that wherever a T72 monkey or a T 90S can reach an Arjun can reach even faster and with less difficulties due to a host of factors involved including the latter's superior power to weight ration, suspension, transmission and significantly less ground pressure!!Just because the T series tanks are lighter, doesn't make them more mobile!!

Yeah, I have got basically zero idea about operational doctrines of Indian Army (or any armies for that matter)
I have common sense, which tells me that the Pakistanis won't be dumb enough to leave their bridges intact for you people to capture them and then steamroll through their defenses on the other side!!I'm quite certain that they will have those bridges rigged in case the shit hits the fan and if the situation really turns that dire that they would need to withdraw to the other side, they will blow them sky high!!Because that's what I would do, that's what anyone with half a brain would do and that's what they did in 65!!So I don't see it panning out any differently in case any potential future stand off.

NOTE : I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL CAPABILITY OF A TANK!

Neither am I because I'm talking about the collective capabilities of the tanks and if you guys keep on insisting on your grand delusion of a fast moving heavy hitting ball busting (I'm running out of adjectives) below 50 tonners, then you guys will get collectively royally FUCKED both through your mouths and through arse simultaneously, figuratively speaking.

If you wish to discuss tactics and what is required for which all phase of attack which involves
1. crossing over your own DCBs
2. Contacting BOPS
3. Elimination of any ,LAT HAT element in enemy security and the
4. Approaching the Enemy DCB carrying out LEAN ON ops, BREAK IN OPS, BRIDGING AND THEN FINALLY BREAKING OUT

Ok, perdon my ignorance but what's so new and revealing about this part again??I mean where were you going with this??Did you really mean to say that a heavier tank won't be able to fulfill those tasks??Yeah right, since when the heavies began to perform better against enemy defenses except since FOREVER!!

The armour requirement type and kind, The authority with which you threw the gyan owing to pakis

First of all, I never threw any gyan as you put it!!What I threw is called assertions, it's called logical deduction, because logically that's what anyone would do unless they suffer from despotism!!Now, I projected it with such level of certainity because that's what they did in the past, so why would it be any difference is simply beyond me!!

iam wondering if you aware about thier Pattern nof ops and complete equipment profile because your message simply shows you are not.

Again, I'm not and why should I be??But that does not invalidate any of my earlier assertions!!I like how you like to issue such blanket statements and straw man fallacies without giving any proper reasons or even trying to refute other's claims or assertions.

I am all for Arjuns !! I am a myself a Arjun fan Specially MK2. But iam also aware about the resources which are required to be pumped in for supporting an operation of a RAPID with all Arjuns. Do we have the money at this stage NO!! But yes a new version with better design to replace T-72s in future is required before the Army falls for Armata. And DRDO has to provide the Tank on Time.

Again with the buts.Why don't you understand that what you are suggesting is simply impossible to achieve given our current level of knowledge and advancement in material sciences??!!It's not warthunder or marvel universe; it's real life; Stalinium or Vibrenium or any other such wonder niums which are lighter than paper but stronger than fucking universe does not exist!!The developers are limited by the number of elements present in this universe and they have to pick and choose form withing that list which means, you simply can not have the required level of protection unless you are willing to ramp up the overall weight of your platform, it's as simple as that!!Why do you think the nations which have got almost a century worth worth of experience in developing AFVs can not keep the weight bound withing the 50 ton mark, despite having tons of experience and resources??
Why do you think such lighter tank concepts like the American MGS or similar light mbt programs had to be shelved??
Why do you think even the Russians have discarded this below 50 tonner concept as their T 14s now weighs at close to 60 tons despite having a crewless turret??
Why do you think the Chinese equipped their elite tank units with ZTZ 99 variants which again weigh close to 60 tons??
Why do you reckon the Pakistanis were looking to buy the 62 ton Altay before the project got into trouble??
Why do you think all the western MBTs weigh over 65 tons with the successive trenches getting even heavier as the latest report suggests, the Abrams SEPV3 might well cross 72 ton mark??!!And so is the case with any NATO mbts as they will be getting heavier as well.
I'll tell you why - because in order to keep up with the ever evolving threat of various anti armor munitions, the developers are left with no other option but to bulk up the armor profile of their vehicles, which in turn would add weight, lots of 'em!!Because it is simply impossible to cater for the ever increasing threats without bulking up the weight, there is simply no way around!!As the saying goes, you can not have your cake and eat it as well, got it??
And as for money, then I suggest our Army to pull its socks up and start prioritizing its requirements!!World over, Armies usually build doctrines around their weapon systems and tweak their doctrine as they receive newer equipment but only in the Indian Army I see that they want systems to suit their doctrine!!This just goes to show the inherent lack of imagination and a galactic level of unwillingness to adapt to changing environments, as it demands hard works!!Frankly speaking, I find our Army top brass to be extremely unimaginative when it comes to formulating doctrines or a GSQR and it's disturbing to say the least.
The Army was operating just fine with their 54 ton Centurion MkVIIIs, then they made the transition to Vickers and T 55s and then they had no problems in changing their doctrines.I wonder why it has become such a huge problem now??I'm going exactly where you think I'm going, have no doubt about that, pal!!

But hey, don't listen to me buddy, I'm afuckking nobody who doesn't know anything about well, fucking anything!!Have it your way, get as many of your wunderwaffes 50 tonners as you want to.Just do not come complaining to the DRDO techies when the tankies start getting turned into gelly of biomass, their charred and mangled remains (if anything remains at all) start coming to their homes in sealed up coffins and the women in their families begin with which is perhaps the most disgusting and annoying thing I have ever experienced - the characteristic rona dhona on the top of their lungs with the usual bells and whistles that comes with it like rolling on the dirt and wild beating their chests like fuckking gorillas, the news channels broadcast those footage to the whole wide world and our nation and the army turned into laughing stock.

 

[Suryavanshi]

BRUH at least spoiler tag some of you're stuff some people are eating while browsing this forum

 

[Blood Rain]

Oh and before I forget -

One thing which I often learn in this forum is that, don't argue with someone who is idiot enough to see only his view point.

And you know what I learnt after joining this forum - that our country is literally infested with stuck up and opinionated rabid nationalists just like that fucking PEEDEEF!!It's the same deal packaged in different colour schemes, both sides trying desperately to defend whatever they hold dear to their hearts and all the logic and reason can just go fuck themselves in their bloody arse!!

Lets have a look at the ammos which are being developed for Arjun.

Yeah, let's.

120mm HESH and 120mm APFSDS. Now APFSDS is a round which is best in business against a heavy armour like a MBT.

Thanks Mr. Obvious, what would we do without you??!!

Against any other light armour or in case of a urban war scenario, a HESH is good enough.

No they aren't as those vehicles (except unarmoured lorries/ other vehicles) or structures can be made resistant against HESH rounds quite easily!!
And why do you even need HESH when programmable HE or FAE or just plain old HEF round can do the job just as good if not better??!!The level of bullshit in your argument is simply mind boggling, it's almost as if you do not even think what you type!!

You don't fire a Kinetic penetrator against a wall or a soft skin vehicle carrying anti tank ammo.

No shit Sherlock!!But why are you mentioning this right now, did I ever claim or even remotely implied any such thing??At this point, you are just trying to divert our attention away from the actual discussion but it won't work on me.

So when taking all this into perspective, one could see that both smooth bore as well as rifled gun could carry out the same with ease.

Yeah, only except an MBT's primary role is to engage and neutralize enemy amored formations and in that regard, the rifled guns lag way behind their smooth barrel counter parts!!And besides, you don't really need a fucking tank to blow up a column of an unarmored vehicles which can be done by the infantry itself.Even if you do decide to use your tank for such a role, then even in that regard, a smooth barrel gun will easily hold its own against a rifled gun and without bringing in the plethora of troubles that the rifled guns bring along!!

Talking about T-90, our front line MBT, we could see that we do produce 125mm APFSDS and 125mm HEAT round for it. Interestingly HEAT round is not being produced for Arjun. It clearly shows that Arjun is not intended to go on and take a Anti Tank role. This role is something which has been primarily reserved for T-90 and Arjun is only on second to it as of now.

Tu rahney dey yaar, tere se na ho payega!!

Now talking about accuracy for both, let me quote few people here

"It doesn't matter if you talk about single-shot pistols or battleship guns, a rifled barrel is always more accurate than a smooth bore."
Randy Hoagland, former Noncommissioned Officer for 27 Years, USMC & Army


"It all depends on the ammunition. If your primary target is other tanks and the ammunition is APFSDS rounds, smooth ore is obviously best. If the design tgreatvisctgecfull range of possible targets, including bunkers, emplacements, buildings etc, you want to include accurate long range HE capability, and might sacrifice some capability with sabotted rounds or use HEAT for anti armor. Rifled barrel equals more accuracy, smooth bore equals best possible muzzle velocity."

Bob Keeter, Retired flight test / systems engineer / engineering lead

Courtesy : Quora


So I would put my penny on these guys rather then someone who utters shit on each and every sentence.

Ho now brown cow, get off your high horse and get your feet on the ground sonny!!The first gentleman is a former infantryman, so his words in this context are simply irrelevant.If anything, I'm far more qualified on tank guns than he would ever be since I can at least understand and explain the basic physics and technicalities in work with a much authority owing to my Physics background!!And you get a big 0 in your try to con others once again by posting irrelevant stuff as that gentleman was clearly not talking about tank guns and you just took his words out of context just to win the argument and deliberately mislead the readers (the sheep I mean), you score 10 outta 10 on intellectual dishonesty though.
Moving on to the words of the next gentleman, this chap certainly knows what he's talking about and he clearly agrees with what I have to say, only except he forgot to mention that how the HESH rounds can be rendered ineffective rather easily and its role can be easily taken over by other readily available ammo types like programmable HE or FAE or multipurpose HEAT or even good old HEF, all of which can be fired with a smooth barrel gun just as accurately!!The Israeli APAM rounds bear testimony of this fact as it can reliably engage and destroy hardened field fortifications at over 2 km distance without any problems.Rounds like these have turned the HESH ammo completely redundant along with the rifled guns, just deal with it and apply some balm in sore ass you fucking mong!!

Now coming down to why Arjun MkII has retained its rifled main gun. There could be many reasons, but we could basically divide it into two.

1- For Good
2- For Bad.

Lets see for good reasons first.

Arjun was conceptualized in 1970. At that time we did have Vickers Mk1 (Vijayanta) with 105mm L7 rifled gun. Now if we do remember well, Arjun too had this 105 mm gun in its early prototypes. Now interestingly till 2008, the main gun barrel was imported rather then being indigenous along with other components. Please do have a look at the attached PDF.

Inspite of being a rifled gun when it was pitched against T-90 on test ground, it performed exceptionally well which prompted or should we say forced IA to order its serial production. Later when they asked for upgrade, smooth bore barrel is no where in the wish list. Moreover user never complained about the accuracy or killing power of the gun.

So apart from spare management, there must be something in doctrine and usage result of the Tank which has so far satisfied the user on Gun front atleast.

Now lets see for Bad reasons of retaining it.

Simply to bad mouth it on a later phase. It might be a deliberate attempt to keep a Achilles heel alive in the MBT to flounder later on. A rifled barrel is maintenance intensive along with being costly on production front. May be at a later date lobby would try to drag it on. But then again, with current capability to produce it in house, the ball would be rolling in user court rather then developers.

Another point which goes well against a rifled barrel is in inability to fire a CLGM. But that too had been overcame in case of Arjun with firing of LAHAT. Now IA is not satisfied with LAHAT as they wanted something with ability to engage at short distance.

So either way, IA would have a hard time to bad mouth Arjun on Gun front. They could always cry about it being over weight, but I have yet to come across a instance where they had uttered any thing against its killing power.

As I have no interest in dabbling in mere speculation, I'll just let you get away with this.

So basically when it comes down to have a smooth bore or a rifled gun, doctrine along with technicality plays a part.

A severe lack of foresight and unwillingness to adapt to the rapidly changing battle environments and evolving technologies are two things which played the central part in this fiasco.

As far as firing a certain type of round is concerned, till date designers have provided a way around to overcome those.

If you mean those experimental low twist rate rifled guns of yours then I'm afraid you are mistaken as those things never saw the light of the day for good reasons and they are nothing but some irrelevant relics, only fit for showcasing in museums at this point.

Be it specially designed APFSDS (more complex and expensive to manufacture, with significantly reduced kinematic performances just to name a few of the problems) more or a CLGM.

There, I completed your point.You're welcome.

So as far as it kills, no one on user front is complaining it seems.

And there in lies the mother of all fuck ups/ problems - they can not kill anything worth shit!!If they could, then we wouldn't be having this dog fight in the first place mind you.The present APFSDS round only does about 460 mm at 2 km while the LAHAT does ~800 mm, both of which are woefully inadequate even by late 80's standards!!

Its just some rabid infected user here

That's pretty high and mighty coming from the dishonesty personified!!

who froth on what they want to see instead of what is the practical use of it, who keeps on barking at a single point.

Oh I see the utter garbage of your points just fine kiddo, I just do not agree with them for reasons already explained in detail multiple times.
As for barking, that's the way I speak kiddo, I use a lot of swearing when I feel excited.You can't handle it, that's your problem, just suck it up.

 

[hammer head]

No offense but (yeah yeah, I know) I smell :bs:. Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Sarvatra ??By the way, I won't write them off as Tin-90s, they aren't really that bad, especially the Indian built ones as they are more heavily armored (the same armor package as that of Arjun), it's just that they are fitted with a completely outdated main gun as the we didn't get the tot for the 2A46M2 guns but my biggest bone of contention is their ammo stowage arrangement, which makes them metallic death traps on tracks!!

Your entire fucking post is full of vacuity and Bull shit, Yeah how many Sarvatras have been been inducted?? How many has the DRDO produced and with what fucking rate and handed over to the Army which is using the bloody obsolete AM-50S?? Why is it that fucking scientists at labs fail to provide the Army stuff they require on time instead of throwing crap here??You dont smell Crap their?? Going by your logic Arjuns armour has made it invincible?? Their are some 2500 T -72 which have been operated and almost equal no T-90s which have been the mainstay of the Armoured corps since donkey years, You wish to tell me that the Army should wait til eternity till science daan at DRDO come up with the best?? And thank you for the superficial concern about the tanks being a death trap, you can share the FUCKING CONCERN OF YOURS WITH YOUR FRIENDS AT THE LAB and ask them to deliver on time.

I know science, Physics to be more precise and that leads me to conclude that wherever a T72 monkey or a T 90S can reach an Arjun can reach even faster and with less difficulties due to a host of factors involved including the latter's superior power to weight ration, suspension, transmission and significantly less ground pressure!!Just because the T series tanks are lighter, doesn't make them more mobile!!

If science alone would have won the battles then US would have long back annihilated NOKO, Before vomiting your hatred towards a point at least have the patience to go through the post which i had made, Can you enlighten the readers here about how many Arjuns have been delivered and how good is the serviceability of the current nos?? This probably is not the platform to discuss the details and iam 100% sure your not fucking aware about it so think twice before shooting shit from your mouth. The battle is not fought on specs mentioned in Black and white.
I reiterate Tank battles are not fought in islotion you need a entire fucking logistic support system to support it, Do YOU HAVE IT?? DO YOU HAVE THE REQUISITE NOs?? YOU ARE AWAY FROM GROUND REALITY!!

I have common sense, which tells me that the Pakistanis won't be dumb enough to leave their bridges intact for you people to capture them and then steamroll through their defenses on the other side!!I'm quite certain that they will have those bridges rigged in case the shit hits the fan and if the situation really turns that dire that they would need to withdraw to the other side, they will blow them sky high!!Because that's what I would do, that's what anyone with half a brain would do and that's what they did in 65!!So I don't see it panning out any differently in case any potential future stand off.

You neither have common sense nor any knowledge of military history, Read the history and learn about fuckups which happend on the battlefield (65) sometimes owing to situations and sometimes cause of incompetence. Knowing the Tsun su you are its better you dont bloody prick on tactical aspects.

Neither am I because I'm talking about the collective capabilities of the tanks and if you guys keep on insisting on your grand delusion of a fast moving heavy hitting ball busting (I'm running out of adjectives) below 50 tonners, then you guys will get collectively royally FUCKED both through your mouths and through arse simultaneously, figuratively speaking

Stop acting like a fucktard the so called Grand Delusions of the Great Army has bought this country some of the most magnificent Tank battle Victories. And dont worry about the army buying the casualties ( Your words used for the army casualty reflect what lowlife scumbag you are) you can simply hide behind those screen and keep ranting.

Ok, perdon my ignorance but what's so new and revealing about this part again??I mean where were you going with this??Did you really mean to say that a heavier tank won't be able to fulfill those tasks??Yeah right, since when the heavies began to perform better against enemy defenses except since FOREVER!!

Its beyond your understanding.Leave it.

 

[Blood Rain]

OH-HO-HO HO-HO!!Somebody is ANGRY!!A-N-G-R-Y!!What happened kiddo, can't take a little sarcasm??Or did I hit a raw nerve there??

Your entire fucking post is full of vacuity and Bull shit,

Again with those blanket statements without citing any reasons or even trying to refute the assertions of the other side!!Complete lack of imagination and wit, as dull as they come.Moving on.........

Yeah how many Sarvatras have been been inducted??

As many as had been ordered I guess??!!How many of them were ordered, brother??Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question.

How many has the DRDO produced

ZERO!!You know why??I'll tell you why - because it's DRDO, Defence Research and Development Organization; not DRDMO - Defence Reasearch Development and MANUFACTURING Organization!!In other words, it's not their job to produce field deployable products,no!!Their job is to develop the core technologies and working prototypes and then hand them over to the industry (like OFB and BEL et al) and then it falls on them to turn those into deployable products, like DARPA of USA!!But you already knew that, didn't you, my dear Genral sahab??!!

and with what fucking rate

Again, it's not DRDO's job, they are not the producers!!Go take your gripe to the actual manufacturers, in this case the OFB!!
But then again, I doubt the blame would lie squarely on them because rate of production completely depends on the size of the actual order placed and given the numbers (as there are only so many Arjuns that have been ordered to date), again it's largely the fault of your top brass!!

and handed over to the Army which is using the bloody obsolete AM-50S??

And whose fault that is??Who are to blame for that - certainly not the techies of DRDO.They have their fair share of fuck ups but in this very regard, I doubt they are the ones to blame.

Why is it that fucking scientists at labs fail to provide the Army stuff they require on time instead of throwing crap here??

And why do you fucking Generals always keep changing the specs, there by shifting the goal posts every practically every fucking time!!
Let's just take Arjun's case for instance.At first, it was supposed to be a 45 ton vehicle, with 105 mm L7A3 main gun and when it was almost complete, suddenly the Army decided to completely redraw the GSQR and reject the first one out right, without ever putting it through the trials, citing reasons that "Oh Shit!!Those bloody Pakistanis are looking to buy the M1 Abrams and now we are fucked!!Our tanks can not match it!!We need a heavy ourselves!!" Lo and behold, they changed the goal posts and the years of planning and resources and R&D put into that project completely written off within a matter of seconds, just like that as they had to return to the drawing board and start from scratch!!
I wonder, if they were so much confident about the superiority of their medium tank platform, then why did they feel that so urgent of a need to get a heavy that they basically went completely bonkers??
Why did they fail to tank note of the developments that were happening world wide, there by failing to draw a proper GSQR accordingly??!!Why did they fail to anticipate that their nemesis might become interested in one such heavy platform?? And what picture does it draw of their professional competence may I ask??
And while we are at it, let's not forget about the lost decade that was the 90s!!Almost every project of the DRDO came to a virtual stand still due to sever lack of monetary resources, which went for almost a fucking decade!!But no, no one will ever care to mention that!!

You dont smell Crap their??

Dude, I'm most probably the most ardent critic of the DRDO around here, just check the previous pages!!I'[m the same @Blood+!!

Going by your logic Arjuns armour has made it invincible??

I never said that, heck I never even implied that!!But (ok, no more Hugh Jackman, however handsome he may be ) now that you mention it, it's kinda true as its actual armor (I'm not talking about the effective thickness mind you, as I'm not aware of its composition, so won't be drawing any conclusions) along the frontal hemisphere (except on the place in the right upper corner of the turret where the GMS is placed, that's a huge weak spot and the Army should have instructed them to reorient its position on the turret roof right at the very beginning; this just goes to show that neither the kshtryas of the Army nor the 'brahmins' of the CVRDE fully comprehend the proper design aspect of a funtional MBT!!) is a lot thicker (have seen a prototype from inside out) than that on board the T 90S and the T 72M1 is just another level of absolute junk as has been proven a multitude of times before.

But no, I wasn't talking about the armor but other safety features, which plays an equally important role in the survival of an mbt (or the apparent lack there of as far as the Russian mbts in service within Indian Army are concerned), like isolated ammo and fuel stowage!!In case of Arjun, if the ammo stowage gets hit, the worst is gonna happen is that you will lose your ammo load out and the tank would bee needed to send for repairs but if that happens to a T 72/90, then bye bye tank, bye bye crew as the tankies will be turned into human gelly and the remains of the tank will have to be sold as scrap metal!!No better way to put this

Their are some 2500 T -72 which have been operated and almost equal no T-90s which have been the mainstay of the Armoured corps since donkey years,

Which is most worrisome.

You wish to tell me that the Army should wait til eternity till science daan at DRDO come up with the best??

The "science daan at DRDO" as you refer to them, did come up with promising (not the best in the world by any means mind you but still a lot better than what you had ) products by 2008 itself.But we all know what happened in the subsequesnt AUCRT trials, don't we??It's an open secret by now, let's not travel there for now.

And thank you for the superficial concern about the tanks being a death trap,

Superficial or not, it's a fact.I know the reality is a bitter pill to swallow.You see, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I look like complete dog shit, and that's probably an understatement yet whenever someone says that to me, I find it rather hard to swallow!!So I know.

you can share the FUCKING CONCERN OF YOURS WITH YOUR FRIENDS AT THE LAB and ask them to deliver on time.

They are no friends of mine as I criticize them extremely harshly at a regular basis but I'm a just person and I do feel that credit has to be given where and when it's due.And they did deliver on time, the Army should have never ordered more than 700 T90s.

If science alone would have won the battles then US would have long back annihilated NOKO,

They can actually and it's because of science!!

Before vomiting your hatred towards a point at least have the patience to go through the post which i had made,

I did go through your post, that's how I tried to counter your every points on separate case by case manner!!It's you who has failed to live and act by his own words, so far!!

Can you enlighten the readers here about how many Arjuns have been delivered and how good is the serviceability of the current nos??

128 MkI and 118 MkIIs in all, as the Army ordered.And things like serviceability, percentage of in-house components and rate of production directly depends on the size of the order!!I mean who in their right mind would want to sink funds into r&d for the components when they know the product won't be ordered in big enough numbers because the end users are not committed to it??And why would they even care to set up servicing facilities for the individual components for such pitiful numbers of systems as they will never be able to break even??And again, why would anyone with half a brain even want to expand their existing manufacturing facilities to ramp up the production, for such a pathetically and pitifully small order??
In contrast, the Aselsan had already secured a firm order of 500 odd unites of its Altay MBT even when it hadn't left the drawing boards and virtually all of its components are supposed to be of imported origin but that did not seem to have deterred the Turkish Army!!Now that is called commitment!!Compared to that, the way our Army handled looked at this project, I simply find myself at a complete lack of words.
IIRC, there was a time when the OFB plant had been churning out almost 200 T 72M1 a year simply because there was a massive demand and they had also set up repairing and overhauling facilities for individual components as well but they would never do that for less than 250 odd vehicles because it would be cheaper to just ship them to the OEMs for repair works!!It's pure economics.
As the saying goes, war is too important to be left to the Generals, guess they should have added defence production as well as most generals can't seem to see beyond the end of their barrel, and given that they generally carry only side arms, it just adds a whole new perspective to the metaphor!!As the Germans came to learn lesson it the hard way during the WWII, only if Generals like Halder and Guderian could have actually follow their Führer's directive of going towards the South in the oil rich Caucasus instead of driving towards Moscow which had zero strategic value or actually crossing the Volga into the Stalingrad when there was no need for that!!But that's a debate best saved for another time and another place.Moral of the story is, do not think of them Generalks as infallible.

This probably is not the platform to discuss the details and iam 100% sure your not fucking aware about it

Yeah, lest it should reveal how much full of it you really are, ain't it General Sir??

so think twice before shooting shit from your mouth.

I don't know if you have noticed or not, but that's basically the only thing we do in here!!

The battle is not fought on specs mentioned in Black and white.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it does, to a great extent at least and the history is just full of such examples.
For examples, on paper, the T 34s should have been virtually impregnable to early short barreled Panzer III (upto J model but the later models also struggled to pen the fupper glacis plate) and Panzer IVs (upto F1 models) and the 37mm anti tank Pak guns and that's precisely what had happened in actual battlefield conditions as the German soldiers found out to heir horror!!
The same thing happened as the Centurions proved to be an extremely tough nut to crack from the front as the Pakis found out but their 20 pounder APDS had no trouble penning the M 47 and M48 Pattons right though their front plates even at distance, just like the spec board suggested!!
On the other hand, the M4 medium tanks and the AMX light tanks (too a lesser extent) were largely ineffective just like the spec boards had would suggest.
Then fast forward to 1990, Desert Storm and the History repeated itself when the American M1A1HA Abrams faced off the Iraqi T 72M1s (the same exact same monkey model variant that our Army has got in droves, not that the actual Russian variants are any better) and rest is history.And again, it panned out just like what the spec board suggested - Iraqi rounds simply bounced of the American tanks, While American rounds just went clean through the T 72M1s and well, vapourised the Iraqi tankies even before they could realize what had hit them!!They got turned into poodles of biomass in swift and violent explosions as their tanks got ammo racked (yeah yeah, I play a lot of Warthunder, go ahead make fun), their turrets are blown tens of feet high in the air like a fucking jack in the box And that's precisely the fate that is awaiting our tankies.
Need I go on any further with the examples??

I reiterate Tank battles are not fought in islotion

This may come as a surprise to you but (oh yeah) you are adding nothing new here.

you need a entire fucking logistic support system to support it,

No shit, General Obvious!!

Do YOU HAVE IT?? DO YOU HAVE THE REQUISITE NOs?? YOU ARE AWAY FROM GROUND REALITY!!

And failing to order the BLTs and ARVs in sufficient numbers despite their availability right in the country - whose fault that may be??Who are to blame for this gigantic level of fuck up??Please do not answer that.And please do not give that ususal "Oh we do not have the fundz" rhetoric, it doesn't really add up if one is to consider the fact that the army that can not even spend its annual allocations and has to return a sizable sum of money back to the finance ministry!!

You neither have common sense nor any knowledge of military history,

Oh really??!!Care to explain yourself General sir??!!Oh I'm sorry, can't ask a General to explain himself, perdon my insubordination, let me rephrase my statement.Would you be kind enough to amplify your statement a bit further for the dimwitted mortal being I truly am, General Sir??

Read the history and learn about fuckups which happend on the battlefield (65) sometimes owing to situations and sometimes cause of incompetence.

I gained most of my info wrt 65 from the official narrative of GoI!!So unless you can point out where I was wrong, your statement mean nothing or are you implying that the GoI has spread lies to fool the masses??!!Is that what you are implying, I won't be surprised though.

Knowing the Tsun su you are its better you dont bloody prick on tactical aspects.

Alright, can't disobey the direct order of a General, after all, I've got only one head on the top of my neck!!

Stop acting like a fucktard

Sorry but that ain't happening!!As the self proclaimed king of the fucktards, and the lowlife pricks, (and the tharkis) all around the world, I can't stop my monkey business, ain't gonna happen, cap'n!!

the so called Grand Delusions of the Great Army has bought this country some of the most magnificent Tank battle Victories.

More by sheer luck than anything else as the enemy acted like complete morons!!But in that one occasion where they did manage to put up an organized and coordinated and properly executed defensive action, well, we already know what happened to our 1st armored division, don't we??

And don't worry about the army buying the casualties

Oh do rest assured, I do not worry the slightest bit, mera kyaa jata hain??!!Like I had said before and I will reiterate once again, it's not my black ass that'd be on line once the shit hits the fan.

( Your words used for the army casualty reflect what lowlife scumbag you are)

Why??Because I can not sugar coat the bitter facts and I describe them as is what is??Should I have posted the graphic photographs of those mangled and charred remains of the poor Iraqi tankies instead, to get my message across??Or is it because I refer to our tank crews as 'tankies', that's not a derogatory term by the way??

Ok, in all likelihood, I probably am a disgusting sad little lowlife scumbag as you have put it (quite rightly so) but that simply won't change the ground realities and that being the present tanks in use by the Indian Army are potential furnaces of doom for their crews and abusing me (no matter how much justified you may be in doing so) won't change this rather sad fact of life.All it takes is just one lucky hit through the drivers hatch and it will pretty much seal the fate of the tank along with its crew, as they will die a horrific death, well, at least it will be quick but I'm not sure if that will be any comforting to the tankies.

you can simply hide behind those screen and keep ranting.

Fair enough but this begs the question, aren't you doing the same thing, General Sir??

Its beyond your understanding.Leave it.

As you say, my good General.It's not like I'm working on a commission here anyway.

 

[Blood Rain]

I'm as relaxed as one can be, it's not my arse that would be on the line when shit hits the fan after all!!So why should I get restless, Brother??

Oh how much I like this word - Hugh Jackman rocks by the way.
It's the most important word in a sentence as anything said before it is just meaningless, ain't it Brother??
It's like saying to a gal, "Oh I like you very much dear, I can't even begin to describe how much I like you gal
(sorry, couldn't help it, lolz) you have got small titties and a fat ass, so I can't marry you, I'm sorry." That's exactly what you just did there!!



No offense but (yeah yeah, I know) I smell :bs:. Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Sarvatra ??By the way, I won't write them off as Tin-90s, they aren't really that bad, especially the Indian built ones as they are more heavily armored (the same armor package as that of Arjun), it's just that they are fitted with a completely outdated main gun as the we didn't get the tot for the 2A46M2 guns but my biggest bone of contention is their ammo stowage arrangement, which makes them metallic death traps on tracks!!


I don't disagree, I have basically zero idea about the orbat of the Indian Army's RAPID and strike formations and their intended objectives I know science, Physics to be more precise and that leads me to conclude that wherever a T72 monkey or a T 90S can reach an Arjun can reach even faster and with less difficulties due to a host of factors involved including the latter's superior power to weight ration, suspension, transmission and significantly less ground pressure!!Just because the T series tanks are lighter, doesn't make them more mobile!!

Yeah, I have got basically zero idea about operational doctrines of Indian Army (or any armies for that matter)
I have common sense, which tells me that the Pakistanis won't be dumb enough to leave their bridges intact for you people to capture them and then steamroll through their defenses on the other side!!I'm quite certain that they will have those bridges rigged in case the shit hits the fan and if the situation really turns that dire that they would need to withdraw to the other side, they will blow them sky high!!Because that's what I would do, that's what anyone with half a brain would do and that's what they did in 65!!So I don't see it panning out any differently in case any potential future stand off.

Neither am I because I'm talking about the collective capabilities of the tanks and if you guys keep on insisting on your grand delusion of a fast moving heavy hitting ball busting (I'm running out of adjectives) below 50 tonners, then you guys will get collectively royally FUCKED both through your mouths and through arse simultaneously, figuratively speaking.

Ok, perdon my ignorance but what's so new and revealing about this part again??I mean where were you going with this??Did you really mean to say that a heavier tank won't be able to fulfill those tasks??Yeah right, since when the heavies began to perform better against enemy defenses except since FOREVER!!

First of all, I never threw any gyan as you put it!!What I threw is called assertions, it's called logical deduction, because logically that's what anyone would do unless they suffer from despotism!!Now, I projected it with such level of certainity because that's what they did in the past, so why would it be any difference is simply beyond me!!

Again, I'm not and why should I be??But that does not invalidate any of my earlier assertions!!I like how you like to issue such blanket statements and straw man fallacies without giving any proper reasons or even trying to refute other's claims or assertions.

Again with the buts.Why don't you understand that what you are suggesting is simply impossible to achieve given our current level of knowledge and advancement in material sciences??!!It's not warthunder or marvel universe; it's real life; Stalinium or Vibrenium or any other such wonder niums which are lighter than paper but stronger than fucking universe does not exist!!The developers are limited by the number of elements present in this universe and they have to pick and choose form withing that list which means, you simply can not have the required level of protection unless you are willing to ramp up the overall weight of your platform, it's as simple as that!!Why do you think the nations which have got almost a century worth worth of experience in developing AFVs can not keep the weight bound withing the 50 ton mark, despite having tons of experience and resources??
Why do you think such lighter tank concepts like the American MGS or similar light mbt programs had to be shelved??
Why do you think even the Russians have discarded this below 50 tonner concept as their T 14s now weighs at close to 60 tons despite having a crewless turret??
Why do you think the Chinese equipped their elite tank units with ZTZ 99 variants which again weigh close to 60 tons??
Why do you reckon the Pakistanis were looking to buy the 62 ton Altay before the project got into trouble??
Why do you think all the western MBTs weigh over 65 tons with the successive trenches getting even heavier as the latest report suggests, the Abrams SEPV3 might well cross 72 ton mark??!!And so is the case with any NATO mbts as they will be getting heavier as well.
I'll tell you why - because in order to keep up with the ever evolving threat of various anti armor munitions, the developers are left with no other option but to bulk up the armor profile of their vehicles, which in turn would add weight, lots of 'em!!Because it is simply impossible to cater for the ever increasing threats without bulking up the weight, there is simply no way around!!As the saying goes, you can not have your cake and eat it as well, got it??
And as for money, then I suggest our Army to pull its socks up and start prioritizing its requirements!!World over, Armies usually build doctrines around their weapon systems and tweak their doctrine as they receive newer equipment but only in the Indian Army I see that they want systems to suit their doctrine!!This just goes to show the inherent lack of imagination and a galactic level of unwillingness to adapt to changing environments, as it demands hard works!!Frankly speaking, I find our Army top brass to be extremely unimaginative when it comes to formulating doctrines or a GSQR and it's disturbing to say the least.
The Army was operating just fine with their 54 ton Centurion MkVIIIs, then they made the transition to Vickers and T 55s and then they had no problems in changing their doctrines.I wonder why it has become such a huge problem now??I'm going exactly where you think I'm going, have no doubt about that, pal!!

But hey, don't listen to me buddy, I'm afuckking nobody who doesn't know anything about well, fucking anything!!Have it your way, get as many of your wunderwaffes 50 tonners as you want to.Just do not come complaining to the DRDO techies when the tankies start getting turned into gelly of biomass, their charred and mangled remains (if anything remains at all) start coming to their homes in sealed up coffins and the women in their families begin with which is perhaps the most disgusting and annoying thing I have ever experienced - the characteristic rona dhona on the top of their lungs with the usual bells and whistles that comes with it like rolling on the dirt and wild beating their chests like fuckking gorillas, the news channels broadcast those footage to the whole wide world and our nation and the army turned into laughing stock.

"Edited by a moderator" - For fucks sake!!This whole god damn forum is infested with a bunch of big pussies!!Come the fuck on guys!!We are all grown ups around here, you guys can't even take a harmless little joke, seriously??So much problem with a butt pic??!!Really??!!How old are you??You folks are acting like as if that's the root cause behind all the worldly problems and editing it out was the top priority or the whole world would come crushing in on our heads!!Just stop being such big pussies, will ya??The level of self righteousness around here is just sickening to say the least!!

 

[SELVAM]

No more Russian junks.

........
...........

 

[Blood Rain]

No more Russian junks.

........
...........

Well, the T14 Armata is a great vehicle though.

 

[indiatester]

"Edited by a moderator" - For fucks sake!!This whole god damn forum is infested with a bunch of big pussies!!Come the fuck on guys!!We are all grown ups around here, you guys can't even take a harmless little joke, seriously??So much problem with a butt pic??!!Really??!!How old are you??You folks are acting like as if that's the root cause behind all the worldly problems and editing it out was the top priority or the whole world would come crushing in on our heads!!Just stop being such big pussies, will ya??The level of self righteousness around here is just sickening to say the least!!

Dude/Bro,
I have kids who come by and read some of these messages. They are at an impressionable age. So, some decency wouldn't hurt would it.
Would you want your kids to read those words and asking what they mean or for that matter why those pictures mean. I am assuming you are old enough and have kids.

 

[Adioz]

@hammer head @Blood+ @Blood Rain guys calm down. Arjun MkII weight is coming down slowly. According to latest news, Arjun MkII is getting rubber wheels. I think Army is pushing the DRDO team extra hard and making excuses because they do not have the funds to replace 30 regiments of T-72 tanks right now (see this thread: DEATH BY BUDGET: Is This The Indian Army’s Angriest Report To Government?) and because the Army thinks that by doing so, DRDO will work extra hard to bring down the weight. They will begin inducting Arjun MkII under FRCV in mid-2020s. Until then, DRDO would have worked the weight down to 60 tons. Army will accept the tank. And will also upgrade the equipment of engineer support with Sarvatra, etc.

 

[Blood Rain]

Dude/Bro,
I have kids who come by and read some of these messages. They are at an impressionable age. So, some decency wouldn't hurt would it.

Ok, I didn't think of it from that angle and now that you mentioned it, I see the point.

Would you want your kids to read those words and asking what they mean or for that matter why those pictures mean.

Well, why not, as long as they do not start to get any wrong ideas.

I am assuming you are old enough and have kids.

I'm 23, dude!!

 

[Blood Rain]

@hammer head @Blood+ @Blood Rain guys calm down.

Dude, I was as calm as they come, did my posts really give out any angry vibes??I was in joking mood through out that war of the words.It was only the other party that got extra edgy and started with the name callings and verbal abuses and swearing, and to be frank, I'm okay with that because I do it all the time, no hard feelings there.

Arjun MkII weight is coming down slowly.

It can be reduced to an extent like by using composite road wheels instead of steel ones, rubber tracks (those are actually sturdier than steel tracks and last somewhat longer!!Who would have thought??), and also by making the turret a bit smaller.As things stand today, the internal volume of the turret is just way too much.The crew compartment has to be made a little less spacious, sure it will get more cramped but the weight that can be shaved off there can be used to add more thickness to the armor plating.Sure, it will get more uncomfortable but when it comes to the choice between crew survivability and crew comfort, I'll always pick the first one as long as it doesn't come in the way of their operation.
Oh and also, by changing the transmission set, the present one from Renk is of somewhat dated design and lighter and more compact systems have already been developed, especially by the Ukrainians.

But that's beside the point.The thing is, you can reduce the weight only so much before you start to compromise with armor protection, there way around it, you just can't have everything!!You want to advance somewhere, you have to make compromise somewhere else!!The tanks world wide are getting heavier by each successive trench and this this trend will continue and sooner or later, Indian Army top brass will have to bite the bullet or in the future, they will end up biting the dust!!

According to latest news, Arjun MkII is getting rubber wheels.

I do not know about that, somehow I don't feel very confident about the veracity of that news, composite wheels may be??

I think Army is pushing the DRDO team extra hard

There is nothing bad with that but I think they are pushing them in the wrong direction I'm afraid.

and making excuses because they do not have the funds to replace 30 regiments of T-72 tanks right now (see this thread: DEATH BY BUDGET: Is This The Indian Army’s Angriest Report To Government?)

Yeah but the blame lies squarely on the Indian top brass, no two way to put it!!I mean, sure, when the Pakistanis got the 320 odd T 80UDs, they needed to act and fast and the T 90S was the only logical choice.But they just went over board with it and eventually ended up ordering close to 2000 units when logically, the order should have been capped at 700 units, ok may be 800 but certainly not more than that!!
And I don't see the Army top brass pushing the Russians for the sub standard product they sold to them!!They didn't provide us with the Guns, the FCS, the armor!!Their vectronics were not hardened for the desert environment but I don't see Army pressing the Russians to rectify that!!They were perfectly fine, as if it didn't matter at all but they would press their own country men to the ground without any remorse for the most triflest of the reasons!!I don't know about anyone else but to me at least and I do not wanna come off as a conspiracy peddler but that does not paint the best picture about their intentions.

and because the Army thinks that by doing so, DRDO will work extra hard to bring down the weight.

Like I said, pushing towards the wrong direction and ultimately, it will be the poor belly crawlers who will have to pay the price with their lives I fear.I mean, weight should be the least of their concern when the entire tank is literally filled with far more serious design flaws which may render it vulnerable and should have been rectified more than a decade ago already.I can list them flaws point by point but what be the point of raising those points?? (pun intended).

They will begin inducting Arjun MkII under FRCV in mid-2020s.

I highly doubt that, sorry if I come off as cynical.

Until then, DRDO would have worked the weight down to 60 tons. Army will accept the tank.

Let's wait and watch but like I said, doubtful to say the least.I don't feel very optimistic.

And will also upgrade the equipment of engineer support with Sarvatra, etc.

Should have been done years ago but somehow I doubt the Army will do what you are suggesting.I've simply given up on them.

 

[indiatester]

Ok, I didn't think of it from that angle and now that you mentioned it, I see the point.

Thank you

Well, why not, as long as they do not start to get any wrong ideas.

One has recently learnt to clean his bottom himself and has a good circle where they have heard the f word and are rearing to use it. The other one goes full monty as frequently as he can.
They will get only the wrong ideas.

I'm 23, dude!!

Well hit 10 more (hopefully with kids) and you will afraid of watching an underwear ad.
But then we digress.

Regarding the points you have raised. All of them were raised earlier too.
None of them moved the IA enough to change what they think is necessary.
If I were the developer, I will shelve the product and move on (I will raise a stink though). Let the IA explain why it wants what it wants to the political leadership.

 

[Blood Rain]

Thank you

Don't mention it man.

One has recently learnt to clean his bottom himself

Oh, so a wee one, I like them the most, the cleanest of the slates.

and has a good circle where they have heard the f word and are rearing to use it.

The other one goes full monty as frequently as he can.[/QUOTE]
Lolzz!!I would sure like to meet that squirt one day, he's gonna like me as well.

They will get only the wrong ideas.

True that.

Well hit 10 more (hopefully with kids) and you will afraid of watching an underwear ad.

I don't think any girl would ever wanna be with someone like I, so I'll be fine as far as underwear ads are concerned!! But then we digress.

Regarding the points you have raised. All of them were raised earlier too.

By me and that Polish fellar, forgot his name.

None of them moved the IA enough to change what they think is necessary.

And nothing will, rest assured, they simply lack the imagination.

If I were the developer, I will shelve the product and move on (I will raise a stink though). Let the IA explain why it wants what it wants to the political leadership.

Damn right!!

 

[Adioz]

It can be reduced to an extent like by using composite road wheels instead of steel ones, rubber tracks (those are actually sturdier than steel tracks and last somewhat longer!!Who would have thought??), and also by making the turret a bit smaller.As things stand today, the internal volume of the turret is just way too much.The crew compartment has to be made a little less spacious, sure it will get more cramped but the weight that can be shaved off there can be used to add more thickness to the armor plating.Sure, it will get more uncomfortable but when it comes to the choice between crew survivability and crew comfort, I'll always pick the first one as long as it doesn't come in the way of their operation.
Oh and also, by changing the transmission set, the present one from Renk is of somewhat dated design and lighter and more compact systems have already been developed, especially by the Ukrainians.

But that's beside the point.The thing is, you can reduce the weight only so much before you start to compromise with armor protection, there way around it, you just can't have everything!!You want to advance somewhere, you have to make compromise somewhere else!!The tanks world wide are getting heavier by each successive trench and this this trend will continue and sooner or later, Indian Army top brass will have to bite the bullet or in the future, they will end up biting the dust!!

I do not know about that, somehow I don't feel very confident about the veracity of that news, composite wheels may be??

Rubber composite. Source here:-

So here it is as promised.
[P.S. Arjun MK.II MBT = A2 (Bas aise he)]

Weight of each steel road wheel of A2 = 63kg
Weight of each rim wheel of of A2 = 15kg
____________

Each Rubber Composite (RC) Road Wheel = 45kg
Each Rubber Composite (RC) Rim Wheel = 5kg
View attachment 23674
_________________
Each A2 have 32 Road Wheels and 16 Rim Wheels. 2 Road Wheels are stacked together.

View attachment 23675

Meaning on each side A2 has 16 Road Wheels and 8 Rim Wheels
____________
Calculation of Weight Reduction of A2

Steel Road Wheels + Steel Rim Wheels
= (63 x 32) + (15 x 16)
= 2016 + 240
= 2256 kg

RC Road Wheels + RC Rim Wheels
= (45 x 32) + (5 x 16)
= 1440 + 80
= 1520 kg

Total weight reduction
= 2256 - 1520
= 736kg

So the weight reduction is a huge 740kg on just wheels. It doesn't even includes weight reduction of using composites + high nitrogen steel on chassis and a possible rubber composite track as well.

Just in case if you are thinking if Arjun really have 32 road wheels? Here's some help. 8 wheels are visible here. Two wheels are stacked together. And same goes to opposite side.
View attachment 23678

We can surely expect 6-8 ton reduction of weight of Arjun Mk. II MBT by last quarter of this year, and hopefully with indigenous 1500hp engine.

And weight reduction drive going on in full swing. See here:-

I think it is a paid article to bad mouth Arjun ....as i remember last July when i spoke at an CVRDE guy associated with the Arjun program at Chennai he said specifically that they have successfully shaved off 3 tonnes of Mk2.... at that time they were testing an all electric drive instead of hydraulic drive....All Electric drive is of reduced weight when compared to the hydraulic one....in fact i saw the testing vehicle having weight ballast to compensate for the reduced electric drive weight for testing purpose ....3 ton weight reduction doesn't include weight offset by electric drive.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tank-mbt-mark-ii.51358/page-80#post-1338513

Should have been done years ago but somehow I doubt the Army will do what you are suggesting.I've simply given up on them.

My hope will never die

 

[WolfPack86]

Arjun Mk 2 update: Indian Army
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[darshan978]

Arjun Mk 2 update: Indian Army
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

who is owner of this page? idiot blocked me for no reason

 

[cyclops]

Why Tanks Need 4 Crew Members, Not 3
By
COL. RICH CREED, U.S. ARMY
on March 15, 2018
T&P ON FACEBOOK


Having spent a lot of time on tanks, I would argue that pursuing technical solutions that don’t account for the human dimension of sustained ground combat is a mistake. The four-soldier crew gives flexibility that three cannot.

Pulling local security is a real requirement inside a tactical assembly area. Doing so while maintaining weapons, conducting maintenance, eating, and getting some sleep is already tough. When in radio listening silence you need a runner, and during tactical road marches you need an air guard.

Tankers actually dismount more often than one might think. They often must ground guide their vehicles through constricted terrain. Someone must often get on the ground to talk infantry or others, not on one’s radio net.

Maintenance is a physically demanding team sport, and everyone in the crew plays a role in it. More hands make heavy work less so. Having three on your crew is really not that rare given the vagaries of the personnel system, so most crews have dealt with that problem during training. Their opinion about four being better than three is well informed by personal experience.

Stuff stops working on big complicated vehicles all the time and you generally train to work around fire control system failures and the loss of a crewman. How you could work around a broken autoloader is difficult to imagine. You can fight a manually loaded main gun even without turret or engine power. One assumes an automatic loader requires power.



When replacing track on an Abrams a four-person crew can get by, but smart platoons generally pitch in as a team effort. It is a miserable experience, regardless, especially under field conditions in bad weather. Recovery of damaged or broken vehicles is also a lot easier when you have more hands. And local security remains a requirement during recovery operations, so every soldier matters.


Col. Rich Creed is director of the Army’s Combined Arms Directorate at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. A career armor officer, he has deployed to Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan. This article represents his own views, which are not necessarily those of the U.S. Army or the Department of Defense.


https://taskandpurpose.com/army-tanks-crew-members/

 

[WolfPack86]

Who do you blame for the Arjun tank’s unending troubles? Join the discussion here on our latest report & have your say:
https://twitter.com/livefist?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[Guest]

@hammer head @Blood+ @Blood Rain guys calm down. Arjun MkII weight is coming down slowly. According to latest news, Arjun MkII is getting rubber wheels. I think Army is pushing the DRDO team extra hard and making excuses because they do not have the funds to replace 30 regiments of T-72 tanks right now (see this thread: DEATH BY BUDGET: Is This The Indian Army’s Angriest Report To Government?) and because the Army thinks that by doing so, DRDO will work extra hard to bring down the weight. They will begin inducting Arjun MkII under FRCV in mid-2020s. Until then, DRDO would have worked the weight down to 60 tons. Army will accept the tank. And will also upgrade the equipment of engineer support with Sarvatra, etc.

DRDO should try and do out of box thinking, just weight reduction is not going to help. They should IMO.

• Offer Arjun MkII with a refined Hull capable of meeting future tank requirements, IMO the hull is very good and It can be reformed and hence configured for future use as next gen tank or SPH or Missile carrier. Armata already has 7 wheel hulls and It should be clear that in future protection of highly trained crew is going to be main concern.
• Develop a Hard kill Active protection system, this is not very hard and they would have to it anyway for future IFVs and MBTs. Arjun due to Its size will prove to be a good platform to test and verify the technology.
• In future develop an unmanned turret to replace the manned on in existing platform, this alone would increase the protection much more and reduce the wight significantly, similar unmanned upper sections can be developed of or Howitzers and Missile launchers like QR-SAM, and NAG etc.
• Army will not commit until there are shown with future road map, designing a new hull on six wheel will be time consuming and will show little space or crew, engine and batteries, auto-loader etc. And then Army will ask for a bigger hull.
• Arjun MkII should be presented as such that after 15 years It can still be used as MBT and not dumped for FMBT.