Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[tharun]

Come on, they gave the license to fucking Turks for crying out loud, so we should qualify without any hassle I would wager

So what?
They will never give us because they will think we will pass the barrel tech to russia .

That seems more reasonable, given the L/44 has around 1200 EFC.

That 1500 number was published in US military technical paper.

 

[Vinod DX9]

Does the Mk2 Arjun have a Barrel Bend Detector? If yes, where is the sensor for the same?

well for that we use Boroscope...a robot, which runs on blue tooth connection and can be operated via android app!

 

[Blood+]

On the topic of rifled vs smoothbore main guns, one can't really make a standalone statement unless all factors and variables are taken into consideration. Taken piecemeal, facts pose differing stances.

I would beg to differ.No matter how you look at things and how many variables you take into consideration, the result is completely black and white and the righting is on the wall.As things stands now, the rifled guns provide no advantage over their smooth barrel counterparts whatsoever (strictly talking about tank application) but is marred with a plethora of cons as most nations have already figured out long since!!

Rifled barrel makes projectiles more accurate than a smoothbore gun, but as the length to diameter ratio of the projectile increases, the stability decreases and after a point becomes negative.

Exactly!!ow tell me what is the primary role of an MBT at least in the first few days of a conflict - it's engaging and neutralizing enemy armor, and in that regard, rifled guns create a lot of hindrance without providing any significant advantage in other areas!!And that's the primary reason why the rifled gun on Arjuns needed to go away more than a decade ago.

Crosswinds pushing on a flat fin surface exert more deflecting force than it does via magnus effect onto a spinning cylinder, thus affecting accuracy more.

True.

Rifled barrels limit chamber pressure, hence muzzle velocity. Reduced velocity projectiles have lesser penetration. Royal Ordnance L30 muzzle velocity is around 1500m/s where Rhinemetall L/55 120mm muzzle velocity is around 1800m/s

True as well.

History's longest recorded tank kill was done by a Challenger 2 with a Fin round through it's L30, at almost 5km distance.

That one is incorrect.The Iraqi T 72M1 was in fact taken out by a HESH round.By the way, the Iraqi tank was completely stationary in its dug out (as the Iraqis had been using their tanks like artillery), the Challenger didn't even have a clear line of sight and they actually hit their target through bracketing fire, like artillery/mortar crews usually, and the fire correction was done by British artillery officer who happened to be present somewhere near the T 72M1.It's not like the Challenger took out the T 72M1 with a single shot like most people believe.A HESH round hit the driver's hatch and the resulting spalling ignited the ammo stowed in the hull.

There are very few manufacturers making Rifled gun rounds, limiting user choice.

Couldn't have agreed more.

Smoothbore HEAT and HE-FRAG rounds have worse accuracy than rifled ones.

The Israelis and the Germans would differ.

Effect on target for HEAT is reduced cause the spin disperses the jet laterally.

Spot on.

HESH rounds are effective against concrete and RHA, and perform best when spun, but it's completely defeated when used against spaced armor.

Well, concrete bunkers and lightly armored vehicles can also be defeated by using programmable HE or Thermobaric rounds and in fact, these two rounds are far more effective in defeating such targets as they are not so easy to defend against unlike HESH which can be defeated pretty easily.
I mean you do not even need a huge amount of resources to make your field fortifications HESH proof as all you would need to do is raise outer walls around your bunkers, constructed from locally available materials such as timber, mud and rocks and leave may be 6 inches of air gap between the outer and inner walls and voila.The Pakistanis have done the same thing on their LOC fortifications!!

Fire control computers can provide more precise and fast firing solutions for rifled guns cause the variable environmental factors affecting accuracy have lesser degree of effect on the projectile.

So not true, because HE or other types of rounds can be spun just as easily by adding retractable fins canted at more angle.

Ultimately it all comes down to established doctrine and the user requirement. All other factors being neutral, if I am asked to choose a gun for the IA tank regiments meant to face enemy armor, I'd choose smoothbore L/55 cause OFB can't make effective AP ammo and there are a variety of it available in the international arms bazaar, both white and black. On the other hand if I am asked to choose a gun for a light to medium weight AFV, meant primarily for infantry support and blasting fortifications, I'd choose a rifled gun cause FRAG and HESH ammo shoots better out of it and the effect on target are excellent. Just goes to show it's not all cut and dried.

Agreed except the HESH part, it has become completely outdated and anything it can do, the programmable HE or Thermobaric rounds can do it much better and they can be fired through smooth barrel guns without any significant loss in accuracy.So rifled guns should not be retained merely because of their abilities to fire an outdated type of ammunition!!

 

[Blood+]

So what?
They will never give us because they will think we will pass the barrel tech to russia .

For once, stop being so paranoid, will ya??By that logic, the Turks could give the tot to Pak which then would invariably end up in the hands of Chinese, heck at one point, there was serious talk going on between Turkey and Pakistan for Altay MBT but that didn't stop the Germans from going on with the deal!!Again, stop being so paranoid.

That 1500 number was published in US military technical paper.

I see.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I would beg to differ.No matter how you look at things and how many variables you take into consideration, the result is completely black and white and the righting is on the wall.As things stands now, the rifled guns provide no advantage over their smooth barrel counterparts whatsoever (strictly talking about tank application) but is marred with a plethora of cons as most nations have already figured out long since!!

For once, stop being so paranoid, will ya??By that logic, the Turks could give the tot to Pak which then would invariably end up in the hands of Chinese, heck at one point, there was serious talk going on between Turkey and Pakistan for Altay MBT but that didn't stop the Germans from going on with the deal!!Again, stop being so paranoid.


I see.

Not every factor affecting the final verdict is a technical reason. Politics both at macro and micro level, allocated budget, vision of the army top brass, marketing tactics by defence contractors all play a role.

It's true the Challenger 2 Kill was more lucky than anything else, but you can bet BAE would aggressively use that and peddle the accuracy angle to a potential client. Similarly an IA armored corps senior officer who took part in the 60s and 70s tank battles with 105 L7s, could personally be partial to a rifled gun, and people like these decide on the doctrine. You get the point.

And as a side note on the Leopard 2, or it's techs, Germany has a pretty high horse. They refused to sell Saudi Arabia Leopards on the ground of Saudis having a bad human rights record, and the Arabs bought more Abrams. HK pulled the same card when Indian BSF or CRPF were looking for some small arms. And now there's the mess of Turkey blackmailing Germany to provide post 2A4 upgrades with a German citizen political prisoner, while Germany's domestic political scene is hot with the fact of Turkish Leopards being used against Syrian Kurds.

 

[Chinmoy]

One thing which I often learn in this forum is that, don't argue with someone who is idiot enough to see only his view point.

Lets have a look at the ammos which are being developed for Arjun.

120mm HESH and 120mm APFSDS. Now APFSDS is a round which is best in business against a heavy armour like a MBT. Against any other light armour or in case of a urban war scenario, a HESH is good enough. You don't fire a Kinetic penetrator against a wall or a soft skin vehicle carrying anti tank ammo. So when taking all this into perspective, one could see that both smooth bore as well as rifled gun could carry out the same with ease.

Talking about T-90, our front line MBT, we could see that we do produce 125mm APFSDS and 125mm HEAT round for it. Interestingly HEAT round is not being produced for Arjun. It clearly shows that Arjun is not intended to go on and take a Anti Tank role. This role is something which has been primarily reserved for T-90 and Arjun is only on second to it as of now.

Now talking about accuracy for both, let me quote few people here.

It doesn't matter if you talk about single-shot pistols or battleship guns, a rifled barrel is always more accurate than a smooth bore.

Randy Hoagland, former Noncommissioned Officer for 27 Years, USMC & Army

It all depends on the ammunition. If your primary target is other tanks and the ammunition is APFSDS rounds, smooth ore is obviously best. If the design tgreatvisctgecfull range of possible targets, including bunkers, emplacements, buildings etc, you want to include accurate long range HE capability, and might sacrifice some capability with sabotted rounds or use HEAT for anti armor. Rifled barrel equals more accuracy, smooth bore equals best possible muzzle velocity.

Bob Keeter, Retired flight test / systems engineer / engineering lead

Courtesy : Quora

So I would put my penny on these guys rather then someone who utters shit on each and every sentence.

Now coming down to why Arjun MkII has retained its rifled main gun. There could be many reasons, but we could basically divide it into two.

1- For Good
2- For Bad.

Lets see for good reasons first.

Arjun was conceptualized in 1970. At that time we did have Vickers Mk1 (Vijayanta) with 105mm L7 rifled gun. Now if we do remember well, Arjun too had this 105 mm gun in its early prototypes. Now interestingly till 2008, the main gun barrel was imported rather then being indigenous along with other components. Please do have a look at the attached PDF.

Inspite of being a rifled gun when it was pitched against T-90 on test ground, it performed exceptionally well which prompted or should we say forced IA to order its serial production. Later when they asked for upgrade, smooth bore barrel is no where in the wish list. Moreover user never complained about the accuracy or killing power of the gun.

So apart from spare management, there must be something in doctrine and usage result of the Tank which has so far satisfied the user on Gun front atleast.

Now lets see for Bad reasons of retaining it.

Simply to bad mouth it on a later phase. It might be a deliberate attempt to keep a Achilles heel alive in the MBT to flounder later on. A rifled barrel is maintenance intensive along with being costly on production front. May be at a later date lobby would try to drag it on. But then again, with current capability to produce it in house, the ball would be rolling in user court rather then developers.

Another point which goes well against a rifled barrel is in inability to fire a CLGM. But that too had been overcame in case of Arjun with firing of LAHAT. Now IA is not satisfied with LAHAT as they wanted something with ability to engage at short distance.

So either way, IA would have a hard time to bad mouth Arjun on Gun front. They could always cry about it being over weight, but I have yet to come across a instance where they had uttered any thing against its killing power.

So basically when it comes down to have a smooth bore or a rifled gun, doctrine along with technicality plays a part. As far as firing a certain type of round is concerned, till date designers have provided a way around to overcome those. Be it specially designed APFSDS or a CLGM. So as far as it kills, no one on user front is complaining it seems.

Its just some rabid infected user here, who froth on what they want to see instead of what is the practical use of it, who keeps on barking at a single point.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Does the Mk2 Arjun have a Barrel Bend Detector? If yes, where is the sensor for the same?

well for that we use Boroscope...a robot, which runs on blue tooth connection and can be operated via android app!
View attachment 22930

The robot may be more of a barrel inspection device. Anyway, main gun barrel indeed need to be boresighted frequently. That is given

This is boresighting. A maintenance routine.

A muzzle reference device kind of does similar on-demand "boresighting" for the fire control computer, to measure the angular difference between the gun and the main sight, as the barrel droops with differential thermal expansion. This is a parameter for the fire control computer, for generating more precise firing solutions. Typically such a system consists of a reflector or transmitter at the muzzle and a receiver unit in the back.

The receiver can be integrated with the main sight, like the Abrams has

Or a separate unit mounted on the turret. T-90 recently gained it with it's AM upgrade.

Boresighting is more of a maintenance routine, where muzzle referencing is a runtime system.

In case of Arjun, the receiver is integrated with the main sight, as mentioned in BEL product description page.

http://bel-india.com/Products.aspx?MId=13&LId=1&link=77

 

[Bleh]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

Additional weight of 3 tonnes has reportedly resulted in problems relating its agility, mobility and especially operational employability.

NEW DELHI: The state-of-the-art Arjun Main Battle Tank Mk II is facing a challenging task in trying to shed weight from 68.6 tonne to less than 65 tonne. “So far, by using lighter fitments and making adjustments we have been able to lose only about 1.5 tonne which is far above the Army’s requirement of less than 65 tonne tank. Redesigning and assessments are on,” said a military source familiar with the weight loss effort who did not want to be named.

The Arjun MBT Mk II is an improved version of Mk I and has been developed with 73 tank-fittable improvements of which 15 are major tank-fittable improvements as a result of which an additional tonnage was gained over the Arjun MBT Mk I. But additional weight has resulted in problems relating to agility, mobility and operational employability.

That is why it is important to reduce the weight of the tank. The weight reduction effort is now being undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment mainly by “redesigning the hull and turret structure by using innovative material to replace the conventional structure”. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

 

[tsunami]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

View attachment 23550
Additional weight of 3 tonnes has reportedly resulted in problems relating its agility, mobility and especially operational employability.

NEW DELHI: The state-of-the-art Arjun Main Battle Tank Mk II is facing a challenging task in trying to shed weight from 68.6 tonne to less than 65 tonne. “So far, by using lighter fitments and making adjustments we have been able to lose only about 1.5 tonne which is far above the Army’s requirement of less than 65 tonne tank. Redesigning and assessments are on,” said a military source familiar with the weight loss effort who did not want to be named.

The Arjun MBT Mk II is an improved version of Mk I and has been developed with 73 tank-fittable improvements of which 15 are major tank-fittable improvements as a result of which an additional tonnage was gained over the Arjun MBT Mk I. But additional weight has resulted in problems relating to agility, mobility and operational employability.

That is why it is important to reduce the weight of the tank. The weight reduction effort is now being undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment mainly by “redesigning the hull and turret structure by using innovative material to replace the conventional structure”. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

Even if they reduce 2 more tons army will ask ever powerful armor, which will increase weight again.

 

[Pandora]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

View attachment 23550
Additional weight of 3 tonnes has reportedly resulted in problems relating its agility, mobility and especially operational employability.

NEW DELHI: The state-of-the-art Arjun Main Battle Tank Mk II is facing a challenging task in trying to shed weight from 68.6 tonne to less than 65 tonne. “So far, by using lighter fitments and making adjustments we have been able to lose only about 1.5 tonne which is far above the Army’s requirement of less than 65 tonne tank. Redesigning and assessments are on,” said a military source familiar with the weight loss effort who did not want to be named.

The Arjun MBT Mk II is an improved version of Mk I and has been developed with 73 tank-fittable improvements of which 15 are major tank-fittable improvements as a result of which an additional tonnage was gained over the Arjun MBT Mk I. But additional weight has resulted in problems relating to agility, mobility and operational employability.

That is why it is important to reduce the weight of the tank. The weight reduction effort is now being undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment mainly by “redesigning the hull and turret structure by using innovative material to replace the conventional structure”. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

Chu @#tiya DRDO people ,they didn't get the underlined point raised by Army.They want super galatica planet eater tank with weight less than Maruti Udyog- Alto ,must fly like Spaceship and float like hovercraft...Fudu saale

 

[sayareakd]

The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

Looks like Army's polite way of telling that "T90s cannot match Arjun MK1, what to say of Arjun MK2".

 

[S.Balaji]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

View attachment 23550
Additional weight of 3 tonnes has reportedly resulted in problems relating its agility, mobility and especially operational employability.

NEW DELHI: The state-of-the-art Arjun Main Battle Tank Mk II is facing a challenging task in trying to shed weight from 68.6 tonne to less than 65 tonne. “So far, by using lighter fitments and making adjustments we have been able to lose only about 1.5 tonne which is far above the Army’s requirement of less than 65 tonne tank. Redesigning and assessments are on,” said a military source familiar with the weight loss effort who did not want to be named.

The Arjun MBT Mk II is an improved version of Mk I and has been developed with 73 tank-fittable improvements of which 15 are major tank-fittable improvements as a result of which an additional tonnage was gained over the Arjun MBT Mk I. But additional weight has resulted in problems relating to agility, mobility and operational employability.

That is why it is important to reduce the weight of the tank. The weight reduction effort is now being undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment mainly by “redesigning the hull and turret structure by using innovative material to replace the conventional structure”. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

I think it is a paid article to bad mouth Arjun ....as i remember last July when i spoke at an CVRDE guy associated with the Arjun program at Chennai he said specifically that they have successfully shaved off 3 tonnes of Mk2.... at that time they were testing an all electric drive instead of hydraulic drive....All Electric drive is of reduced weight when compared to the hydraulic one....in fact i saw the testing vehicle having weight ballast to compensate for the reduced electric drive weight for testing purpose ....3 ton weight reduction doesn't include weight offset by electric drive.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tank-mbt-mark-ii.51358/page-80#post-1338513

 

[Bleh]

I think it is a paid article to bad mouth Arjun ....as i remember last July when i spoke at an CVRDE guy associated with the Arjun program at Chennai he said specifically that they have successfully shaved off 3 tonnes of Mk2.... at that time they were testing an all electric drive instead of hydraulic drive....All Electric drive is of reduced weight when compared to the hydraulic one....in fact i saw the testing vehicle having weight ballast to compensate for the reduced electric drive weight for testing purpose ....3 ton weight reduction doesn't include weight offset by electric drive.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tank-mbt-mark-ii.51358/page-80#post-1338513

Maybe... I don't think the army itself is anti-Arjun. If they were they could've made better excuses like pointing out how its turret front is less protected in the right side, for example.

BTW, any info on the status of the indigenous 1500hp engine?
The present one is large, heavy, gasguzzling & somewhat vintage... Changing that for a compact one could bring the net weight down to <60 without mine-plough!

 

[sayareakd]

Maybe... I don't think the army itself is anti-Arjun.

Only those who become DGMF and officers under it.
Some tank officer, who don't know Arjun hate it, this i have personally observed. They think its useless tank; even before testing it.

 

[S.Balaji]

Maybe... I don't think the army itself is anti-Arjun. If they were they could've made better excuses like pointing out how its turret front is less protected in the right side, for example.

BTW, any info on the status of the indigenous 1500hp engine?
The present one is large, heavy, gasguzzling & somewhat vintage... Changing that for a compact one could bring the net weight down to <60 without mine-plough!

Last i have heard from CVRDE is from last week of July last year......so this news is 7 months old... dont know its current status now....In July i had an opportunity to speak with guys in tank power packs section...at that time Bharat power pack designing was completed...prototyping not done.... it was awaiting funding to bring in external consultant (probably MTU) to validate the design...they want to go safe, and will go ahead only after validation of design...it s smaller in size than current MTU power pack...so no problem in retro fitting while going for upgrade ...smaller in size also means lower weight..

Refer the below posts for other info i managed to collect in July last year....reg CLGM, Arjun tank laying bridge etc .....am posting old news due to paucity of any new news in public domain reg Arjun Mk2... Any news reg Arjun is kept deliberately under wraps due to gag order on its team due to MSM taking things out of context....so don't be surprised if our CVRDE does a similar stunt like DRDO's Rustom 2/Awacs radar dome.... we are seeing a lot of projects maturing away from the media glare....

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tank-mbt-mark-ii.51358/page-78#post-1334371

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tank-mbt-mark-ii.51358/page-78#post-1334305

 

[rkhanna]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

View attachment 23550
. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

Hahaha pussies.

After the Arjun mkI Vs T-90S trail doubt the army wants to embarrass the T-90 Again

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...runs-outguns-russian-t-90-110032500022_1.html

 

[patriots]

I don't know about the authenticity of the news...but I last heard that Arjun mk2 have to pass in missile firing test. . after that it will be inducted......
...........and as bs dhanoa has said don't believe in any news until it's official.,.......so don't worry guys..

 

[Shaitan]

I don't know about the authenticity of the news...but I last heard that Arjun mk2 have to pass in missile firing test. . after that it will be inducted......
...........and as bs dhanoa has said don't believe in any news until it's official.,.......so don't worry guys..

Actually, the weight issue was pulled right in the middle of trials. This is yet again a serious demand from the IA. The awkward thing is that the initial add ons added more weight to the tank.

 

[cyclops]

Defexpo 2018 is coming, it will surely clear up some long standing queries.

 

[rohit b3]

Army wages war against ‘overweight’ Arjun tank
DECCAN CHRONICLE | SANJIB KR BARUAH
Feb 26, 2018

View attachment 23550
Additional weight of 3 tonnes has reportedly resulted in problems relating its agility, mobility and especially operational employability.

NEW DELHI: The state-of-the-art Arjun Main Battle Tank Mk II is facing a challenging task in trying to shed weight from 68.6 tonne to less than 65 tonne. “So far, by using lighter fitments and making adjustments we have been able to lose only about 1.5 tonne which is far above the Army’s requirement of less than 65 tonne tank. Redesigning and assessments are on,” said a military source familiar with the weight loss effort who did not want to be named.

The Arjun MBT Mk II is an improved version of Mk I and has been developed with 73 tank-fittable improvements of which 15 are major tank-fittable improvements as a result of which an additional tonnage was gained over the Arjun MBT Mk I. But additional weight has resulted in problems relating to agility, mobility and operational employability.

That is why it is important to reduce the weight of the tank. The weight reduction effort is now being undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment mainly by “redesigning the hull and turret structure by using innovative material to replace the conventional structure”. The Army had ruled out any agility and mobility test of Arjun tank that was to be pitted against the Russian-made T-90 saying that the Arjun MBT Mk II and T-90 are of different class and weight classifications and their deployment is as per assigned operational roles.

There has always been Official Good News about the Tejas after these paid media hit job attempts. Are we looking at some good news regarding the Arjun mk2 soon as well?