Arjun Catapult artillery system

[sayareakd]

Kunal sir i saw inside Bhim

it was like old crane control system. I was their when they shown this bhim. I attended all the Defexpos.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

was the turret for bhim sph developed by drdo or denel?if it is made by drdo then with slight modification it can fit a 155mm 52 caliber gun be it desi or foreign.if denel developed the turret then it will definately take some time by drdo to manufacture the turret and they should start a project parallel to indegeneous 155mm 52 caliber project for quick integration.

 

[bengalraider]

Well sorry for being incommunicado for so long guys, will try and come online more often.
Here's my 0.02 on the Arjun SPGH
There are two aspects to be considered here

1) is the Arjun Catapult a contemporary heavy artillery system?

-Well given that the cutting edge of gun based heavy artillery today is 155mm guns with 40+ km ranges the 27.4km range catapult system on the Arjun looks hopelessly outdated(i'd have liked it more if they could at least jury rig the Dhanush onto the chassis. Also the open canopy offers scant protection to the gun crew in an age of Long range AM rifles, one well spaced sniper with a barrett could take out this system easily.

2) IS this system any good for the IA?

Beggars cannot be choosers and at the moment the IA is in the position of a beggar, it needs mobile arty desperately and the multiple tenders seem to be going nowhere.
in such a case the Arjun Gun flawed as it may be looks attractive.The fact remains that this is also going to be a way for AVADI to keep the Arjun lines running in the face of scant orders for the Tank itself.
As kunal pointed out earlier it is also a step towards building a capable MIL-IN complex inside the country.

 

[sayareakd]

They are going to replace 40-50 old systems. Hope IA ask for covering of gun from all side and DRDO does it.

 

[rajsking]

is the Arjun Catapult a contemporary heavy artillery system?
-Well given that the cutting edge of gun based heavy artillery today is 155mm guns with 40+ km ranges the 27.4km range catapult system on the Arjun looks hopelessly outdated(i'd have liked it more if they could at least jury rig the Dhanush onto the chassis.

Another noob question. Is there any fundamental difference (in structure and usage philosophy) between a tank gun and an artillery gun.
e.g. We are seeing that latest trend in Tank is to install bigger guns - 140, 155mm etc. But this catapult system is not being mentioned when we talk of such bigger guns. Another example will be when we talk of development of artillery like Dhanush (included its mobile version) we do not mention this Arjun Catapult system again.

So what I see is Base Arjun being developed into Arjun catapult AND/OR 155 tank
And Smaller Artillery guns being developed into Dhanush in stationary and mobile version.
If all are connected, why are we having different programs to develop same thing.

OFF topic - would like to know where does Dhanush stands when we compare it with Bofors (we already have) and wrt to Latest version of Bofors.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Difference between Arty tube and a tank gun ..

Arty tube > It is design to propel a round to a specific distance, Arty guns barrel are usually medium pressure to endure the explosive charge which push the round forward, The length of the gun is an important factor as the longer the barrel it provide more powerful and accurate shot at longer distance, Range is a major factor but not so the accuracy ..

Tank guns > These gun are too design based on similar principal on arty guns, But these are high pressure barrels design to push the rounds at higher speed, hence higher muzzle velocity of an round to penetrate other tank`s Armour, The range is here is not a major factor but speed and accuracy is ..

Bigger guns on tanks can have there advantages and disadvantages, Like a bigger and longer gun may be lethal for all other tanks but at the same time it increase the tank size and its weight, The trend of mounting heavy guns is still on which is now limited to 125mm and 120mm respectively, You can learn more about tank Gun and ammunition here >

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition.html

==================

Catapult is an Indian term used for such kind of improvisation, Though such improvisation is not limited to we Indians, Following examples >>

2S5 Giatsint-S >>

In service with Russian Army : 1978 – present

Army: 399 units (+500 in storage)
Navy: 170 units (+some in storage)

======================

2S7 Pion >>

In service : 1976 – present

Users :
Azerbaijan - 12; (3 acquired in 2008 and 9 acquired in 2009[4])
Belarus - 36
Georgia
Russia - 37
Ukraine - 99
Uzbekistan - 48

======================

M110 howitzer >>

In service : 1963 – present

Users :
Belgium Belgian Army 11 M110A2 between 1972 and 1993.
Egypt Egyptian Army Received 144 M110A2 as aid in 1996.
Iran Islamic Republic of Iran Army.
Israel Israeli Army 36 M110.
Japan Japan Ground Self-Defense Force as 91 M110A2.
Jordan Jordanian Armed Forces as M110A2.
Morocco Moroccan Army as M110A2.
Pakistan Pakistan Army 60 in service as of 2010.
Bahrain Royal Bahraini Army 13 M110A2 from Netherlands delivered in 1994, 25 M110A2 from US delivered in 1996.
taiwan Republic of China Army 60 as M110A2
United States US Army & United States Marine Corps.

====================

AMX Mk F3 >>

In service : 1962 – present

Users :

Argentina - 24
Chile - 47
Cyprus - 12
Ecuador - 15
France
Morocco - 100
Saudi Arabia
Peru - 12
Venezuela
Qatar - 22

====================

The Indian Catapult

These Systems fall under self propelled artillery systems ..

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Dhanush is towed Artillery gun, Its is available in 155mm and its in 45cal ( Length of the barrel )

From above :

155 x 45 = 6.95 meters long barrel
155 x 52 = 8.06 meters long barrel
155 x 39 = 6.04 meters long barrel

So for you answer, Dhanush arty gun barrel is of same 155mm but has different is length of the barrel, Bofors 155mm of 52cal has longer barrel hence more range ..

Another noob question. Is there any fundamental difference (in structure and usage philosophy) between a tank gun and an artillery gun.e.g. We are seeing that latest trend in Tank is to install bigger guns - 140, 155mm etc.

But this catapult system is not being mentioned when we talk of such bigger guns. Another example will be when we talk of development of artillery like Dhanush (included its mobile version) we do not mention this Arjun Catapult system again.

So what I see is Base Arjun being developed into Arjun catapult AND/OR 155 tank
And Smaller Artillery guns being developed into Dhanush in stationary and mobile version.
If all are connected, why are we having different programs to develop same thing.

OFF topic - would like to know where does Dhanush stands when we compare it with Bofors (we already have) and wrt to Latest version of Bofors.

 

[arnabmit]

Would the Catapult be later upgraded with the Dhanush gun, and later the DRDO 155x52 gun?

 

[Broccoli]

It's amazing how in 2014 large country like India is unable to design and manufacture decent SPG.

 

[karna]

If the sunshade is STANG-2 level protection, what will be STANG-1 level?:shocked: My God.

By the way kunal sir can you give the specifications of the SPGH offered to the BSF?

 

[bengalraider]

It's amazing how in 2014 large country like India is unable to design and manufacture decent SPG.

That is the Sad part, as i have repeatedly pointed out earlier int his forum.
In the 40's when we attained independence India was the only nation in Asia with a functioning and modestly large Military industrial complex. The fact remains that in the early years the Israelis and the Singaporeans had both approached us to help them and guide them in setting up their own arms factories(We refused citing Gandhian obligations) and then the 60+yrs of official neglect and bloated bureaucracy took it's course.

 

[sayareakd]

It's amazing how in 2014 large country like India is unable to design and manufacture decent SPG.

it is not like that, DRDO is suppose to make such systems which others dont sell to us, like ICBM and missile etc, govt is of the view those systems like artillery gun which others can sell us, why we make them here if buying the same from them is economical rather then set up factory to make them here.

Now thanks to MOD and IA they have blacklisted all the gun maker, therefore finally IA has asked DRDO to make gun for them.

Surely if we can make rockets that can go to moon and mars, nuclear submarines, SLBM and super computers, making decent SPG is like walk in park.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

It's amazing how in 2014 large country like India is unable to design and manufacture decent SPG.

ever heard of bhim project?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

NATO AEP-55 STANAG 4569 is a NATO Standardization Agreement covering the standards for the "Protection Levels for Occupants of Logistic and Light Armored Vehicles".

The standard covers strikes from Kinetic Energy, artillery, and IED blasts.

=====================

Level 1

Kinetic Energy >>

7.62 x 51 NATO Ball (Ball M80) at 30 meters with velocity 833 m/s.
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (SS109) at 30m with a velocity of 910 m/s
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (M193) at 30m with a velocity of 930 m/s

Protection against all three threats must be provided.Grenade and Mine Blast, Hand grenades, unexploded artillery fragmenting submunitions, and other small anti personnel explosive devices detonated under the vehicle.

------------------------

Level 2

Kinetic Energy>>

7.62 x 39 API BZ at 30 meters with 695 m/s
7.62 x 51 NATO Ball (Ball M80) at 30 meters with velocity 833 m/s.
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (SS109) at 30m with a velocity of 910 m/s
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (M193) at 30m with a velocity of 930 m/s

Grenade and Mine Blast Threat,6 kg (explosive mass) Blast AT Mine:

2a – Mine Explosion pressure activated under any wheel or track location.
2b – Mine Explosion under center.

Read more here >> STANAG 4569 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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BSF was offered according to there request >>

The weapon is based on Sarath's (License produced variant of Russian BMP-2) hull mounted with Indian towed 105 mm Light field Gun (LFG). The system can stow 42 rounds of ammunition. The artillery can be used to destroy enemy fortification and also in anti tank role. The Original sights of 105 mm LFG have been retained. A GPS have been provided for navigation. The turret provides level-3 protection for the crew. It was first displayed in February 2010 during DEFEXPO-2010 in New Delhi and it is planned to replace the FV433 Abbot SPG in the Indian army. There is option of composite armour turret to increase protection of crew against 12.7mm weapon. An autoloader along with Fire control system can also be provided to achieve Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact. TALIN 500 Inertial Navigation System can also be installed to navigate in regions where GPS is unavailable due to terrain masking or enemy jamming. ammunition carrying capacity can also be increased to 92 rounds.

Caliber: 105mm
Range: 19 km
Rate of fire: 4 Normal, 6 Intense
Weight: 16 tonnes
Range of elevance: -5 to 70 degrees
Traverse : 360 degrees
Number of crew: 5
Time in and out of action: 1 minute
Ammunation: HE, HEAT, HESH, APDS, smoke, colour
Ammunation capacity : 42 rounds
Type of vehicle : Fully tracked, armoured, air portable
Mobility : 65 Kmph
Sight: 104A Indirect, 106A Direct.

If the sunshade is STANG-2 level protection, what will be STANG-1 level?:shocked: My God.

By the way kunal sir can you give the specifications of the SPGH offered to the BSF?

 

[ghost]

Notice the machine gun mounted :clap::clap: so glad to see it :thumb: was wishing for it .

Hope they provide some armour protection as well in further devlopment to the machine gunner.

 

[karna]

Thank u sir.

NATO AEP-55 STANAG 4569 is a NATO Standardization Agreement covering the standards for the "Protection Levels for Occupants of Logistic and Light Armored Vehicles".

The standard covers strikes from Kinetic Energy, artillery, and IED blasts.

=====================

Level 1

Kinetic Energy >>

7.62 x 51 NATO Ball (Ball M80) at 30 meters with velocity 833 m/s.
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (SS109) at 30m with a velocity of 910 m/s
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (M193) at 30m with a velocity of 930 m/s

Protection against all three threats must be provided.Grenade and Mine Blast, Hand grenades, unexploded artillery fragmenting submunitions, and other small anti personnel explosive devices detonated under the vehicle.

------------------------

Level 2

Kinetic Energy>>

7.62 x 39 API BZ at 30 meters with 695 m/s
7.62 x 51 NATO Ball (Ball M80) at 30 meters with velocity 833 m/s.
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (SS109) at 30m with a velocity of 910 m/s
5.56 × 45 NATO Ball (M193) at 30m with a velocity of 930 m/s

Grenade and Mine Blast Threat,6 kg (explosive mass) Blast AT Mine:

2a – Mine Explosion pressure activated under any wheel or track location.
2b – Mine Explosion under center.

Read more here >> STANAG 4569 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


===================
===================

BSF was offered according to there request >>

The weapon is based on Sarath's (License produced variant of Russian BMP-2) hull mounted with Indian towed 105 mm Light field Gun (LFG). The system can stow 42 rounds of ammunition. The artillery can be used to destroy enemy fortification and also in anti tank role. The Original sights of 105 mm LFG have been retained. A GPS have been provided for navigation. The turret provides level-3 protection for the crew. It was first displayed in February 2010 during DEFEXPO-2010 in New Delhi and it is planned to replace the FV433 Abbot SPG in the Indian army. There is option of composite armour turret to increase protection of crew against 12.7mm weapon. An autoloader along with Fire control system can also be provided to achieve Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact. TALIN 500 Inertial Navigation System can also be installed to navigate in regions where GPS is unavailable due to terrain masking or enemy jamming. ammunition carrying capacity can also be increased to 92 rounds.

Caliber: 105mm
Range: 19 km
Rate of fire: 4 Normal, 6 Intense
Weight: 16 tonnes
Range of elevance: -5 to 70 degrees
Traverse : 360 degrees
Number of crew: 5
Time in and out of action: 1 minute
Ammunation: HE, HEAT, HESH, APDS, smoke, colour
Ammunation capacity : 42 rounds
Type of vehicle : Fully tracked, armoured, air portable
Mobility : 65 Kmph
Sight: 104A Indirect, 106A Direct.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

DRDO & Army`s, Arjun Catapult artillery system

130mm M46 gun mounted on Arjun MBT chassis

MMG position

Armored shed

 

[Kunal Biswas]

DRDO & Army`s, Arjun Catapult artillery system

Front section of the Catapult

Crew working station, from right side

Crew working station from left side

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MMG position

MMG position

GPS receiver

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Radio set

The gun has a traverse capability of 14 degree each side

M46 breach

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Driver seat with thermal sight

Ammunition storage

Cooling system for ammunition storage