Are You Authorized to Defend Yourself?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Rage, Mar 8, 2010.

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Do you think Civilians should own Guns?

  1. 1. Yes, its a un-encroachable natural right. Pick one right away. No holds barred.

    22.5%
  2. 2. Yes, but apply for a license, go through background checks to qualify for a (semi-automatic) gun.

    52.3%
  3. 3. No need, we have cops and army to do the job.

    10.8%
  4. 4. Not at all, too many potential desperados who'll become terminators in no time.

    14.4%
  1. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Project Dharma ok Saar. Rest well.

    @pmaitra @Razor your thoughts please ? @Project Dharma is OK with ZPU, stinger, Javlin, apache and fast Attack crafts in hands of civvies. He drew the line at nukes though..
    Personally I'd love to have this on my rooftop.

    IMG_3710.JPG

    Serious Question. Founding fathers didn't know there would be aircrafts, helos, tanks and nukes at the hands of the government. But they do now. Would the FF have drafted the second amendment if they knew such weapons would be developed in the future? Airspace is something they never thought about. Their logic would indeed be 'why shouldn't civvies defend airspace above them'. In their perspective, why shouldn't it be the case?
     
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  2. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is exactly the point I wanted to make. You sucked the fun right out of it :notsure:
     
  3. Project Dharma

    Project Dharma दुष्ट आत्मा Senior Member

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    I think if you read my post, I agree with you in an Indian context. Economic development is needed and social homogenity before we even talk about gun ownership.

    P.S. I enjoyed reading your post but please use the forum quoting feature, without that it is very hard to discern which part of the post is from OP and which from yourself.
     
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  4. mendosa

    mendosa Regular Member

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    I didn't quote anyone, the whole post is mine.
     
  5. Project Dharma

    Project Dharma दुष्ट आत्मा Senior Member

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  6. Razor

    Razor Pest Control Moderator

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    @Krusty
    Personally I would like to own all that, but wouldn't be comfortable with others having it :)
     
  7. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    RKBA working in India

    Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...tors-rescues-hostage/articleshow/58875979.cms


     
  8. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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  9. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    No such thing as a non lethal weapons.....
     
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  10. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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  11. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    There are documented cases of deaths caused by the apparent Non lethal weapons that are economically viable for civilian ownership mainly pepper spray, tasers, rubber bullets.
     
  12. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    You are not wrong. But that is normal. Even something was harmless as a blob of cotton can be lethal when used properly. Does that mean a roll of cotton is a deadly weapon? Non lethal weapons injure but do not kill when used in the way their manufactures intended and under normal conditions. non lethal weapons give the ability to defend yourself without giving you the chance to become the terminator.

    For the record there are hundreds of gun shot/mine/grenade victims have survived. Does that mean those weapons are non lethal?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  13. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    The problem with non lethal weapons is that they are not effective and efficient against two or more persons and also there are lot of things that one needs to consider using a non lethal weapon for example: if you are standing down wind and use pepper spray to defend yourself, there is a very high chance that you might end up pepper spraying yourself.

    The fact of the matter is that illegal guns have been proliferating in India from a very long time and are easily available to criminals.. so having a pepper spray will not be sufficient... a non lethal weapon may be effective against a lone eve-teaser, but beyond that... i don't think so.

    And moreover the Indian self defense laws (sections 96 to 106) does not require one to be timid.
    I am listing them down for your convenience:

     
  14. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if you have owned and used different types of maces but there are a wide variety with different strengths to spray distance and quantity. Regardless, all of them, as with any weapon, need the user to be alert, mindful of the situation and undergo training. High quality sprays can eject material upto 25 feet and even light to moderate Breeze isn't an issue. Sprays are the one of the best on dealing with crowds. A well trained user can keep a crowd of ten people at Bay easily with a mace. BTW if they are good enough for the US army and marines, they are good enough for civvies

    IMG_3713.PNG IMG_3714.PNG

    You state a very specific scenario with a very specific and weak mace. We cannot hand guns to everyone because people refuse to train and get familiar with non lethal weapons they use.
    Yes, in a land of 1.4 billion people there are bound to be a few incidents. So the solution is opening up guns and rifles to the entire population? So illegal gun wielding people will carry it like normal people do anyway and it will make them less inconspicuous and suspicious.

    Thank you. I have owned many personal Defence equipment from various knives to sprays. And I can tell you one thing for sure. In a high adrenaline situation it's your presence of mind and how familiar with the weapon you wield that will save your life. Truth be told, more often than not, the human brain will panic and breakdown in such situations. Attend any proper self Defence class and you will know how easy it is to immobilize an attacker who is forcin himself/herself on you with little force (even what the female body can easily muster). But it is useless unless they are applied. Rape and kidnap victims more often than not have an instant mental breakdown which prevents their brains from calculating their next move. The problem is the average Indian doesn't take self Defence very seriously and doesn't do any kind of research/study/training and just expect to wield a gun and get out of every situation. It doesn't work that way. Just because there are a few cases of victims shooting their captors and escaping isn't a justifiable reason to open the firearms market to 1.4billion people.

    Besides, what if her kidnappers were also armed and killed her right away the moment she used her gun? Instant death. It's a gamble she took. Lucky she won.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  15. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    And why do you feel so? Even if they clear psychiatric tests along with a spotless record? Oh after the oath as well..... others shouldn't have it?
     
  16. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    Try using the spray in moderate downwind :) and you'll find out what i am talking about i am telling you this from experience (was teaching my wife to use one)



    People who have illegal weapons don't really care about laws and do it any way,



    There any been many instance of legally armed (guns or knives) people defending themselves. It's just that it's not extensively talked about in the media.

    for example 1: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ted-70-muslims-in-fugna-village/1/309827.html
    example 2:


    I agree with your assessment that the average Indian doesn't take self defense very serious. And secondly i am not advocating off the shelf availability of firearms.. What i am advocating that one needs to go through proper training of headlining firearms and the laws of the land.

    And regarding your statement "Just because there are a few cases of victims shooting their captors and escaping isn't a justifiable reason to open the firearms market to 1.4billion people.", is exactly the reason for the government to stop infringing upon the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  17. SanjeevM

    SanjeevM Regular Member

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    With frequent communal, cast based riots, reservations wannabe riots etc. in India, in almost every state, possession of guns will be very dangerous.

    I had a new neighbor many years back from Muslim community. I had 7 siblings and had 6 children. I asked him why don't they have less children and better give them proper education. He told Hindus have 1-2 children. Once Muslims population grows, and whatever Hindus have accumulated over years, their children will loot them. So they believe in numbers. Imagine guns coming in the hands of such people. It gives me a shiver.
     
  18. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    Most of the riots are instigated by politicians... Right now what happens is a mob gathers and attacks (with illegally acquired weapons, very rarely it happens with legal weapons as a matter of fact i spoke to a police office and he told me that in his career he had not once come across an incident were a legally held firearm was used in an offensive way, however he had come across instance were people with legal weapons had acquired illegal weapons which were used in the riots in an offensive manner) unarmed people and if you legally arm those people that would take away the incentive for attacking them.
     
  19. Krusty

    Krusty Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'll give a detailed reply in the morning. Just one quick question. What's the brand and type of mace that you used? Was it foam or gel or spray type? I have used a variety of maces and I find the cross wind issue only in ultra portable sprays. Some small enough they are fit on key chains.. anything under 10 feet of effective spray range is 'fast deploying and discreet' but to be used only at close quarters.
     
  20. SanjeevM

    SanjeevM Regular Member

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    I meant "He had 7 siblings and he had 6 children" in the above post. Sorry for the typo/auto correct.
     

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