Are You Authorized to Defend Yourself?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Rage, Mar 8, 2010.

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Do you think Civilians should own Guns?

  1. 1. Yes, its a un-encroachable natural right. Pick one right away. No holds barred.

    22.8%
  2. 2. Yes, but apply for a license, go through background checks to qualify for a (semi-automatic) gun.

    51.1%
  3. 3. No need, we have cops and army to do the job.

    12.0%
  4. 4. Not at all, too many potential desperados who'll become terminators in no time.

    14.1%
  1. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Lobby groups mobilize as Indians embrace the right to bear arms

    Lobby groups mobilize as Indians embrace the right to bear arms

    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Monday, February 1, 2010



    In the land of Mahatma Gandhi, Indian gun owners are coming out of the shadows for the first time to mobilize, U.S.-style, against proposed new curbs on bearing arms.

    When gunmen attacked 10 sites in Mumbai in November 2008, including two five-star hotels and a train station, Mumbai resident Kumar Verma sat at home glued to the television, feeling outraged and unsafe.

    Before the end of December, Verma and his friends had applied for gun licenses. He read up on India's gun laws and joined the Web forum Indians for Guns. When he got his license seven months later, he bought a black, secondhand, snub-nose Smith & Wesson revolver with a walnut grip.

    "I feel safe wearing it in my ankle holster every day," said Verma, 27, who runs a family business selling fire-protection systems. "I have a right to self-protection, because random street crime and terrorism have increased. The police cannot be there for everybody all the time. Now I am a believer in the right to keep and bear arms."

    Verma said he plans to join the recently formed National Association for Gun Rights India to lobby against new gun controls that the government has proposed, blaming the proliferation of both licensed and illegal weapons for a rise in crime.

    Although India's 1959 Arms Act gives citizens the legal right to own and carry guns, it is not a right enshrined in the country's constitution. Getting a license is a cumbersome process, and guns cannot be bought over the counter -- requirements that gun owners describe as hangovers from the colonial past, when the British rulers disarmed their Indian subjects to head off rebellion.

    In December, the Ministry of Home Affairs proposed several amendments to the Arms Act that would make it even harder to acquire a gun license, restrict the number of people eligible for nationwide licenses and curtail the amount of ammunition a gun owner can amass.

    An official said that the ministry has called for public input. But in the meantime, the proposals have given rise to a nascent gun rights movement modeled on the strategies of the United States' National Rifle Association and echoing its rhetoric of civil rights, dignity and self-protection.

    "We are outraged. We are not murderers. Instead of going after real criminals, the government is indulging in window dressing by bringing in gun control laws that target law-abiding citizens who have licensed guns," said Abhijeet Singh, 37, a software engineer who started Indians for Guns and is the coordinator of the new gun rights association.

    "We want to remove the stigma on licensed gun owners," Singh said. According to the National Crime Records Bureau, 87 percent of murders by firearms in India in 2007 involved illegally held guns.

    There is no official tally of legal gun owners, but Singh cited a rough estimate of 4 million to 5 million.

    Last week, the National Association for Gun Rights India began meeting with lawmakers and consulting lawyers in a bid to stall the proposals. The group's president is a 39-year-old lawmaker, Naveen Jindal, who studied at the University of Texas business school in Dallas. Inspired by American students' displays of patriotism, Jindal earlier launched a successful campaign for Indians' right to display the national flag outside their homes and offices.

    Indian security experts appear dismissive of the group's efforts. "There is no place for a gun rights movement in India," said Julius Ribeiro, a former police officer who comments on security issues. "That kind of debate may work in America, but it will not work here, because laws are misused and guns can easily fall into the wrong hands. It can get dangerous in India."

    Gun rights advocates respond -- using language familiar to Americans -- that guns are a deterrent to crime.

    "An armed society is a polite society," said Rahoul Rai, a member of the campaign. He said the movement also reflects the rise of an Indian middle class that can "voice its fears about rising crime, interpret the constitution to articulate their rights to self-protection and bring like-minded people together through technology."

    Shahid Ahmad, who runs a Web site called the Gun Geek , said the process of getting a gun license in India is so burdensome that it encourages corruption. To hasten the process, he said, many applicants ask politicians to put in a word in their favor, or attempt to bribe officials and police officers.

    To illustrate the point, gun advocates refer to a 2008 incident in the state of Madhya Pradesh. The clamor for gun licenses was so high, according to news media, that officials tried to induce men with large families to participate in a vasectomy program by promising a license in return.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/31/AR2010013102079.html
     
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  3. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    So what do YOU think?

    [​IMG]


    Are India's gun control laws moribund and outdated? Should citizens be allowed the right to carry arms - both in light of the Mumbai attacks and in a broader context? Is the right to bear arms a fundamental right? Or is it an invitation to criminal activity? Does it engender police highhandedness by making them the sole purveyors of (legal) firearms, and therefore the sole protectors of civil security? Is such a right warranted in a country like India- where social and economic disparities are capacious? What are the means to regulate such a right- if the entitlement to personal accoutrements is justified? If not, what of the entitlement to personal provision in a country where the government has not always guaranteed the security of its civilians in the past? Is the government's recent measure of tightening gun-control laws prudence or folly? Or is it downright draconian? Are gun control laws even worthwhile, when small munitions are available relatively easily in the black or grey markets of UP, Bihar- the nefarious 'Texas of India', Chattisgarh and other states? Is this debate even warranted in light of reports such as these?:

    Indians are the 2nd largest gun owners in the world

    Opinions and debate invited, both from Indian and non-Indian members alike.

    A poll will be added shortly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  4. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yes, I think we should be allowed to own guns legally and protect ourselves when needed.

    If we had armed people, scum like the mumbai terrorists would have been taken out much earlier. The state is incapable to protect everyone at all times and has no right to leave them defenseless.
     
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  5. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    People trained in using guns can also serve as reserves in times of need. I am all for it.

    We don't want a generation of youth that has never fired a gun and is unable to fight for the country when needed.
     
  6. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    I wont recommend right to bear arm in indian situation.There is hell of big difference in situation here in USA and one prevailing back home.It will be very difficult to regulate arms in india with such a huge population moreover we don want to make our society situation Like in Afghanistan and pakistan where arms are freely available.
     
  7. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    ^^ Now anyone who wants illegal arms can get it easily while getting legal stuff for genuine reasons is a problem.

    I think we don't want a situation like USA as well. May be guns for self protection that can fire a few rounds but not guns like sniper rifles or AK series.
     
  8. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    can india regulate around 300 million guns bearing people among its population.this is the lowest estimation i can make of number of people who can afford guns in india if allowed.anyone can shoot anybody claiming he/she shot in self defense.Now in india where people gets easily agitated on simple reasons like UP/bihari migrant workers in mumbai,like people who got easily got agitated on the taslima nasreen's article(which most of them have not read) and starting throwing stones burning buses.wouldnt it create severe law and order situation when guns are made available easily.think about an agitated mob firing on people instead of throwing stones.and in india police as usual always arrives late.
     
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  9. NSG_Blackcats

    NSG_Blackcats Member of The Month OCTOBER 2009 Senior Member

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    I as an individual will strongly oppose any kind of free gun culture in India. Lets not talk about getting arms illegally. Even people are making illegal construction that does not mean we allow people to construct anything any where.

    Why a normal human being need a gun?Do we want India to become Pakistan or Afghanistan?

    Whoever felt that there is a threat to his life, he/she should apply for a license. The authority will provide him a license if they feel the threat is genuine. I know there is a gross violation of the rules when licence for guns are issued.
     
  10. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    We are not talking of free gun culture. I am talking of allowing people to easily acquire gun license to defend themselves.

    Of course suspicious characters should be denied the license. Right now, our lives are at the mercy of incompetent state apparatus and we have no chance to protect ourselves or fight any terrorists even when they attack us like they did in Mumbai.

    I know there are practical issues and they need to be resolved. Have a user paid background check by the police, improve the law and order machinery in general and have a strong deterrent in place for misuse of the gun license.
     
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  11. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    For this we already have Indian Arms Act 1959,which caters to all the provisions you suggested unless u meant to dilute this act to make arms being available in market freely like onions,that im against.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  12. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    I can understand the reasoning of all those who are opposed to 'owing guns' and that was my first reaction as soon as I came to this thread but one a little brainstorm, I think Vinod is right. Free gun culture should not be encouraged, but at the same time more and more citizens must be allowed to defend themselves. As Vinod pointed out illegal arms and ammunition are easily available, so Govt must make owning of legal arms easier to counter such threats. People have rightly pointed out that a gun culture can lead to a situation like Pakisan/Astan, but the difference I feel is that while in India, guns are not used to showoff, but in Paksitan, any occassion is marked by people shooting in the skies to celebrate. Also, in India people would own small arms like a pistol or revolver and not AKs/M4s. Govt can more easily control and regulate licensed arms than illegallly owned arms.

    But one thing, I would like to see is that licensed arm owners must be briefed to minimise the chances of any abuse of the weapon. Also, their background must be thorougly checked and they must also undergo some form of physcological tests annually or biannually, so that the weapons are in safe hands. If the Govt can take the following steps, then its fine.

    But arms must not be allowed to be sold freely in the open market, that is definitely a very bad idea.
     
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  13. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    ^^ how wat sorts of arms maoist have????just a question.
     
  14. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    The lower cadre have weapons that are stolen from the police stations by raiding them. As one moves up the order, they have quite a sophisticated range. Maoists are well-equiped and there must be some foreign hand because without it, its just not possible to own such sophisticated range. There are doubts that China supports the maoists and get their weapons from there.
     
  15. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    how about if all lower cadre can avail small arms easily?then.....
     
  16. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    Already, they can easily avail them, its the innocents who are defenseless. Also, if the govt gives them licensed weapons, then they will make background checks, and other checks before giving the license to own the weapons. So, I dont think the possibility of small arms going into hands of maoists exists. Yes, there is definitely a possibility of some devious individuals getting hold of a lincensed weapon, but such probability exists in all fields at all times. The important thing is to keep a proper system in place, keep checks and balances in place and allow the civilians to own small arms like a pistol/revolver so that they can defend themselves. Also, most of the time, these weapons will not be used, brandishing them would give one a degree of defence. Maoists/terrorists...etc would need better weapons than pistols/revolvers to carry out their Ops.
     
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  17. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    that govt.already do under Indian Arms Act 1959, as i 've already mentioned in my previous post #10.So where is the disconnect?
     
  18. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    ^^^ To allow more civilians to own it. Rightnow, I think only celebrities or those who are at an imminent danger are allowed but not normal citizens.
     
  19. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yes he act is there and how many ordinary people make use of it?

    When those scum cowardly terrorists were killing people at random in Mumbai, how many people were armed using that 1959 act?

    I just saw a study in USA that showed that more guns are leading to lower crime rate there!

    India is not USA and needs tougher laws but I do think that more and more of our law abiding people should be able to be armed and be able to defend themselves, their communities and their country if needed.
     
  20. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    ^^^The knowledge that one has a weapon to defend oneself will also make ppl braver when they face a petty criminal or big terrorist. So, ordinary ppl will become the first hurdle for crimes and dependence on the cops will diminish.
     
  21. Solid Beast

    Solid Beast New Member

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    Civilians with clear records and of a certain age should be allowed to own semi automatic firearms. It just requires better bureaucracy to manage. Also your neighbors to the West are armed to the teeth.
     

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