Are Stringent Laws like POTA the Solution to Stop Terror?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Yusuf, May 1, 2009.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Daredevil,
    POTA was a law that was used to abuse and that is common knowledge. Gujarat showed us how it was done. All the rioters/alleged rioters from the minority coomunity were booked under POTA but none from the majority.
    There are countlessvother cases. Besides that law did not stop any terrorist acts that I had pointed out earlier.

    On the issue of terrorist swap, my question is why wasn't the plane stormed while it was in Indian airspace?

    On your contention of the swap deal being passed by the council of ministers, then why did Mr Advani claim ignorance about the deal?
     
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  3. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    IIRC Congress didn't do anything to redress the wrong either.

    Yusufbhai, I don't know how true is this but some Gujrati muslims are actually pro-Modi.

    EDIT - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/moditva-gets-a-muslim-cheerleader/451355/3

    India has laws for everything, seldom is the implementation

    Good point.
     
  4. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Singhji you are correct, the Head of a Mosque in Gujrat recently Commended Modi highly on his Developmental Agenda!
     
  5. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    In India, no one Politicial Party is Good, if one is Fake Secularist, other is Fake Hindutva brigade! If one Killed Sikhs and Pandits, the other and its cronies has Killed Christians and Muslims!

    One Thing I cant Understand, Why is Kargil Considered a Big Victory for INDIA? Did We gain any Extra Land or Advantage? We Just recaptured our Land which was lost due to our Negligence and the backstabbing of Pakistanis!

    I hated the way the UPA govt handled the Mumbai Attacks in the beginning, but then it dawned on me that War is not possible and that this is a better strategy rather than Mobilising our forces for no rhyme or reason and not having the balls to give orders to attack and wasting BILLIONS of $!!!!

    Now tell me, which party should the army choose??? Frankly tell me! Which PARTY!!!
     
  6. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Singh it may be true that some Muslims are pro Modi as he has done good work as far as development is concerned. He is good for business. A lot of Muslims are businessmen in Gujarat. I'm from there as well though settled in Bangalore since birth. But in the very same riots, a hundred year old business of my great great grandfather was burnt down.

    The good development work doesn't take away all the sins does it? I remember a few months back a tv channel had got hold of some telephone transcripts which was increminating against Modi. Nothing was heard about it since.
     
  7. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    In 5 years you expect BJP to do what Congress could not do in so many years of its rule? How ironic.
     
  8. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    You have to change your stand when a party does not fulfil its promises. Operation parakram was at least an operation; What did 26/11 have? UPA government runnign towards United States like cry babies, giving VVIP treatment to Kasab and therefore making a laughing stock of our country. IN past 5 years, give me ONE single instance where UPA has been strong on terror. Instead of that, for votebank sakes, it removed everything that was actually at least keeping terrorists at bay.

    Now Maoists and cross border terrorism is at ALL time high and that has been acknowledged by all the three services chiefs IN MEDIA. Didn't hear any of the generals, marshals or admirals say that during NDA's time. This is the problem; the media immerses Indian citizens into bollywood world so much that until something like 26/11 happens in the country, they don't seem to wake up.

    last time you voted for NDA and you say parliment attack happened so you changed to UPA.... now UPA didn't perform in the centre so I think you should punish the UPA as well now by changing. When the quality of some goods is poor in one shop, you don't make excuses and stay there; you go to another shop which offers a better product quality.
     
  9. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    You now blame partition on Right wing? How ignorant. It was your lovely "secular" ideals of Gandhi and Nehru that led to the division of the country. I think you need to read the correct history. M.K Gandhi did a hunger strike to give Pakistan the funds it needed to work as a nation and today it is repaying us in a wonderful way.

    I don't care whether you quit the right wing join the left wing; the situation is that India is run over by terrorists from both Jehadi sector and Communist sector and all your wonderful government does is cater to Kasab's luxury fantasies like perfume and toothpaste. How very kind and noble!

    If you expect such a government at the center, how do you expect us to protect the country?
     
  10. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Vayusena,

    Did the BJP even make one public statement regarding any kind of government decision to re-settle the Pandits? Cmon now, if the Hindutva movement is the basis of their ideology, then such a thing should be surely at the top of their list. But it's not. Their agenda has been the Ram temple, article 370 and the common civil code. That's it.

    Oh, and you misunderstood me, I was never right wing, and have no love lost for them. I said some of my relatives are. And neither did I blame partition on the Hindutvavadis, I said that they have not yet accepted partition as an unalterable fact of history because of their idealization of India as a mother goddess.

    By that logic, since both UPA and NDA have proven themselves to be ineffective, the only option left is to vote for the Third Front, however silly that might sound.
     
  11. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Well, it is difficult to part with the idea that we have lost a part of our country to foreign elements you know. After all, there are Muslims living in India today very well placed. What caused them to go for partition? Just expansionism and today the same Pakistan is what is eating into our country and causing so much trouble. So what if they imagine India to be Goddess? They at least worship the country as a land and as a part of their rich past unlike today's left leaning anti-Indian parties who tend to encourage integration of bangladeshi illegal immigrants in to the country so that their votebank expands. You are just opposing my "Hindutva" but you fail to have any answer to what is happening to the country. You have credible replies to what all I ask but your government does nothing in action to counter the ill-effects of sheer negligence of so many communities in the country. Forget communities, when a part and parcel of their precious votebank were killed by the very terrorists the UPA protects so dedicatedly, the UPA still did nothing except go and cry like a baby to USA, making a mockery of us in the armed forces. Are we here to wear bangles and cry like eunuchs or are we meant to stop the enemy from troubling our citizens? You decide. Your tax money pays our salaries. If you are an Indian at all.

    If the Third front ever comes up, India is doomed for if we consider UPA as a votebank appeasing government, the Third Front is the worst of it all. You seem to be rather impressed with pakistanis on the way they broke away India into two.

    And By the way, Article 370 is the key to re settling of Kashmiri pandits in the valley. I recommend you apply some logic in this; I am sure you will understand what I mean. If 370 is removed, it would mean that Kashmir is no different from UP or Maharashtra and therefore this would encourage pandits to try at least to return. Not just them but also other Indians from other states who would love to have property and settle in beautiful lands of Kashmir. This settling in would not be liked by terrorists based in Kashmir and this would automatically force the government to take necessary security steps in order to ensure the wellbeing of everyone there who has moved. This is called Chain reaction theory.

    BJP at least raised the issue of Article 370 while Congress has ruled India for 4 decades and still hasn't done anything about it, why? Oh because their minority votebank would get ruined. I wonder which ficticious minority are they trying to favor when the whole nation is against terrorism. Dividing and ruling the country has been Congress' inheritence from the British and by your talks I can see that they are successful.
     
  12. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    POTA might have been abused by charging only one section of people leaving out the other section, in this case, it is not the law that is at fault but the law enforcer who is biased. There are many laws which were framed by our law makers with the right intentions but if it is not used properly that is not the mistake of the law. Even now very basic laws are being abused by the people, but that doesn't mean we have to repeal those laws which have a right purpose constituted in it. Repealing POTA was one of the biggest mistake UPA govt. did, they realized it and already made amendments.

    You argue that POTA didn't stop the terrorist acts. This is the most flawed argument which UPA has been making and you are doing. There are laws constituted for punishing the persons guilty of rape and murdering. Now have rapes and murders stopped?. Do you think in the same vein that these criminal laws should be repealed because they were ineffective in stopping the rapes and murders.

    You should remember that laws act only as deterrents and discourage or make the person think twice before doing a crime, once you remove that law, the same person will not think twice about doing the same crime. You are looking at only one side of the coin, that is, the POTA law was unable to stop the terrorist acts but other side of the coin nobody sees is, how many were deterred from indulging in terrorist acts.

    I'm quoting an excerpt from former NSA, foreign secretary and ambassador J.N.Dixit's book 'India-Pakistan in War and Peace' abou the Kandahar Hijack fiasco. He has a very good reach into the inner workings of GoI.

    I hope this will answer your question. Please read more in the book.
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    You cannot compare criminal code vs the terror law.
    The law is useless against brainwashed terrorists who come to die in the first place. So they either die in their act or get caught and be hanged, it doenst make a difference to them. They consider that to by martyrdom. The people affected were the innocents who were made victims of the system as people had to be "found" for atrocities committed. I remember reading an article somewhere in some weekly that how people were picked up after terror attacks just because the police had to show results. Many lives were shattered. Those picked up were later released and the police given a rap, but then those affected were left in ruins. Their careers were destroyed. They were mentally affected and so on.

    What is required is a good foreign policy with regards with terrorism and also and affective terror fighting mechanism. Intelligence, policing etc.
     
  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Mr Advani himself has said nothing to clear himself. The only thing he has done is pass statements which caused even more confusion.
     
  15. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    You are talking about people who have committed Mumbai attacks, but what about the people from within India (the SIMI based guys or Indian Mujahideen) who were involved in terrorists attacks. These guys never wanted to die, they just planted bombs and run away. Some of these guys are well educated. They did all these terrorists attacks thinking that they can getaway from the law. To deter people like them we need such stringent laws.

    All these so called innocents being picked up is all but a charade put by some human rights activists and splashed in weeklies. There are many instances where some people were arrested who were released on bail and never to be seen again and later found to be working from Pakistan in organizing terrorist attacks in India. Some innocents might have been picked up, who might be suspicious in their behavior but if there is no evidence against them eventually they get out but they pay price of ignominy for no crime. This happened even with British and Australian police, so Indian police is no exception in this case.

    Agreed
     
  16. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Great!! Finally we do agree on something. :)
     
  17. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Problem is that very thin line to walk on where the innocent are not sucked into a system trap and the guilty who should not be let away. We need to fine tune the laws which strikes that balance.

    Other thing is that the police reforms be implemented and made independent of the polity so that they are not used as a tool to extract political mileage/get even etc..Once that is done, terror fighting will get a boost and terror attacks will be down.
    The recent US report that India has failed in its fight against terror is because of its law enforcement and laws. Cant find that report.
     
  18. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    POTA is definitely not the ideal solution. The "collateral damage" in terms of misuse by politicians, rivals getting each other POTAed for revenge, innocent people getting caught etc. is too high.

    The best solution is the most difficult one - reform the police force, streamline the judicial process, reframe and rethink existing laws to eliminate loopholes and improve intelligence and community policing.

    But politicians are looking for a quick-fix and an ideological plank for re-election - and POTA provides both.
     
  19. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Though I am a very strong supporter of democracy but how about this: all of you should agree for a nationalist military rule. At that time, everyone is concerned about freedom and democracy. In this way, no concensus can be reached and India remains as chaotic as ever without any proper direction for development.

    However if there has to be a democracy then let it be played 50% armed forces and 50% nationalist civilian government. I feel that military training to every citizen (non-conscripted during school years), would bring a sense of national pride in him or her and therefore discipline them for life without bringing isolated cases of domestic terrorism as we had seen in Batla house encounter and other domestic terror strikes. Unfortunately, something has to be done about the alegiance to the outside countries. It is not safe for the country if there is even a hint of loyalty to the foreign elements who are helping destablize Kashmir and other regions through radicalism. For this, it is essential that some restrictive measures have to be taken, even if they are against democratic principles.

    Those Democracies that are totally free like Netherlands, do not have enemies staring down around their neighbourhood to worry about and that is why Indian public will have to understand why certain limits are being placed on them, instead of complaining about why "western countries are so free". They have to understand the reasons for these limite restrictions instead of complaining for the rather ficticious "rights". Rights will be there but some might not be. We are right now in a hotspot with an entire neighborhood full of either enemies or neutrals. Therefore it is all the more essential that we understand this maturely instead of making noise like crybabies about Europe style democracy.
     
  20. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Kashmir is a different thing all together. Some of the people dont consider themselves as Indians. They may not be even aligned to our neighbor. Kashmir problem has moved away from being local uprising to a fully foreign attack rather than an insurgency.

    With SIMI and IM, I think they may not be loyal to a foreign land and have their own agenda. But entirely true that the foreign intel agency provides all the resources they require.
     
  21. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    :) That's why they have a bureaucrat above the head of COAS.

     

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