Are Lions and Cheetahs not indigenous to India?

[tramp]

african origin hypothesis was born at the peak of European racism , any one had a non-white tone was inferior by de-facto, it provided them the necessary reason to conduct genocide wherever possible, they used these same theories to create artificial famines in southern India as well during 1840-1880s which killed 30 million people, it got toned down after ww2 waiting to burst again when given a chance

the recent corroborations with DNA markers are not acceptable when the knowledge and origin of influential pattern of DNA is not clear,

humans feudal instincts always or at-least until now triumphs their intellect

Killing of aborigines/indigenous people did not take any theories for them. The genocides were more religion based (eg monotheism considered superior to polytheism/paganism/animism) than scientific (that is, the raison d'etre given being need to weed out inferior beings per se).
I have not idea about artificial famines limited to South India.
Are the haplotype based migration unacceptable because they corroborate earlier theories? Or because the method itself is thought faulty?

 

[HEILTAMIL]

Killing of aborigines/indigenous people did not take any theories for them. The genocides were more religion based (eg monotheism considered superior to polytheism/paganism/animism) than scientific (that is, the raison d'etre given being need to weed out inferior beings per se).
I have not idea about artificial famines limited to South India.s
Are the haplotype based migration unacceptable because they corroborate earlier theories? Or because the method itself is thought faulty?

you have to note the history and evolution of European racism
the idea and the brains who gave the go -ahead of genocides have to be considered, european intellectuals and churches including shakespeare were of the opinion they were less humans and can be hunted down

their religion and their influenced decisive bureaucracy went hand in hand,

Genocides were race based;
they couldnot accept blacks/aboriginals as equals or un-civilised they were mere savages and beasts, churches considered them beasts , later they improvised and suggested they could be enslaved as bible provides room for that eventhough they were less-human, they could try to civilise by teaching them christianity.


Lord Lyton's reply to the whole Indian famine was survival of the fittest


one perspective according to Darwin's theory is europeans are at the top of evoultuion cycle when the lesser whites find themselves in relative position according to their skin tone

theoretical base of DNA corroboration with earlier racial theories is simply not acceptable due to the very base to racial theories

moreover influential pattern of DNA is not clearly understood yet!
DNA might be also influenced by heavy exposure of thought process of humans which change and share according to their geographical locations,
by correlating tatva or Indic principle/science it implies the same

I have read quite a books in the past about european racism and their impacts in the modern world,my ideas are influenced by them theories
documentaries relating Eurpoean racial theories, genocides and genetics are available in internet i think.

 

[tramp]

you have to note the history and evolution of European racism
the idea and the brains who gave the go -ahead of genocides have to be considered, european intellectuals and churches including shakespeare were of the opinion they were less humans and can be hunted down

their religion and their influenced decisive bureaucracy went hand in hand,

Genocides were race based;
they couldnot accept blacks/aboriginals as equals or un-civilised they were mere savages and beasts, churches considered them beasts , later they improvised and suggested they could be enslaved as bible provides room for that eventhough they were less-human, they could try to civilise by teaching them christianity.


Lord Lyton's reply to the whole Indian famine was survival of the fittest


one perspective according to Darwin's theory is europeans are at the top of evoultuion cycle when the lesser whites find themselves in relative position according to their skin tone

theoretical base of DNA corroboration with earlier racial theories is simply not acceptable due to the very base to racial theories

moreover influential pattern of DNA is not clearly understood yet!
DNA might be also influenced by heavy exposure of thought process of humans which change and share according to their geographical locations,
by correlating tatva or Indic principle/science it implies the same

I have read quite a books in the past about european racism and their impacts in the modern world,my ideas are influenced by them theories
documentaries relating Eurpoean racial theories, genocides and genetics are available in internet i think.

Church of course used genetic superiority postulates to fuel genocide. That does not mean the basic genetic principles are wrong so long as they are not proven to be wrong. Racism is a fact and its influence on European policies was strong.
Still I do not see any reason to totally disbelieve science.
It is true, Church suppressed scientific investigation because it questioned established views on the universe and mankind. And the Church did persecute scientists. And the same Church also used incontrovertible scientific discoveries to further its own cause. This cycle of obstruction, negation and later appropriation has been a definite pattern.

 

[HEILTAMIL]

Church of course used genetic superiority postulates to fuel genocide. That does not mean the basic genetic principles are wrong so long as they are not proven to be wrong. Racism is a fact and its influence on European policies was strong.
Still I do not see any reason to totally disbelieve science.
It is true, Church suppressed scientific investigation because it questioned established views on the universe and mankind. And the Church did persecute scientists. And the same Church also used incontrovertible scientific discoveries to further its own cause. This cycle of obstruction, negation and later appropriation has been a definite pattern.

the african origin theory is their search for adam and eve;
im not in the proposition of disbelieve of recent science ; but being skeptical;
a non-european mindset not a subjugatory intellectual who supports but as a individual school of thought researching this matter has to happen as well

origin of such ideas and the factors they grew upon cannot be neglected,

we still don't know the what/when/how/why of genetics in general completely yet; analogical to space research we are able to send ships in the space while having and searching for something based on hypothesis'es, it might be right or may not;
we will see only what we want to see;

 

[tramp]

the african origin theory is their search for adam and eve;
im not in the proposition of disbelieve of recent science ; but being skeptical;
a non-european mindset not a subjugatory intellectual who supports but as a individual school of thought researching this matter has to happen as well

origin of such ideas and the factors they grew upon cannot be neglected,

we still don't know the what/when/how/why of genetics in general completely yet; analogical to space research we are able to send ships in the space while having and searching for something based on hypothesis'es, it might be right or may not;
we will see only what we want to see;

Many of these scientific theories, including evolution, challenged the premises on which the Church is founded. Hence there was a lot of opposition to them, until they became more firmly established in society. So the Church could not have had any role in their creation.
Given to them, the Church would have thwarted any attempt that even remotely seemed to question their established beliefs. But the advances in science were achieved by scientists who went against the dictums of the Church.

 

[GPM]

Church fuels search for Adam and Eve. Such a search leads to the astounding results that every human is descendent of the first pair. At least that is the attemp. Same search/research also tells them that all languages in the world are derived from one language. Biblegod did not like even many languages, hence he destroyed the tower of Babel. This thinking led them to destroy indigenous languages with a vengeance. Mayan language was destroyed so thoroughly that only three manuscripts survived, out of thousands. In Goa, Portuguese, egged on by church, did outlaw Kankani. Of course India is not in the same class as Mayans.

To their credit, British did try to preserve local place names. But why oh why was Ganga, easy to pronounce, changed to Ganges?

 

[HEILTAMIL]

Many of these scientific theories, including evolution, challenged the premises on which the Church is founded. Hence there was a lot of opposition to them, until they became more firmly established in society. So the Church could not have had any role in their creation.
Given to them, the Church would have thwarted any attempt that even remotely seemed to question their established beliefs. But the advances in science were achieved by scientists who went against the dictums of the Church.

church may not be directly involved, but their consumers are,

simply accepting this conspiracy in the name of scientific methods only endorses their racial theories,
there are already neo-nazi nutcases worldwide allover the white population, future will prove this

this is the very base of xenophobic white-devil attitude of chinese, that directly influenced their growth

 

[tramp]

church may not be directly involved, but their consumers are,

simply accepting this conspiracy in the name of scientific methods only endorses their racial theories,
there are already neo-nazi nutcases worldwide allover the white population, future will prove this

this is the very base of xenophobic white-devil attitude of chinese, that directly influenced their growth

When the Church was powerful it persecuted the scientists and burnt many in the name of black magic. Church stood against any scientific inquiry beyond the pages of what they interpreted as the Bible's teachings. Much the same way Taliban acted in Afghanistan.
What conspiracy? You are talking as if the West is a monolithic, religion-bound clandestine society out to stamp its superiority over the whole world in an organised manner and everything that comes out of the West is tuned to achieve that result.
I am not a supporter of xenophobia.

 

[GPM]

When the Church was powerful it persecuted the scientists and burnt many in the name of black magic. Church stood against any scientific inquiry beyond the pages of what they interpreted as the Bible's teachings. Much the same way Taliban acted in Afghanistan.
What conspiracy? You are talking as if the West is a monolithic, religion-bound clandestine society out to stamp its superiority over the whole world in an organised manner and everything that comes out of the West is tuned to achieve that result.
I am not a supporter of xenophobia.

Western countries are not monolithic block, sure. But Vatican had exerted a baleful influence of the states. It is not for nothing that crusades were launched, not by Vatican but on exhortations and sanctions of Vatican.

Do you that Acquinas, the "philosopher" produced a theological justification of inquisition?

 

[nrj]

Everybody came from Africa. Get over with it.

 

[tramp]

Western countries are not monolithic block, sure. But Vatican had exerted a baleful influence of the states. It is not for nothing that crusades were launched, not by Vatican but on exhortations and sanctions of Vatican.

Do you that Acquinas, the "philosopher" produced a theological justification of inquisition?

Hey, nobody is denying the influence the Church had in dictating policies of many European counties. But my point is science developed despite Church's efforts to stifle it. And whatever Church accepted was grudgingly done.
Now seeing a conspiracy in every Western scientific discovery is not acceptable.
We would then be making the same mistake as those who push thousands of children to death the paralysis by denying them polio vaccines because they are told its a conspiracy of the west to reduce fertility.

 

[HeinzGud]

I would like to join the debate with the fact that there were lions living in Sri Lanka for very long time. Probably around the pre historic times.

The Sri Lanka Lion (Panthera leo sinhaleyus), also known as the Ceylon Lion, was a prehistoric subspecies of lion, endemic to Sri Lanka. It appears to have become extinct prior to the arrival of culturally modern humans, c. 37,000 years BC.

This lion is only known from two teeth found in depostits at Kuruwita. Based on these teeth, P. Deraniyagala erected this subspecies in 1939. However, there is insufficient information to determine how it might differ from other subspecies of lion. Deraniyagala did not explain explicitly how he diagnosed the holotype of this subspecies as belonging to a lion, though he justified its allocation to a distinct subspecies of lion by its being "narrower and more elongate" than those of recent lions in the British Natural History Museum collection.

Sri Lanka lion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tramp]

I would like to join the debate with the fact that there were lions living in Sri Lanka for very long time. Probably around the pre historic times.



Sri Lanka lion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Teeth fossil? Did it get dated? The information is very very sketchy.

 

[HeinzGud]

Teeth fossil? Did it get dated? The information is very very sketchy.

Yes it is sketchy.

 

[tramp]

Yes it is sketchy.

How was it decided it is from prehistoric period? Why is no carbon dating done? Or is it just a scam?

 

[HeinzGud]

How was it decided it is from prehistoric period? Why is no carbon dating done? Or is it just a scam?

I do not know much details though.............

 

[tramp]

I do not know much details though.............

It could also be a hoax that Wiki is unwittingly perpetrating.. somebody just having some fun.. i have never heard of that subspecies.. P. sinhaleyus.

 

[vram]

Ok i dont want to get into the religious slug fest here but my opinion also tends to agree that this article has a distinctly anti India stand
Reason: It tries to diminish based on very very small facts the bio diversity of INDIA since the early ages. Just a small search in google revealed many peer reviewed books which establish the fact that lions have been present since atleast 1 CE in india. If that is not enough for HISTORIAN Romila Thapar then what is??

Ok back to my earlier comments I was able check and do find some refrences of lion during the Chera Dynasty in South India that was present during the riegn of Asoka.
Just given below the relevant point. Read the article in Wiki guys and also the citation provided below when you get the time. Very Interesting about the sheer size , age and grandeur of our India Civilization.

References to Sangam age Chera dynasty are found in Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions of 3rd century CE found on rocks in Edakal hill in Wynad district of Kerala.[64] The ancient port city of Tondi is mentioned in inscriptions found in Kilavalavu village near Madurai

Among the Chera coins, the "Makkotai series" bears a unique pattern not found in other Tamil coins of its age. They contain both the portrait of a king (facing right) and a written legend, in this case the word "Makkotai" written in Tamil-Brahmi script.The Makkotai coins and the seals have been assigned a date range of 100 BC to end of 100 AD.[86]

Another series of Chera coins depicts various animals along with symbols on its obverse and the Chera emblem on its reverse. Elephant, horse, bull, tortoise and lion are the animals depicted in this series, along with snake and fish. Symbols of inanimate objects include arched hills, battle axe, conch, river, swastika, trident, flowers and the sun.[87]

Sources of ancient Tamil history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cultural depictions of lions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the second link guys. IT specifically mentions about the importance of lions for India cultural heritage. Heck it represents for many ordinary people the Asoka pilliar synonymous with the Edicts of Asoka one of the greatest kings who ever lived. By trying to undermine what the Lion represent in Indian history by saying they are imported you are trying to undermine something intrensic to the very cultural fabric of our country. Not I am not pointing to the current country of India alone but 5000 + years of continuous heritage.

Also finally read the below article from Hindu...wont regret it..

http://www.hindu.com/mp/2008/04/07/stories/2008040750810800.htm

The prominent HISTORIAN cannot get basic history correct it appears...

 

[HeinzGud]

It could also be a hoax that Wiki is unwittingly perpetrating.. somebody just having some fun.. i have never heard of that subspecies.. P. sinhaleyus.

No No it wasn't a hoax. P. Deraniyagala was a legendary archeologist. Among the other fossil he found near Kuruwita confirmed there were even Hypos and Gaurs were lived in Sri Lanka. The ubspecies of Gaur went extinct around 19th century in central hills.

 

[tramp]

No No it wasn't a hoax. P. Deraniyagala was a legendary archeologist. Among the other fossil he found near Kuruwita confirmed there were even Hypos and Gaurs were lived in Sri Lanka. The ubspecies of Gaur went extinct around 19th century in central hills.

The article referenced in the Wiki stub does say the fossil is dated to 37,000 years before present. And it also talks about tiger fossils dated to 16,500 years before present.
If they were present in Sri Lankan Island, they must have been present in peninsular India and by extension northern plains. But what is enigmatic is that none of the cave arts show lion.