Apache & Chinook deal finally in sight?

[jackprince]

Drones are indeed the direction in which the more advance military's are moving.

Agreed and admitted. But, India is still has a long road ahead in that direction. I would refer to this post of mine, when I adrressed @ghost on the similar matter.

Sure, I have a great deal of respect for all service personnel and the British Indian army did a lot of good work in WW2, and at other times.

Just a few days ago you did not. Or have you forgotten your comments where you tried to paint the Indian soldiers as cowards during WWII? But that is OT, and we should avoid OT.

They have the pilots, the mechanics, the weapons and the bases/ carriers set up for attack helicopters. It makes sense for them to continue their use in large numbers and they were still pretty useful in Afghanistan.

Now, why then you said this....
"By assault helicopter presume you mean something like the Apache/ Cobra. They'd already been, largely replaced by drones in Afghanistan. The helicopters had become, basically a flying truck to deliver a hellfire missile when their wasn't a UAV available."

Hmm... what else could I mean??? How about what has shot down the majority of helicopters in combat i.e. small arms fire and AAA, in particular heavy MG's

Yes, that is true for the Helicopters, but not for the attack helicopters like Hind, Apache or Kamov 50. These helicopters are designed from ground up to survive HMGs and other small arms. Apoaches durability is stated to have protection for 23mm bullets! Now, how many 23 mms are the enemy going to lug around. There again the tactics comes into play. What target should the attack helicopters be given, and what terrain and how it should approach the enemy. I again emphasise that Apaches are not going to be thrown at anything and everything, but a systematic role of this platform will be developed for this. It surely is not going to engage a large armoured column alone. But it can always go in immediately after Jaguars or Mig-27s have made their strafing run of the column and softened the AAs, enemy has exhausted MANPADs - squadron of Apache can cause havoc in that situation among the disorganised enemy. Have you thought about that? The battle-field is not a single dimension video game. every asset is used in conjunction with other assets to get the goal of killing men and destroying machines. Apache will fit right in.

Personally, I think India wastes a huge amount of money on all those tanks you'll never be using, but how is that relevant?

Again that is a personal opinion. But, armour is a necessity given we have a huge boundary with deserts and plains with our enemy. A mobile battle system in such a scenario is valuable.

Aircraft carriers have also increased their survivability, which is problematic for rotary winged aircraft. Also, carriers can not be substituted with any alternative

Attack helos have also evolved. Yes, it still is risky job, but no less than it was a decade ago. To match the MANPADs improved lethal and precision, they have been forced to incorportae more defensive measures.

By assault helicopter presume you mean something like the Apache/ Cobra. They'd already been, largely replaced by drones in Afghanistan. The helicopters had become, basically a flying truck to deliver a hellfire missile when their wasn't a UAV available.

India do not have the combat UAVs in numbers as of yet, and given how classified most of the technology still is, we have to build ourselves the capability. But we don't have them here and now, but apache is available and is a damn good proven system.

Btw, have you guys given any thought what if the enemy developes a system which can severe the data link of the CUAV with its operator? The whole fleet will go kaboom in the ground, without firing a single shot. And, I believe every nation is working on that.

Know, for example, the Australian army didn't like operating with Dutch Apaches in Afghanistan as the Dutch refused to fly low enough to use their chain gun (which is the whole point of attack helicopters) as it was too dangerous down low and they (this wasn't the helicopters fault) had stupidly restrictive rules about firing Hellfires/ other missiles. Our guys preferred fast air/ a drone from a non hippy country to provide close air support.

Trust me, Indian pilots won't have any problem like that.

As the first few posters on this thread, who seemed to actually know something about this subject, the Indian army will probably use their Apaches for reconnaissance and as UAV controllers

Very much possible, and I guess that is what attracted the IAF to it more. But, till we get the required UAVs, Apache is going to be used as a combat attack helo, and if needs be it will go in and play that very role.

You misunderstood what I said, I was talking about Finnish helicopters. Although yes, I was implying the enemies helicopters too.

Any war between Finland and Russia would at best, from the Finnish perspective, see Russia aircraft making sure no Finnish plane gets any were near it's force. A hypothetical Finnish attack helicopter crew would, I'm entirely positive, have an average life expectancy of under a minute if they flew a mission any where near Russian ground forces.

Problem with this scenario is that it is not comparable to possible scenario that may be faced by India. Russian juggernaut facing puny Finland, and India facing either Pakistan or China, both having formidable forces, is no where comparable in any ground.

Not all UAV's return to base. Glad for Indian soldiers sake that you're just another of this forum's Chairbourne Warriors.

Oh, having a pragmatic streak is considered a good thing. Or do you want your armed forces to live in a la la land where like some shitty movies only the bad guys die?

See that is the problem with people, when they have not faced any real enemy to match his strength and have beaten and bullied the weaker guys, he forgets that when 'fighting' you get hurt. India, unfortunately, will not be going to bully another weaker power like you and your masters do, it will face the enemies, who know how to fight and have the strength for it. So, I am pragmatic. What are you gonna do?

 

[The enlightened]

They have the pilots, the mechanics, the weapons and the bases/ carriers set up for attack helicopters. It makes sense for them to continue their use in large numbers and they were still pretty useful in Afghanistan.

oooo....but attack helicopters are so passé. Only Idiots buy them. They are only good for military shows and teenage boys bedroom posters.

 

[Yumdoot]

@jackprince,

@apple gave you a real life Australian Army example about Dutch Apache Pilots refusing to risk it against Taliban of all adversaries. And you just respond with a :
"Trust me, Indian pilots won't have any problem like that."

I had thought it would be reasonable to leave you with your blue pill, but now I am doubly sure you must be left with your blue pill.

What kind of response was that yaar.

 

[apple]

Just a few days ago you did not. Or have you forgotten your comments where you tried to paint the Indian soldiers as cowards during WWII? But that is OT, and we should avoid OT.

Pretty sure that was a few weeks, rather than days ago. But sure. I said a large number of offensive things about the Indian soldiers who served in Malaya and later INLA

Now, why then you said this....
"By assault helicopter presume you mean something like the Apache/ Cobra. They'd already been, largely replaced by drones in Afghanistan. The helicopters had become, basically a flying truck to deliver a hellfire missile when their wasn't a UAV available."

I don't see the contradiction. To continue to use an existing capability, saves money and is guaranteed to be, at least somewhat, effective. Understand Apaches will be kept in service for quite a while in America, and that all existing scout helicopter squadrons will be disbanded. The Apache squadrons will be designated "Heavy Recon" squadrons, which was probably were the posters at the beginning of thread got their ideas about India will use the Apache.

Yes, that is true for the Helicopters, but not for the attack helicopters like Hind, Apache or Kamov 50. These helicopters are designed from ground up to survive HMGs and other small arms. Apoaches durability is stated to have protection for 23mm bullets! Now, how many 23 mms are the enemy going to lug around. There again the tactics comes into play. What target should the attack helicopters be given, and what terrain and how it should approach the enemy. I again emphasise that Apaches are not going to be thrown at anything and everything, but a systematic role of this platform will be developed for this. It surely is not going to engage a large armoured column alone. But it can always go in immediately after Jaguars or Mig-27s have made their strafing run of the column and softened the AAs, enemy has exhausted MANPADs - squadron of Apache can cause havoc in that situation among the disorganised enemy. Have you thought about that? The battle-field is not a single dimension video game. every asset is used in conjunction with other assets to get the goal of killing men and destroying machines. Apache will fit right in.

Strongly suspect the days of helicopters shooting up convoys are over, if they ever existed. I, obviously, have absolutely no idea but imagine the Indian Apaches wont ever be entering contested airspace. So, I don't think MANPADS or AAA, or whatever, is really much of an issue.

But, what do I know...

Again that is a personal opinion. But, armour is a necessity given we have a huge boundary with deserts and plains with our enemy. A mobile battle system in such a scenario is valuable.

Thought you asked for my opinion. You were being hypothetical? Anyway, it's pretty irrelevant.

Trust me, Indian pilots won't have any problem like that.

Good Couldn't happen to nicer people than a Pakistani terrorist.

Very much possible, and I guess that is what attracted the IAF to it more. But, till we get the required UAVs, Apache is going to be used as a combat attack helo, and if needs be it will go in and play that very role.

People at the start of the thread i.e. Kunal Biswas and those guys that have army contacts were saying recon and command and control, not attack. But, I don't know/ (or care really).

Oh, having a pragmatic streak is considered a good thing. Or do you want your armed forces to live in a la la land where like some shitty movies only the bad guys die?

See that is the problem with people, when they have not faced any real enemy to match his strength and have beaten and bullied the weaker guys, he forgets that when 'fighting' you get hurt. India, unfortunately, will not be going to bully another weaker power like you and your masters do, it will face the enemies, who know how to fight and have the strength for it. So, I am pragmatic. What are you gonna do?

Don't make this another India versus Whoever thing, it's boring. I was calling you a Chairbourne Warrior, not all Indians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians

Keep peddling BS boy. You might overtake porkis in Pakiness

Did I hurt your feelings. Do you need a hanky?

Let me give you a free advice- disband your useless armed forces and become the 51st state of USA. Will save you lot of money and don't have to suffer the questions about sovereignty

Did I claim that aborigines hadn't gotten shot?

Yeah, I guess you did hurt my feelings a bit. I don't like seeing someone's anger and hate turning them into something as stupid as you are. Guess I'm a bit of a dreamer and like to think all human have some intrinsic worth, but you're proving me wrong Mad Indian.

So, thanks for that, I guess. I shouldn't be so innocent.

Either you are naive(believes in what your govt peddles) or stupid(don't understand what you read) or liar(hiding your misdeeds). Pick one title and proceed and learn your history.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jan/13/australia.barbaramcmahon
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/...-terrible-wrong/2008/01/11/1199988589363.html

Read the first para:
"It's been more than 10 years so it is now almost impossible for people like me to recall clearly the shock and the horror, the shame and the sadness we felt when we first read (or read about) Bringing Them Home, the report of the inquiry by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission into what was termed "the separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families"."

Better learn something rather than continuing to be just another POS.

Did I claim that adoption policy of that time was good?

So, you're still sticking with your claim that adoption= cultural genocide= genocide? Yeah, you can still go eat a bowl of

Spoiler: not nice word

poo

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

@apple- you claimed they were poor and white children and now you are trying to sidestep it that you did not comment on adoption policy. In fact it was:

forceful adoption= genocide or cultural genocide. Pay attention to the word forceful. With every denial you are just proving that you are an even bigger POS.

100,000 forceful adoptions!!

 

[jackprince]

nn

@jackprince,

@apple gave you a real life Australian Army example about Dutch Apache Pilots refusing to risk it against Taliban of all adversaries. And you just respond with a :
"Trust me, Indian pilots won't have any problem like that."

I had thought it would be reasonable to leave you with your blue pill, but now I am doubly sure you must be left with your blue pill.

What kind of response was that yaar.

It was response that follows the tradition of Indian Armed Forces.

If you remember, and I know you do, traditionally Indian soldiers never bulked at risks and went in to do the job, despite odds against them, and came out winners. The Dutch pilots were operating in a place alien to them, and fighting not for their own nation but for an obscure cause that meant little to them. So they would be averse to taking risk is normal, when, if Apache is called in to serve India in future, the pilots will be fighting for the motherland and if they are tasked with a risky job, despite the odds and risk, they will do it.

The history of Indian army and airforces is full of such stories. Or have you forgotten the heroes of our armed forces?

Take a look at the names and read the citations. You will know (I know that you already know) how they defied the caution and fought despite the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Param_Vir_Chakra#Recipients
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Vir_Chakra

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

nn

It was response that follows the tradition of Indian Armed Forces.

If you remember, and I know you do, traditionally Indian soldiers never bulked at risks and went in to do the job, despite odds against them, and came out winners. The Dutch pilots were operating in a place alien to them, and fighting not for their own nation but for an obscure cause that meant little to them. So they would be averse to taking risk is normal, when, if Apache is called in to serve India in future, the pilots will be fighting for the motherland and if they are tasked with a risky job, despite the odds and risk, they will do it.

The history of Indian army and airforces is full of such stories. Or have you forgotten the heroes of our armed forces?

Take a look at the names and read the citations. You will know (I know that you already know) how they defied the caution and fought despite the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Param_Vir_Chakra#Recipients
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Vir_Chakra

Apparently, IAF refused to fly when shot down initially in the Kargil war. It was only latter in the war that they came back with a superior plan. @Yumdoot made sense in his last post.

 

[jackprince]

Apparently, IAF refused to fly when shot down initially in the Kargil war. It was only latter in the war that they came back with a superior plan. @Yumdoot made sense in his last post.

Actually, that is the reason IA wants their own birds.

Also, IAF, as in its brass caved, but not the boys. They carried on even after the threat of MANPAD was clear. Don't forget what Sq. Leader Ahuja did. He risked his own life to look for Fl. Lt. Nachiketa.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Actually, that is the reason IA wants their own birds.

Also, IAF, as in its brass caved, but not the boys. They carried on even after the threat of MANPAD was clear. Don't forget what Sq. Leader Ahuja did. He risked his own life to look for Fl. Lt. Nachiketa.

All I know they called off the operations for 15 days.

 

[apple]

@apple- you claimed they were poor and white children and now you are trying to sidestep it that you did not comment on adoption policy. In fact it was:

forceful adoption= genocide or cultural genocide. Pay attention to the word forceful. With every denial you are just proving that you are an even bigger POS.

100,000 forceful adoptions!!

I didn't try to sidestep, it asked where did I claim the adoption policy of the time was good. I never said aboriginal children weren't also adopted. I can't be bothered writing anything more to you. The same goes for Mad Indian. I wont be losing anything by not being able to see your comments.

So, congratulations, after the longest time, I have 2 new names for my Ignore List

 

[Yumdoot]

nn

It was response that follows the tradition of Indian Armed Forces.

If you remember, and I know you do, traditionally Indian soldiers never bulked at risks and went in to do the job, despite odds against them, and came out winners. The Dutch pilots were operating in a place alien to them, and fighting not for their own nation but for an obscure cause that meant little to them. So they would be averse to taking risk is normal, when, if Apache is called in to serve India in future, the pilots will be fighting for the motherland and if they are tasked with a risky job, despite the odds and risk, they will do it.

The history of Indian army and airforces is full of such stories. Or have you forgotten the heroes of our armed forces?

Take a look at the names and read the citations. You will know (I know that you already know) how they defied the caution and fought despite the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Param_Vir_Chakra#Recipients
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Vir_Chakra

If 'traditionally Indian soldiers never bulked at risks and went in to do the job, despite odds against them' then does that mean we have to make sure they keep doing that?

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad - you are being generous.

What happened was that IAF honcho had his own theory that Nubra missions can carry that many rockets more and sent them in on that basis. Despite the fact that Anzas had been used against our pilots prior to that. And an Indian Army brigiadier who I wonder is still in service, accused IAF pilots of being coward. Says something about officer like qualities and leadership blah blah. God forbid if this brigadier and his attitude now finds his way into the Army Aviation Corp.

When the world over the Armies are known to be losing helos at nearly 2/3 times the rate compared to Air forces. For Armies there is no culture of understanding the element of Vayu.

 

[jouni]

nn

It was response that follows the tradition of Indian Armed Forces.

If you remember, and I know you do, traditionally Indian soldiers never bulked at risks and went in to do the job, despite odds against them, and came out winners. The Dutch pilots were operating in a place alien to them, and fighting not for their own nation but for an obscure cause that meant little to them. So they would be averse to taking risk is normal, when, if Apache is called in to serve India in future, the pilots will be fighting for the motherland and if they are tasked with a risky job, despite the odds and risk, they will do it.

The history of Indian army and airforces is full of such stories. Or have you forgotten the heroes of our armed forces?

Take a look at the names and read the citations. You will know (I know that you already know) how they defied the caution and fought despite the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Param_Vir_Chakra#Recipients
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Vir_Chakra

Who is the top ace among Indian airmen? And with how many aerial victories? I mean all times not just today.

 

[hit&run]

@jackprince,

@apple gave you a real life Australian Army example about Dutch Apache Pilots refusing to risk it against Taliban of all adversaries. And you just respond with a :
"Trust me, Indian pilots won't have any problem like that."

I had thought it would be reasonable to leave you with your blue pill, but now I am doubly sure you must be left with your blue pill.

What kind of response was that yaar.

I am sorry I am not able to understand your point of view.

During war anything that can fly, crawl, walk, run, towed or tracked can be hit.

What is your objection ?

 

[tharikiran]

I don't think Apaches will ever be in direct line of sight.Their radars and other electronics will help them acquire tanks by staying beyond horizon. More like ..you can't see me but I can see you. That's the only way to operate this helicopter or creep behind trees and mountain tops . No helicopter can survive man-pads. And this one can't stand bullets.But, we have seen Apaches escorting convoys in Iraq. Even, with threats of RPG's.

I think, it's more to do with I shoot you before you shoot me.
Fact is, Apaches have served on the front lines with Man-pad threats before.

This from wiki--"The Apache was the only Army platform capable of providing accurate CAS duties for Operation Anaconda, regularly taking fire during the intense early fighting, they were typically repaired quickly."

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I didn't try to sidestep, it asked where did I claim the adoption policy of the time was good. I never said aboriginal children weren't also adopted. I can't be bothered writing anything more to you. The same goes for Mad Indian. I wont be losing anything by not being able to see your comments.

So, congratulations, after the longest time, I have 2 new names for my Ignore List

Dude you are such a pathetic liar. You are still using the word- "also adopted" while the whole "the stolen generation" policy of your govt. was against the aborigines. The only excuse that you can now give is that you are bad at your native language in which case I cannot help you.

Read again and again till it gets into your head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Enough digression on this thread, so I will leave it here.

 

[jackprince]

...............................

 

[tharun]

Which is better attack helicopter Apache AH-64 or Bell AH-1Z

 

[Zebra]

.......................extended range sensing, level IV unmanned aerial vehicle control, extended range fire control radar, extended range missiles, and data fusion to merge off- and on-board sensor imagery. In addition, the Block III Apache Longbow will interface with Stryker Brigade Combat Teams and Future Combat Systems with a fully compatible and rapidly reconfigurable open systems architecture mission processor design................

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Helicopters/AH-64E-Apache-Guardian_a000519004.aspx

 

[Zebra]

@jackprince,

@apple gave you a real life Australian Army example about Dutch Apache Pilots refusing to risk it against Taliban of all adversaries..........

Sir, IA gonna be one of the army in Asia, who will have more numbers air assets of their own, under its own Army Aviation Corps.

Now its just question of few more years only.

 

[pmaitra]

The only excuse that you can now give is that you are bad at your native language in which case I cannot help you.

Not an excuse, but a fact—he is not completely literate in English.

Read again and again till it gets into your head:

Ain't gonna work. He makes stuff up as he goes. No matter how many times he reads, he will always listten to the voices in his head.

As far as I am concerned, I think it is better to keep people, who have consistently shown a malignant disinterest in reading those they are countering, completely out of a thread.