Another Proof of Marx's Folly: Cuba

[Adux]

"There is no difference between the principles, policies and practical results of socialism - and those of any historical or prehistorical tyranny. Socialism is merely democratic absolute monarchy - that is, a system of absolutism without a fixed head, open to seizure of power by all comers, by any ruthless climber, opportunist, adventurer, demagogue or thug. When you consider socialism, do not fool yourself about its nature. Remember that there is no such dichotomy as 'human rights' versus 'property rights.' No human rights can exist without property rights. Since material goods are produced by the mind and effort of individual men, and are needed to sustain their lives, if the producer does not own the result of his effort, he does not own his life. To deny property rights means to turn men into property owned by the state. Whoever claims the 'right' to 'redistribute' the wealth produced by others is claiming the 'right' to treat human beings as chattel.

Ayn Rand.

 

[pmaitra]

I cant believe Indians are still romantic about socialism after 40 years completely stupid mixed economy causing utter poverty and license raj. I think it is mostly to do with the fact, people werent old enough or nor are they seeing the true evils of leftist ideologies.
Want to see how Unions are stiffling the country, lower standards of CBSE/ICSE Schools to be on par with Government Schools. Stop promotion of more CBSE/ICSE Schools, ensure 25% quota for seats. DEO will have complete control of a private entity. However intelligent a CBSE student is, he will always find himself 14% marks lesser than a similar kid in government schools because of mark normalization.

Basically lower standards, this is what we will give, and the population have to shut up and take it.

Basically the 3% Unionized and party affiliated population in Kerala is holding the rest of the population hostage. Unions must be banned.

Adux,

You are back and with vengeance.

I expected you and your harangue much earlier.

BTW, all the BS that you posted about marks, let me tell you, marks normalisation happens here, in the United States of America. Go yell at them. Too bad, there are no communists here in the USA to bash. :taunt1:

 

[civfanatic]

Please stick to the issue. Ad hominem is a poor refuge for intellectuals like you... 8)

There is no 'issue' to stick to. This whole thread and its premise is BS.

Private ownership of property has existed in almost all socialist states, not just Cuba but also in the USSR, the world's first constitutionally socialist state. Lenin's NEP is a good example of this. What the socialist revolutions accomplished was the redistribution of property from the hands of a small, privileged elite to the greater public. Private property need not be abolished completely because the Marxist goal of a stateless society is impossible in the world as it is today. States must continue to exist, and as long as states exist so will property.

There is a difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism, but as a 'political scientist' I'm sure that you know what the differences are.

 

[asianobserve]

Now look at India. It is trading with the US and we do have a trade deficit with them. Yet we are growing. PRC is also growing, by trading with the USA. I am sure Cuba would have also grown by trading with the USA. So Marx is not really the problem here, is it? If he was, then what stopped the author (OP) from picking PRC as an example to prove Marx's folly? Think!!!

I don't think India has dificts in trading with US. Please check the page from US Census Bureau for goods traded:Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with India I don't know about services though.

BTW, the author was writing about Cuba, not Socialism. He highlighted the reasons for Cuba's poor economic plight, one of them is tight state control of ownership. Of course the other equally punishing is US trade embargo.

 

[civfanatic]

Adux,

You are back and with vengeance.

I expected you and your harangue much earlier.

BTW, all the BS that you posted about marks, let me tell you, marks normalisation happens here, in the United States of America. Go yell at them. Too bad, there are no communists here in the USA to bash. :taunt1:

As a general rule, it is best to ignore anyone who quotes Ayn Rand. That woman is the manifestation of everything that is wrong with humanity.

 

[Adux]

Adux,

You are back and with vengeance.

I expected you and your harangue much earlier.

BTW, all the BS that you posted about marks, let me tell you, marks normalisation happens here, in the United States of America. Go yell at them. Too bad, there are no communists here in the USA to bash. :taunt1:

I can see that you are back at posting your un-informed posts. We have to tolerate such idiots like you. Who call for socialism and communism in my country while sitting in a capitalist country enjoying its benefits. Hypocrite much?

Seriously son, I suggest you read up on what is 'mark normalization' and how is it carried out in the Kerala example I gave you.
If you dont know the differnce between the Mark Normalization in United States of America and what is being done by the Kerala Government, or even how the Kerala and Tamil Nadu government has taken different approaches, if you dont know that son, Shut up. Dont waste bandwidth.

 

[Adux]

As a general rule, it is best to ignore anyone who quotes Ayn Rand. That woman is the manifestation of everything that is wrong with humanity.

Yes, we can see how the people who followed her principles have killed, been dictators, created genocides, made poverty stricken hellholes of completely successful economies, abused human rights and individual rights. All the while the people who followed the principles of Karl Marx has been just bambi.

/end sarcasm.

 

[pmaitra]

I don't think India has dificts in trading with US. Please check the page from US Census Bureau for goods traded:Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with India

You are right. My mistake.

US-India Trade Balance
The U.S. goods trade deficit with India was $10.3 billion in 2010 a 118.2% increase ($5.6 billion) over 2009.
The United States has a services trade deficit of $2.4 billion with India in 2009 (latest data available).

Now, that $2.4 billion is dwarfed by $5.8 billion that India paid the US (Boeing) for those transporters.

Overall, I believe there is a trade surplus that the US enjoys with India if you take all the money flow into account, including those in defense sector, but then I am making a reasonable guess.

References:
http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/south-central-asia/india
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...docId=CNG.208b9d6ccaec0fec7dab7bf5ab33762a.e1

 

[asianobserve]

There is no 'issue' to stick to. This whole thread and its premise is BS.

Private ownership of property has existed in almost all socialist states, not just Cuba but also in the USSR, the world's first constitutionally socialist state. Lenin's NEP is a good example of this. What the socialist revolutions accomplished was the redistribution of property from the hands of a small, privileged elite to the greater public. Private property need not be abolished completely because the Marxist goal of a stateless society is impossible in the world as it is today. States must continue to exist, and as long as states exist so will property.

There is a difference between Marxism and Marxism-Leninism, but as a 'political scientist' I'm sure that you know what the differences are.

Ouch. You're making fun of yourself playing with words.

 

[asianobserve]

You are right. My mistake.

US-India Trade Balance
The U.S. goods trade deficit with India was $10.3 billion in 2010 a 118.2% increase ($5.6 billion) over 2009.
The United States has a services trade deficit of $2.4 billion with India in 2009 (latest data available).

Now, that $2.4 billion is dwarfed by $5.8 billion that India paid the US (Boeing) for those transporters.

Overall, I believe there is a trade surplus that the US enjoys with India.

I admire your sense of focus. You think in one dorection and orient facts to suit that direction... Although you could be right. But that still does not make capitalism evil.

 

[civfanatic]

Ouch. You're making fun of yourself playing with words.

You're revealing your (in)competence as a 'political scientist' by showing you have no clue what you are talking about

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, we can see how the people who followed her principles have killed, been dictators, created genocides, made poverty stricken hellholes of completely successful economies, abused human rights and individual rights. All the while the people who followed the principles of Karl Marx has been just bambi.

/end sarcasm.

Need I say that socialism is a good excuse for megalomaniacal dictators: Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fidel, and the Dear Socialists themselves, the Kims!?

 

[Adux]

Somebody need to list out the Socialist, Communist countries and Democratic Capitalist countries, see the stark difference in the character of the nation. Some complete ninocoomps wont even see truth even if it hits their face like a arab driving into a lamp post. What is even laughable is that, most of these idiots who harp for socialism and communism are sitting comfortably in some capitalist country earning money in dollars, while promoting socialism and communism here in India, and people who stay here has to suffer the consequences of those intolerable systems.

So India remains poor and under-developed, with a population who is not hard working with a sense entitlement, trying to act like parasite's by sucking of the hard work of people who actually contribute something to the nation, and these ninocoomps could come to India on their vacations and act like 'brown sahibs' with the local population. Something they cant get, if India is as rich and successful as America. Some people really need to have their face punched in.

 

[pmaitra]

I can see that you are back at posting your un-informed posts. We have to tolerate such idiots like you. Who call for socialism and communism in my country while sitting in a capitalist country enjoying its benefits. Hypocrite much?

Seriously son, I suggest you read up on what is 'mark normalization' and how is it carried out in the Kerala example I gave you.
If you dont know the differnce between the Mark Normalization in United States of America and what is being done by the Kerala Government, or even how the Kerala and Tamil Nadu government has taken different approaches, if you dont know that son, Shut up. Dont waste bandwidth.

Listen Adux, I don't think morons like you should be trolling around in the first place. Quit being a douche and talk some sense. Every time you post it seems like you are on a new high, with a lot of bravado filled sentences full of misleading data.

I don't give a simian's posterior about what you perceive mark normalisation to be. I have serious doubts whether you can even compute the mean and standard deviation given a population, leave alone normalisation.

Now quit being a joker of the 'hood and try to read instead of jumping up like a jack-in-the-box and spouting drivel like a motley pipsqueak!

 

[asianobserve]

You're revealing your (in)competence as a 'political scientist' by showing you have no clue what you are talking about

Dude you're hairsplitting! Just consider Marxism as the legislation and Leninism as the implementing rules. No need to elaborate or else we could end up with Nordic Socialist parties.

 

[pmaitra]

I admire your sense of focus. You think in one dorection and orient facts to suit that direction... Although you could be right. But that still does not make capitalism evil.

I said I believe. I searched but did not find enough information to back up my belief so I did not make a claim. I corrected myself on the purely trade part.

P.S.: You could call it orienting facts, but when we buy military hardware from the US, money does flow out of India into the US and that does matter.

You can find pros and cons in all systems, capitalism, communism, socialism, dictatorship, feudalism, monarchy, democracy, or any permutation or combination thereof.

 

[Adux]

Listen Adux, I don't think morons like you should be trolling around in the first place. Quit being a douche and talk some sense. Every time you post it seems like you are on a new high, with a lot of bravado filled sentences full of misleading data.

I don't give a simian's posterior about what you perceive mark normalisation to be. I have serious doubts whether you can even compute the mean and standard deviation given a population, leave alone normalisation.

Now quit being a joker of the 'hood and try to read instead of jumping up like a jack-in-the-box and spouting drivel like a motley pipsqueak!

Ah, Just as I thought... All Gas. Now that we went to specifics of the said subject, You run tail. You are a complete idiot who has no business talking to intelligent people or even being in their fora. You are just a troll who has some grandiose idea about himself, but in reality is nothing but a ZERO.

Dont apologize, run along. I really dont care for your foolishness.

 

[pmaitra]

As a general rule, it is best to ignore anyone who quotes Ayn Rand. That woman is the manifestation of everything that is wrong with humanity.

It's fun to read his posts and imagine him exploding in rage.

 

[pmaitra]

Ah, Just as I thought... All Gas. Now that we went to specifics of the said subject, You run tail. You are a complete idiot who has no business talking to intelligent people or even being in their fora. You are just a troll who has some grandiose idea about himself, but in reality is nothing but a ZERO.

Dont apologize, run along. I really dont care for your foolishness.

Specifics? What specifics?

Keep quiet - shhhhh!

Just read.

Also, see how AsianObserve and I are debating, being on the opposite sides. Educate and civilize yourself first. Had it not been for mark normalisation, you would probably have never passed high-school!

 

[civfanatic]

A major part of Marxist political theory is the "dictatorship of the proletariat", the intermediate socialist phase between the proletarian revolution and the establishment of a communist society. What exactly is a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'? Marx never explicitly defined it, which is why the idea is so controversial. However, the Paris Commune of 1871 has often been hailed as an exemplary model of direct worker control and a truly socialist government, including by Marx himself.

A similar situation could be seen in early Revolutionary Russia, when organisations of workers' councils, called soviets, held considerable political power. These councils formed the basis of Bolshevik power, and gave the Soviet Union its name.
Soviet democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia