Amir Khan on the cover of TIME

ani82v

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The things is, is it bad? If so, how is it bad?
It is a mental colonialism; looking at west for approval. We have already suffered and have been suffering from this inferiority. We may eventually get coaxed into looking at ourselves from American lens.

is it bad?

Its not an instant poison but you should be cautious lest you get swept away.
 

ani82v

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Take your pick of which gold standard of America we should accept. As far as science, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Medicines, accept their standard.

Take Fields medal as a standard for mathematicians as our standard.

Instead of rejecting entirely, look for positive things and inculcate in our system. Don't accept them completely. By taking best out of every country in each field, we can progress faster to catch up to them otherwise we will always remain behind.
I agree with you here. There is nothing wrong in learning good things for others. You should get inspired by the achievements of others and this should not be restricted to West. And thats not the point.
My point was Amir Khan in Time magazine is not a big thing that it gets such media attention in India. The root cause of this is inferiority complex.
 

Oracle

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It is a mental colonialism; looking at west for approval. We have already suffered and have been suffering from this inferiority. We may eventually get coaxed into looking at ourselves from American lens.

is it bad?

Its not an instant poison but you should be cautious lest you get swept away.
What approval? And who feels this inferiority complex? Not me.
 

Oracle

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My point was about the society in general and media approach.
A large section of society already follows western lifestyle. Is that bad? I follow too. Having followed it have I raped, plundered, looted anybody? They have a lot of good things to learn. We should be happy that Aamir Khan is on the cover of TIME. He has been recognized for his work.

As human beings our inferiority complex comes out of jealousy of seeing people in good societal positions, and burning with envy of what we probably would never get. Happens with everybody. That does not mean we criticize what is good. Again, good and bad is entirely how we perceive it.

If you visit Shillong or Kohima, you'd be surprised by the urbanized people there. Not many in Bangalore or Mumbai can claim the fashion sense those people have. It's simple. It's by choice.
 

ani82v

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A large section of society already follows western lifestyle. Is that bad? I follow too. Having followed it have I raped, plundered, looted anybody? They have a lot of good things to learn. We should be happy that Aamir Khan is on the cover of TIME. He has been recognized for his work.

As human beings our inferiority complex comes out of jealousy of seeing people in good societal positions, and burning with envy of what we probably would never get. Happens with everybody. That does not mean we criticize what is good. Again, good and bad is entirely how we perceive it.

If you visit Shillong or Kohima, you'd be surprised by the urbanized people there. Not many in Bangalore or Mumbai can claim the fashion sense those people have. It's simple. It's by choice.
You have taken it to another extreme.
You read my posts again and nothing I have said has anything related to the bold part.
 

Jim Street

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You can arrive at this conclusion only after a superficial look at the situation.

People who go for extra mile for fame would be like Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, Poonam Pandey and Sherlyn Chopra etc etc and shit people you see on Roadies.

The people who really want to do stuff are already doing it for the real motivation of doing it is personal conviction.

The fact that they are not recognized is because our system does not reward them with social equity which it should and that is because we are still a developing society. We have not many Olympic winners, not many inventors and real researchers to speak of, not many sportsmen to idolize is because the priority of society are not such. We as a people are still in survival mode in our instincts.

We can not copy these noble values by emulation for they will be rootless and will wither away over time. These can only be evolved and cultivated over a period of time and I would give it more time than taking short cuts.
They achieve this fame coz people watch their movies, tapes, videos, read magazines containing articles about such people. Try to find out how many hits on pictures and videos of these people receive compared to articles and documentaries of social activists, environentalists etc. I don't like Roadies, I am against that show since its inception. Answer for this question is "Your choice".

As long as people choose to know, see more about these people, they will enable such magazines, TV-shows, videos on youtube,, pron websites etc. If Indians start avoiding them, you can save our culture. But hey, this is called open mindedness, adaptation with new world etc. etc. Few excuses to avoid being bashed. No wonder pre-maritial sex, divorces etc, are on rise in India.

I agree with your point of personal conviction. I always supported definition of individualism by Ayan Rand. One should work for what he thinks is right., he shouldn't get into distorted collectivism. Read about Herd Behavior, Opinion Formation, Decision Making and Social influence.

People really work for betterment of society, think about the people in need but deep inside they do it for their satisfaction, to make their mark in society etc. But these people need publicity too. If you don't know about an NGO which is working near your place. you won't give them money because you just don't know their existence. (I can explain this point in detail, if you want)

I agree with your current survival mode argument. Your statement is answer to those who bash Indian space program, Nuclear submarines etc. I also blame faulty system of distribution of our money and our priorities. But there are places where we HAVE to work istead of investing all our efforts in removing poverty, malnourishment etc, These programs HAVE to be run in parallel

I would also like to pint out that we gave so much fame to our cricketers, film personalities, go mad about them etc. people revere Amitabh Bacchan and Rajnikant while completely ignore the people who should be recognised. How many people on this forum know about Swami Nigmanand who died of hunger while protesting against illegal mining. Leave entire country, our youth etc.

Swami Nigamananda dies on 76th day hunger strike

So its better, use these forums, Facebook, Twitter like social networks to increase the awareness so that one person living in US who have money and want to do something for his country while still living in US.

Make Narendra Modi's work so popular that political parties tries to imitate it, take his projects and apply in their states to come to power and get re-elected again. Inform only FIVE people. That's it.
 

Oracle

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You have taken it to another extreme.
You read my posts again and nothing I have said has anything related to the bold part.
The line in bold is not an attack, surely not at you. It's the nature of human beings in general I highlighted.

The last line is what I meant about social values etc.

Whatever you say or do, you just cannot stop the urbanization of future youths of India. But I do not think, if we slowly transform into a Western society we'd become savages. They care for their parents. They believe in God. The difference probably lies in food habits and the way they see things.
 

Cliff@sea

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Where they decided for us. They saw his work and thought to mention him.
Granted . . . i am not against what they chose to highlight , i am against Indians attaching too much importance to recognition in the west.

They even mentioned an IAS officer for his honesty and his work in the past. (I think he was later involved corruption)\
Exactly . . . Their accolades are often based on superficial perceptions.

Fine, don't let anything that influences our social values. Get isolated and introduce laws, censorship of media etc like Iran, China, KSA. Every year the total money earned by Hollywood is increasing. They are releasing movies at the same time they release in their own country.
i have never advocated an extreme , but assigning accolades coming from the west as the ultimate stamp of authority, in effect translates into them (and i mean the US) deciding for us , our direction of growth.

Let me remind you in 2009 when the UPA returned to power, The Economist on their cover hailed it as their own victory against the rabid Hindu right wingers of this country



Something i found troubling even then , when i was one of those who celebrated UPA's victory.

Are their journals independent of agenda . . .Doesn't seem so

I couldn't thought of that back in 2000. MTV, V channel, Star movies, HBO etc, all have penetrated in middle and higher class of our population and social values are changing.
and it proves that . . . . . ?

Coming to achievement of sciences, your argument doesn't make sense. So Einstein, Newton, Bohr, Faraday etc should not be respected or awarded I mean they just found that already was present their.

If you go to heaven, shout at him that "Hey Einstein, I don't care about your E=MC^2 equation, it was already true before you put it in equations. You are no genius":thumb:
I think you misunderstood what i said . . . .

I meant in such cases even if the Gold standard was set by the American institues of Learning / Award committees,
It posits no danger to our social values as such disciplines our independent of societal principles .

So i m fine with that.
 
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Jim Street

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A large section of society already follows western lifestyle. Is that bad? I follow too. Having followed it have I raped, plundered, looted anybody? They have a lot of good things to learn. We should be happy that Aamir Khan is on the cover of TIME. He has been recognized for his work.

As human beings our inferiority complex comes out of jealousy of seeing people in good societal positions, and burning with envy of what we probably would never get. Happens with everybody. That does not mean we criticize what is good. Again, good and bad is entirely how we perceive it.

If you visit Shillong or Kohima, you'd be surprised by the urbanized people there. Not many in Bangalore or Mumbai can claim the fashion sense those people have. It's simple. It's by choice.
People should look into Psychology and Sociology of India and its people. I know generalization is not right because of variations in India in every field. But there are factors and data which MAY help us in understanding about psyche of average Indian.

They should also look into effect of environment on our brain development, creation of neural pathways, abstract things like rationality, tolerance, social values etc.

It all comes down to neuroscience.
 

ani82v

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The line in bold is not an attack, surely not at you. It's the nature of human beings in general I highlighted.

The last line is what I meant about social values etc.

Whatever you say or do, you just cannot stop the urbanization of future youths of India. But I do not think, if we slowly transform into a Western society we'd become savages. They care for their parents. They believe in God. The difference probably lies in food habits and the way they see things.
There will always be a influence from the dominant culture. Look at Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc, they were protected under American wings.
And I am all for urbanization, who wants people to get stuck in village in the memory of former glory.

My point was that when we assimilate the Western influences, we lack the cultural context of what gets accepted and what gets rejected as alien. We lack this cultural reference. And this applies to a lot of people and it gets promoted by influential Media as the most trendy and "in" thing to do which people follow it like herd. I see this media celebration over Amir Khan's mention in Time in this context. Time is just a magazine which issues every week and mentions some people or another. I would have considered it normal if it was considered something not worth reporting in India media.
 

ani82v

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People should look into Psychology and Sociology of India and its people. I know generalization is not right because of variations in India in every field. But there are factors and data which MAY help us in understanding about psyche of average Indian.

They should also look into effect of environment on our brain development, creation of neural pathways, abstract things like rationality, tolerance, social values etc.

It all comes down to neuroscience.
No it all comes down to quantum physics. :D
 

Oracle

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There will always be a influence from the dominant culture. Look at Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc, they were protected under American wings.
And I am all for urbanization, who wants people to get stuck in village in the memory of former glory.

My point was that when we assimilate the Western influences, we lack the cultural context of what gets accepted and what gets rejected as alien. We lack this cultural reference. And this applies to a lot of people and it gets promoted by influential Media as the most trendy and "in" thing to do which people follow it like herd. I see this media celebration over Amir Khan's mention in Time in this context. Time is just a magazine which issues every week and mentions some people or another. I would have considered it normal if it was considered something not worth reporting in India media.
Dude, you know the Indian media. They would even telecast and start a debate on two stray dogs fighting. This is the way it is. It will take some time to for them to become professionals.

As about society in general, everybody heralds the coming of spring. I hate it. I can't sleep as right from 4 AM the cuckoo starts it's nonsense singing. And then summer follows. :(
 
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Jim Street

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Granted . . . i am not against what they chose to highlight , i am against Indians attaching too much importance to recognition in the west.
Exactly . . . Their accolades are often based on superficial perceptions.
i have never advocated an extreme , but assigning accolades coming from the west as the ultimate stamp of authority, in effect translates into them (and i mean the US) deciding for us , our direction of growth.
Let me remind you in 2009 when the UPA returned to power, The Economist on their cover hailed it as their own victory against the rabid Hindu right wingers of this country
Something i found troubling even then , when i was one of those who celebrated UPA's victory.
Are their journals independent of agenda . . .Doesn't seem so
and it proves that . . . . .
I think you misunderstood what i said . . . .
I meant in such cases even if the Gold standard was set by the American institues of Learning / Award committees,
It posits no danger to our social values as such disciplines our independent of societal principles .

So i m fine with that.
Don't accept their standards and journals.
Let me explain with an example:

I have seen increase in International Journals especially from China and India. I was part of one of the reputated society in our field and creation of its journal..

My Prof. once told me that a reviewer allowed his paper to published Just because he belong to third world country. It happened decades ago. He has visited all the famous universities, worked in NASA. South Asians or people of East used to have their own group. NASA never allowed foreign researchers to work in their important projects then.

Buddy, India is trying to establish its benchmark but we are going in same direction of China. they publish papers like rabbit growth. This race affects quality.

West is ahead due to their strict review system. They may take 1.5 years just to publish one article of yours.
(Well it also depends on how fast the reviewers submit their report)

Their standard is high as they don't compromise on quality even if it means publishing less no. of articles.

Don't forget they have best research facilities, so they can verify their research and back it up with analysis, computer simulation etc. Many Indians need supercomputers to do cutting edge research in which we are behind them. That's why our best mind stays in US universities and companies.

So as long as we are behind in infrastructure, we will remain behind. Instead of reinventing the wheel or taking things on our ego, we should rather strive for knowledge and development of our country. First catch up to their level of research then talk about creating a new identity. This can be done if we work without emotions and collaborate with people all around the world.

Collaboration is the key to raise our own standard.

As far as our media is concerned, I think you know its all about TRP. They even show programs on Cows taken by aliens, girl beating a boy, I repeat these examples because I found it most weird.

What you find over-excitement, I think it MIGHT do something good or something bad. Its has its pros and cons. All that matter is your perception.

I agree that inferiority complex exists in Indians. It is decreasing but its very slow process. It also depends on what our generation teach to next generation.
 

Cliff@sea

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Don't accept their standards and journals.
Let me explain with an example:

I have seen increase in International Journals especially from China and India. I was part of one of the reputated society in our field and creation of its journal..

My Prof. once told me that a reviewer allowed his paper to published Just because he belong to third world country. It happened decades ago. He has visited all the famous universities, worked in NASA. South Asians or people of East used to have their own group. NASA never allowed foreign researchers to work in their important projects then.

Buddy, India is trying to establish its benchmark but we are going in same direction of China. they publish papers like rabbit growth. This race affects quality.

West is ahead due to their strict review system. They may take 1.5 years just to publish one article of yours.
(Well it also depends on how fast the reviewers submit their report)

Their standard is high as they don't compromise on quality even if it means publishing less no. of articles.

Don't forget they have best research facilities, so they can verify their research and back it up with analysis, computer simulation etc. Many Indians need supercomputers to do cutting edge research in which we are behind them. That's why our best mind stays in US universities and companies.

So as long as we are behind in infrastructure, we will remain behind. Instead of reinventing the wheel or taking things on our ego, we should rather strive for knowledge and development of our country. First catch up to their level of research then talk about creating a new identity. This can be done if we work without emotions and collaborate with people all around the world.

Collaboration is the key to raise our own standard.
Your entire arguement is based on an example from a field where i have already said that,

There should not be a problem at all in accepting the benchmarks they set.

I concede that their standard of scientific research and review is the best in the world

Where i have reservations are entirely different fields which have nothing to do with what you basing your argument on

The Cover of TIME magazine has little to do with their standards of academic review.

As far as our media is concerned, I think you know its all about TRP. They even show programs on Cows taken by aliens, girl beating a boy, I repeat these examples because I found it most weird.

What you find over-excitement, I think it MIGHT do something good or something bad. Its has its pros and cons. All that matter is your perception.

I agree that inferiority complex exists in Indians. It is decreasing but its very slow process. It also depends on what our generation teach to next generation.
No comments . . . . More or less agree with it except for the underlined part,

Our Media is not just directed by the thirst for TRP ratings but also the agenda of Government in power .

And that exactly is my point about US media and Journals such as TIME
 
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Known_Unknown

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If Amir doesn't get paid, what difference will that make, except for making the producers richer? Why wouldn't he charge money for the show?
The guy is getting more publicity than even Anna Hazare! Have you seen any episodes of Satyameva Jayate? The show starts off with Aamir's monologue on how he wants to give something back to society, how he feels that he must do his duty to bring out a change etc etc.

Well if that's really the case, then he's an idea Aamir. If you really want to bring about a change and are not being a -----ing Dhongi d*ck about it, how about you donate a few hours every week of your time to shoot the show and contribute the 3 crore you earn to whichever cause you're promoting in every episode? We're not telling you to dip into your pocket to donate money, just donate a few hours of your time each week.

But no, he won't do that. He will get fat and stinking rich off of the miseries of women who suffered acid attacks or parents who were thrown out of their house by their children and on top of that, our sycophantic media houses will sing his praises every week for "bringing awareness"!!!

From Aamir's point of view, this is the best deal he could ever get! He may be getting paid 40 crore per movie, but with this show, every 13 episodes he earns the same amount of money for far less effort, no worry about whether the project will succeed, and on top of that, free publicity & platitudes from the world media for being "socially active"!!! -----ed up world we live in, gets my blood boiling when I see such dhongi shameless third rate scoundrels. :mad:
 

KS

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I dont particularly like this showman called Amir Khan. Salman is far more down to earth.
 

Jim Street

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I dont particularly like this showman called Amir Khan. Salman is far more down to earth.
I agree but remember he did kill those black bucks and got away with it. Forest department couldn't do anything. But lets not get into this.
 
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