America and its response to genocides

[Galaxy]

Biggest proponents for Muslim genocides are Chinese

Biggest proponents for Muslim genocides are Kurdish, Dr. Assad Family, Saddam Hussain, etc.

Assad father-son combo Killed 1,00,000+ Muslims and ruled forcefully for 40 years. [You can start reading from Hama massacre way back in 80's]

KPP Killed around 10,000's of Muslims
Saddam Hussain Killed 1,00,000 of Muslims.

By the way, Assad, KPP (Kurdish people), Saddam all are/were Muslims too. :shocked:

 

[Damian]

^ Not to mention all insurgents fighting with eachother and with civilians. But this is rather a problem of culture and religion that don't have a one leader that can form a set of rules.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Once again, did US goverment was aware about genocides when they were making this decision? Did they?

Yes..........

 

[Damian]

Yes..........

If yes then when? Yeah, it is obvious that You just take one document and based on it opinion without even sitting above the problem several hours at least trying to analize situation from all sides point of view.

 

[LurkerBaba]

If yes then when? Yeah, it is obvious that You just take one document and based on it opinion without even sitting above the problem several hours at least trying to analize situation from all sides point of view.

You're blinded by your own "political ideology". Too much puppy love for the USA, since USSR did bad stuff with your country.

Going totally into the 1971 war is beyond the scope of this thread. Please post questions regarding 1971 conflicts in one of the existing threads

 

[Damian]

You're , blinded by your own "political ideology". Too much puppy love for the USA, since USSR did bad stuff with your country.

? So asking simple questions and wanting answers and some thinking make me someones puppy? Also where did I say that I don't like Russia, oh IMHO USSR had very important role in world politics as a counterweight to US, it was very bad thing that USSR disapeard, also for US it was bad.

Going totally into the 1971 war is beyond the scope of this thread. Please post questions regarding 1971 conflicts in one of the existing threads

No, it only prooves that You don't have any idea how to answer on my questions... but simplifing world or someones decisions is... simple, thus more popular than thinkin and at least trying to understand the other side.

 

[Galaxy]

It's not about Nation, It's all about national interests.

Few people call Russia bad, Few US, Few China. Few used to say about UK, Spain, Germany, Japan till WW2.

Japanese invasion in china was one of the biggest genocide in last century, I suppose. - Are Japanese Bad ? NO.

German invasion in most of the neighbour countries including holocaust of Jews were biggest genocide - Are German Bad ? No, Apparently I like Germans. It happened because of Hitler, Even I don't hate Hitler, I like him except (Jews holocaust)

After Russia captured Berlin, Do you know what happened ? Another genocide. Are Russians are bad ? NO.

US Invasion of Vietnam, African country, Supporting Pakistan was big genocide. Are they doing same in Afghanistan ? NO, I suppose they are doing good job in killing those Talibanis.

It's all about perception from different POV. Every year, Japanese celebrate Invasion of China on other side, Chinese hate Japanese more than anyone else. Few mistakes do happen and sometime it becomes genocide. Government do know most of the things, They might not support such things, But they can't stop misery of other people, because their country interest is more important.

 

[Daredevil]

The shenanigans of US against India during 1971 war was covered in this thread based on the classified state department documents released in 2005.
http://defenceforumindia.com/military-history/5943-1971-war-how-us-tried-corner-india.html

The US illegally supplied weapons to Pakistan and asked China to start another war front against India to protect its poodle Pakistan.

 

[Galaxy]

Poland also faced Genocide by Germans. But Since, Russia/U.S. saved her at end, may be that's why Polish people support U.S. ?

 

[Damian]

Yes! Damn and I was thinking nobody will say that, yes this is all about national interests, propaganda etc. etc. etc.

So why we should sit in this scheme, we as inteligent people should shake our hands, and instead of argue with each other, better discuss how to make world better, toghether, because nor US, nor Europe, nor India or any other country alone, will do this.

This don't mean we should leave our national interests, but we should not look at eachother with suspision, but rather think if we can be allies.

Small example, do US made mistake taking Pakistan as their allie? Yes, from our point of view and history point of view definetly, now they know their mistake, I think that US will seek India as an allie, and India can be and is very valuabale allie, especially in fight against religious extremism, no matters what is this extreme religion.

Poland also faced Genocide by Germans. But Since, Russia/US saved her, Polish people support US ?

It is a bit more complex, and it takes us in to deeper history of my country and it's neighboures.

I would say this in such way, Poland and US are based on very similiar or even same ideals, this is why most Poles have very strong sentiment for US, and some US independence war heroes were Poles so I think Americans also have some sort of sentiment for us.

 

[Daredevil]

If yes then when? Yeah, it is obvious that You just take one document and based on it opinion without even sitting above the problem several hours at least trying to analize situation from all sides point of view.

Please go through this thread about the role of US during 1971 war. It includes a lot of classified US documents released recently.

http://defenceforumindia.com/military-history/5943-1971-war-how-us-tried-corner-india.html

 

[LurkerBaba]

? So asking simple questions and wanting answers and some thinking make me someones puppy? Also where did I say that I don't like Russia, oh IMHO USSR had very important role in world politics as a counterweight to US, it was very bad thing that USSR disapeard, also for US it was bad.

No, it only prooves that You don't have any idea how to answer on my questions... but simplifing world or someones decisions is... simple, thus more popular than thinkin and at least trying to understand the other side.

You're not ready to believe that the "great nation" of USA can knowingly support genocide. You're quite convinced with your viewpoint without even knowing any history of the conflict.

A simple Google Search brings up these documents (it's before the defeat of Pakistan and from US media)

The World: India and Pakistan: Poised for War -- Printout -- TIME

The prospect of the political balance of power moving from West Pakistan to the East was not acceptable to the generals. On March 25, Yahya outlawed the Awami League, arrested Mujib, who is now being tried for treason, and launched a ruthless repression that by one estimate has claimed a million lives

This line might strike a chord

Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal

Others are simply rounded up and shot. Commented one high U.S. official last week: "It is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland."

Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal -- Printout -- TIME

Condoning Genocide

India is particularly incensed over the present U.S. policy, and Prime Minister Indira Gandhi strongly protested to Henry Kissinger about U.S. military shipments when he visited New Delhi this month. The supply of arms by any country to Pakistan, Foreign Minister Swaran Singh charged last week, "amounts to condonation of genocide."

^^
JayATL if you're reading this, an Indian offcial pretty much says it

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Genocides in history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Pakistan_.28Bangladesh_War_of_1971.29
[/URL]

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I am suprised no one has mentioned the Turks in all this, The Ottoman empire was responsible for
Greek,Armenian,Serb,Croat,Southern Russians and Kurds genocides.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Genocides in history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Pakistan_.28Bangladesh_War_of_1971.29
[/URL]

Interesting, from the same article

Pakistan (Bangladesh War of 1971)

In 1997 R. J. Rummel published a book, available on the web, called "Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900", In Chapter 8 called "Statistics Of Pakistan's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources" he looks at the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War. Rummel wrote:


In East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) [the President of Pakistan, General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan, and his top generals] also planned to murder its Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. They also planned to indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of its Hindus and drive the rest into India. And they planned to destroy its economic base to insure that it would be subordinate to West Pakistan for at least a generation to come. This plan may be perceived as genocide.[142]

Rummel goes on to collate what he considers the most credible estimates published by others into what he calls democide. He writes that "Consolidating both ranges, I give a final estimate of Pakistan's democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000." Other authors like Anthony Mascarenhas and Donald W. Beachler have cited a figure ranging between 1 - 3 million civilians killed by the Pakistan Army;[235] Bleacher states that both Pakistan and its primary ally the USA have denied all Genocide allegations.[236]

....

....
The Guinness Book of Records lists the atrocities in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) as one of the top 5 genocides in the 20th century.[239]

 

[Damian]

You're not ready to believe that the "great nation" of USA can knowingly support genocide.

Of course, because nation did not support this, if someone in US supported this, then they were politicians or they just did not take any actions, so they were not supporting this, neither they were against it.

It is all, You want to simply blame whole nations for some people actions, not the individuals, I hope You will be happy when someone will accuse Your nation because of actions of some individual in Your country goverment.

You're quite convinced with your viewpoint without even knowing any history of the conflict.

Because You don't even try to understand what I try to tell You.

BTW calling US nation as "great nation" is a bit of insult, as I understand they don't have a right to be called great nation? This is not fair, I suppose that if someone would call this way India (Indians are great nation without any doubt) You and similiar to You would eat this person on breakfest.

You know what, You should use words in a wise way and carefully.

 

[LurkerBaba]

It is all, You want to simply blame whole nations for some people actions, not the individuals, I hope You will be happy when someone will accuse Your nation because of actions of some individual in Your country goverment.

Then the same logic can be used when the USA does apparently "good actions" . You can't praise whole nations for supposdely good actions either, you have to then attribute it to some individual in the government or the government itself

Okay, how about we change it from the US to the US government ?

PS: Read the links and the TIME articles

 

[nrj]

It is all, You want to simply blame whole nations for some people actions, not the individuals, I hope You will be happy when someone will accuse Your nation because of actions of some individual in Your country goverment.

Its the way of life, happens everyday for all nations.

Persons who are uncomfortable with statesman who represented them (due to majority support) should either try to change the history or should choose a life of stateless individual.

I say it again, there is no escape from the national picture your leader paints. Swallow the facts.

 

[Damian]

Then the same logic can be used when the USA does apparently "good actions" . You can't praise whole nations for supposdely good actions either, you have to then attribute it to some individual in the government or the government itself

Of course, this is the point, nation is neutral.

Okay, how about we change it from the US to the US government ?

Then it is fair, but then we should precise it even more, there is no one goverment, but there are several goverments in the history of state, so we should also treat any goverment separate to the next goverment.

PS: Read the links and the TIME articles

Sorry, I don't like papers and mass media general, mass media journalists are uneducated morons in 99% of cases I prefer different sources.

Its the way of life, happens everyday for all nations.

Persons who are uncomfortable with statesman who represented them (due to majority support) should either try to change the history or should choose a life of stateless individual.

I say it again, there is no escape from the national picture your leader paints. Swallow the facts.

No, we are deciding what stand and what opinions we will choose to praise, we can be wise in our lifes and be carefull with our statements (this not allways is succesfull due to many factors but still) or we can just take the easy way of angry and stupid mob that will see everywhere enemys and will insult anyone who is not in this angry mob.

This is the difference. Life is illusion, and we can go through this illusion and be wise, or sit in this illusion and take as a truth anything other will tell us, but this is philosophy.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Of course, this is the point, nation is neutral.

hen it is fair, but then we should precise it even more, there is no one goverment, but there are several goverments in the history of state, so we should also treat any goverment separate to the next goverment.

This is going into semantics, definitions of a nation state etc are beyond this thread. For all intents and purposes as indicated by the thread starter, we're treating a nation by the actions of it's leaders/government