AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by screwterrorists, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    1. Not necessarily. Royal Navy's F-35 costs the same as IAFs Rafales. Eurofighter is the most expensive fighter in production.
    2. Plethora of examples that suggest otherwise.
    3. Can't comment. Information is scarce.
    4. Depends on the adversary.
    5. Nobody is stopping you from strapping bombs on 5th gen platforms. They'll lose only their stealth properties and retain everything else.
     
  2. Flame Thrower

    Flame Thrower Regular Member

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    1. Forget others... IAF LCA Mk2 costs lot less than PAKFA, FGFA or AMCA. So the cost is less.

    2. Please give one example for me where maintenance of single engined fighter(take Gripen NG) costing more than any fifth gen fighter. LCA MK2 is to be more user and maintenance friendly than LCA mk1 and to be on par with Gripen NG. One eg. Shape memory alloys are to be used in MK2.

    2. Per my knowledge golden rule of maintenance is it roughly costs 5% (per year) of the total aircraft for maintaining it. IAF does train lot more than any AF. Some flankers are flown over 300 hrs.

    3. Well this is made on the assumption of raptor in picture. True, RAM of Raptor , F 35 and Pak Fa are different. But, today 4.5 gen plane can take 3 sorties per day. During wartime we maybe able to increase it to go close to 5 sorties for short time. There is no way Pak Fa or F 35 to do similar sortie rate even for short duration. Though RAM used on F 35 or Pak Fa to have better properties than the ram used on Raptor, all problems didn't vanish. Maintenance is expected to reduce, but don't expect any 5th gen to be as rugged as 4 or 4.5 gen fighters.

    4. In general, lower maintenance, more sorties means more chances of 4.5 gen sorties. Now when you wanna bring enemy into picture. Only Indo-China border falls into your category. Though China will have more 5th gen fighters, it doesn't force India to have only 5th gen sorties. Sure in this theatre might have more 5th gen sorties than other theatres but the overall peacetime 4.5 gen sortie rate will be more than 5th gen. Thus saving huge amounts of capital for other purposes.

    5. Let's put your logic for a bit of test. We can buy atleast 2 to 3 LCA MK2 for any 5th gen in picture. In peacetime we can have more sorties, at cheaper rate. In war time 5th gens will take care enemy AF and enemy sams. While 4.5 gen will focus on bombing energy ground forces and strategic assets freeing 5th gen. Sure missiles can always help. But Brahmos costs close to 3 mil, so they wouldn't be fired at will. In my view 50% 5th gen and 50% low cost and low maintenance 4.5 gen will reduce the costs than any 100% 5th gen a/c. Low cost for 4.5 gen sortie than 5th gen sortie.

    The whole discussion started on "future prospective of LCA, exports and possible military assistance and diplomatic advantage something we can't ignore. If you care to disagree, then we can discuss in chat"

    These are my views on "need for LCA mk2 in the 5th gen fighter world" and thus I rest my case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
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  3. FergisNahk

    FergisNahk Regular Member

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    When Bharat Karnad comes on TV, i just simply change the channel. Simply because of the fact that despite being a 'Soviet-agent', he hasn't done anything to turn around such potential relationships as Russia & India. He survives through his analysis and blogs which some people read and blabber about.
     
  4. FergisNahk

    FergisNahk Regular Member

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    Yes, expecting a day when the pics are suddenly out of a prototype for taxi tests. That day i am going to take a leave, sit at home and watch it again and again. :)
     
  5. FergisNahk

    FergisNahk Regular Member

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    Even if India is doing a poor research, i guess it would be a better designed product than J-20/J-31 given the self sufficiency and efforts we put into it along with the domestic and international industry inputs.
     
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  6. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    1. LCA MK1A costs nearly $100 million each but offers a fraction of capabilities and survivability. No orders for MK2 as it doesn't exists.
    2. Gripen NG is not in service. F-22 has higher availability rates than Rafale and Eurofighter.
    3. Speculation on your part. There is no first hand information about wartime sortie rates of 5th gen platforms, Libya and Syria don't count, atleast from an Indian perspective.
    4. Yes, lower maintainence means higher sorties but neither MK2 nor AMCA actually exists. Rafale, latest in IAF stable is legally bound to provide higher availability rates than any other platform which may include LCA.
    5. No, you cannot buy 2-3 LCA in lieu of a single 5th gen and expect them to do the same job. By that logic, you can also buy 5 Mig-21s or 50 Spitfires for the price for the price of a single LCA MK1A. So why go through the trouble?
     
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  7. binayak95

    binayak95 Regular Member

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    A lighter note, but 50 griffon engined spitfires with 24 HVAR rockets would do a great job in a low air threat environment in COIN roles. Same thing as the Super Tucanos.
    [​IMG]
    This is Super Tucano
     
  8. Flame Thrower

    Flame Thrower Regular Member

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    Provide the source that LCA mk1a costs 100 mil.

    Provide the source that Raptor has higher sortie rate than rafale or ef.

    Ef has 3 sorties per day...similar sortie rate with rafale as well.

    Rest we can discuss in personal chat.
     
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  9. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Delta wing is a bad choice for 5th generation fighter. High instantaneous maneuvering but poor continuous maneuvering. It bleeds energy badly. Delta wing is ideal for mass manufacturing in thousands due to its low number of parts, ease of manufacture due to high rigidity of design and ease of use of composites.
     
  10. gpawar

    gpawar Regular Member

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    Unless there are enough private players that can grease babus, politicians & also encourage counter propaganda articles our ability to produce India defence equipment will be hampered. I have often wondered if we can tweek policy so that babus/generals feel pinch whenever they write check to buy foreign equipment. Politicians get around stuff no matter what happens. :tongue2:

     
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  11. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    100 million dollars for mk1a? India is spending 15 billion dollars for 150 Mk1A? (includes 123+20 trainers +7 SP).

    Mk2 is just a scaled MK1A. Not an issue. AMCA is already designed. In fact, the FGFA design could have been reused as India spent 300 million USD and the design was decent.

    One can substitute 4.5 gen planes for 5th generation ones. MiG21 is not useable due to lack of radars, digital avionics and maneuverability. With all the equipment, MiG 21 will be as expensive as Tejas. Maybe, Tejas will be cheaper due to delta wing and easy assembly.

    MiG21 is not cheaper. It is just that it lacks anything needed tp fight. The difference between 4.5 and 5th generation is not high.

    Power is quality x Quantity. I am excluding fuel and range.

    Quality of F35 =10, Tejas Mk2= 7, MiG21( without equipment and digital avionics) = 1.

    So, MiG21 is not even comparable.
     
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