AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[TPFscopes]

IMPORTANT:

Guys, FGFA is Officially renamed as PMF (Perspective Multirole Fighter). Rosoboronexport already presented PMF at Paris air show. Pic already shared by me (http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...fth-generation-fighter-aircraft.8276/page-279)

 

[sukhish]

FGFA is not linked with AMCA. Modi wants AMCA development fully indigenously by 2025-27 and FOC by 2030. There is no point in FGFA anymore. FGFA is as good as canceled. AMCA id the sole focus, with development going on with critical components like EW suite, AESA, BVR missiles, Stealth Paint and sensor fusion. Testing of airframe is an easy job and India already has experience with HAL Tejas.

I don't understand what the rant is about

MODI can do shit about it, only phot-ops thats all. next they will release a good ppt presentation and all bhakts will go gungo about it.

 

[sukhish]

arrey mere bhaiya , we will make rafale here with full TOT.....
the same tech we use in amca.....

everything is already planed.....

fgfa is for russia......china or may be for pakistan in future.....

really, so they sold you the plan and u fell for it. let see if france gives the full technology at all.
screw driver technology transfer is never called full technology, I hope u understand the difference.

 

[Vijyes]

MODI can do shit about it, only phot-ops thats all. next they will release a good ppt presentation and all bhakts will go gungo about it.

Are you mentally unsound? Why are you irritating with your rants. Give me evidence and then speak. As far I can see, Modi has already got Kaveri engine technology from French. They are slated to deliver it by 2018. That was the most important part. You are going gungo for declining fortunes of the your types - Mujahids (Jihadis)

 

[Vijyes]

FGFA is twin seat PAKFA in simple terms
so technically FGFA cannot be cancelled else it will mean 100+ PAKFAs

AMCA, we dont know much about 5th gen and if we want AMCA to be 5th Gen then we need to get or learn the technology, and the fastest way perhaps is from Russia, If not then we have to learn our own and that will push your 2030 date to 2050 ...

Who needs Russian 5th generation planes in the first place? Who told you that 100+PAKFAs? Are you out of your mind? You are speaking as if India has already paid the full amount for FGFA and the only option left is to either buy FGFA or PAKFA??

Do you think 5th generation is magic? What do you mean by fastest way? 5th generation planes is all about high tech equipments like AESA, EW suite, stealth paint, BVR and sensor fusion. The individual component are easier to make but the sensor fusion and stealth is what makes it 5th generation. Stealth comes from airframe design which is designable and sensor fusion requires extensive software programming which is India's forte. India should have no problem programming sensor fusion interface.

There is no special needs about 5th generation planes that makes it impossible to make, except if you have Jihadi government.

 

[smestarz]

Perhaps you did not notice whats happening.
India needs the 5th Gen planes,,, or did you miss that chapter?
FGFA now called as PMF will be coming quite a big nos, The original nos were about 144 if I am not mistaken. Which are supposed to be PAKFA with Indian requested avionics..

5th Gen is magic for India where we are not able to fully master 4th Gen, and for Russians and Americans it is an art where they are able to design and upgrade their 5th Gen planes. It seems you should really read the entire PAKFA line before commenting.

As for AMCA, do tell me is there a prototype made and flying, or being tested? Presently the first flight is stipulated at at least 2030, that is almost one and half decade, and by that time, our noisy neighbours will be flying 5th gen planes,

I think you really need to read the PAKFA thread before replying to here

Who needs Russian 5th generation planes in the first place? Who told you that 100+PAKFAs? Are you out of your mind? You are speaking as if India has already paid the full amount for FGFA and the only option left is to either buy FGFA or PAKFA??

Do you think 5th generation is magic? What do you mean by fastest way? 5th generation planes is all about high tech equipments like AESA, EW suite, stealth paint, BVR and sensor fusion. The individual component are easier to make but the sensor fusion and stealth is what makes it 5th generation. Stealth comes from airframe design which is designable and sensor fusion requires extensive software programming which is India's forte. India should have no problem programming sensor fusion interface.

There is no special needs about 5th generation planes that makes it impossible to make, except if you have Jihadi government.

 

[Pulkit]

FGFA is not linked with AMCA. Modi wants AMCA development fully indigenously by 2025-27 and FOC by 2030. There is no point in FGFA anymore. FGFA is as good as canceled. AMCA id the sole focus, with development going on with critical components like EW suite, AESA, BVR missiles, Stealth Paint and sensor fusion. Testing of airframe is an easy job and India already has experience with HAL Tejas.

I don't understand what the rant is about

Everyone here is quite optimistic that we will be able to get FOC for AMCA by 2030 whereas I have my reservations for it.
Remeber AMCA is still on the drawing board and its gonna take a lot of time to even create the First prototype.
I am not even sure if the design or requirements have been finalized.
All the critical components for the Gen 5 aircrafts are not yet accessible or developed by India.
Experience of HAL Tejas might come in handy but remember even that it still lacking FOC and complete acceptance.
FGFA is important why ? it can be procured by 2025. We have a depleted fleet. Our enemy states have 5th Gen already in air.

We have no major components developed in terms of stealth i do not see it in air before 2030 and in force before 2040.

 

[Pulkit]

There is no special needs about 5th generation planes that makes it impossible to make, except if you have Jihadi government.

Can you state what all is required for making a 5th Gen planes before I request you to back your statement?

 

[Vijyes]

Can you state what all is required for making a 5th Gen planes before I request you to back your statement?

5th generation fighter and 4.5 generation fighter has very little difference. Only stealth and sensor fusion aspect changes. Even FA18 Hornet has sensor fusion though it is 4.5 generation.

I don't seem to understand what is the requirement of FGFA when they themselves are still developing technology and won't have them till 2020. India is working on AESA, EW suite, SAR, EOTS and are progressing well. EW suite and AESA have been developed in phase 1. More powerful AESA and better EW suite is needed and that is being developed.

Can you tell. Me what is magic in it?

Perhaps you did not notice whats happening.
India needs the 5th Gen planes,,, or did you miss that chapter?
FGFA now called as PMF will be coming quite a big nos, The original nos were about 144 if I am not mistaken. Which are supposed to be PAKFA with Indian requested avionics..

5th Gen is magic for India where we are not able to fully master 4th Gen, and for Russians and Americans it is an art where they are able to design and upgrade their 5th Gen planes. It seems you should really read the entire PAKFA line before commenting.

As for AMCA, do tell me is there a prototype made and flying, or being tested? Presently the first flight is stipulated at at least 2030, that is almost one and half decade, and by that time, our noisy neighbours will be flying 5th gen planes,

I think you really need to read the PAKFA thread before replying to here

You don't seem to understand the difference between prototype and real plane. If India can design Tejas, India can also design AMCA. First flight is just a formality. The most important part of AMCA is avionics, not the airframe. Airframe is something even 2nd world war people could make. The whole point here is about avionics. Once Avionics are developed, it is only a matter of time.

As the article itself told, Tejas Mk2 is set for 1st flight in 2021 and induction date is 2023. Similarly, AMCA first flight is 2020 and induction is the 2030. Even Russia started the FGFA plan in 2010 and design was finalised only in 2013 (designed along with India). They are stated to induct it from 2020. Similarly, with proper funding, India can also make its AMCA by 2030.

World war 2 plane manufacturing was -
USA - 3lakh
Germany - 2lakh
USSR - 1.6 lakh

Do you really think your set of 100 planes even matter?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

5th generation fighter and 4.5 generation fighter has very little difference. Only stealth and sensor fusion aspect changes. Even FA18 Hornet has sensor fusion though it is 4.5 generation.

I don't seem to understand what is the requirement of FGFA when they themselves are still developing technology and won't have them till 2020. India is working on AESA, EW suite, SAR, EOTS and are progressing well. EW suite and AESA have been developed in phase 1. More powerful AESA and better EW suite is needed and that is being developed.

Can you tell. Me what is magic in it?



You don't seem to understand the difference between prototype and real plane. If India can design Tejas, India can also design AMCA. First flight is just a formality. The most important part of AMCA is avionics, not the airframe. Airframe is something even 2nd world war people could make. The whole point here is about avionics. Once Avionics are developed, it is only a matter of time.

As the article itself told, Tejas Mk2 is set for 1st flight in 2021 and induction date is 2023. Similarly, AMCA first flight is 2020 and induction is the 2030. Even Russia started the FGFA plan in 2010 and design was finalised only in 2013 (designed along with India). They are stated to induct it from 2020. Similarly, with proper funding, India can also make its AMCA by 2030.

World war 2 plane manufacturing was -
USA - 3lakh
Germany - 2lakh
USSR - 1.6 lakh

Do you really think your set of 100 planes even matter?

Main thing is design and RAM. China calls J 20 a stealth fighter even though it has no building block of stealth. It is neither stealth, nor maneuverable, nor it has powerful engine, nor state of art radar, nor censor fusion nor weapon package. AMCA is going to be a much better and powerful aircraft for sure. We must select EJ 203 or its upgraded vatiant for AMCA and build EW and AESA in collaboration with Israel, we shall have meteor sort misile by then. We really need to push AMCA hard.

 

[bhramos]

Main thing is design and RAM. China calls J 20 a stealth fighter even though it has no building block of stealth. It is neither stealth, nor maneuverable, nor it has powerful engine, nor state of art radar, nor censor fusion nor weapon package. AMCA is going to be a much better and powerful aircraft for sure. We must select EJ 203 or its upgraded vatiant for AMCA and build EW and AESA in collaboration with Israel, we shall have meteor sort misile by then. We really need to push AMCA hard.

i can give ya all stealth details about J-20 or its Weapons with pics,

but sorry i dont want to take a side for Chini J-20...

 

[TPFscopes]

FGFA now called as PMF will be coming quite a big nos, The original nos were about 144 if I am not mistaken. Which are supposed to be PAKFA with Indian requested avionics..

Yup, 144 was old figure but you may mark my words that PMF will cross 100 but will not cross 125.
The main difference between PAK-FA and PMF is the seating capacity. IAF already demanded for 44 changes in PAK-FA, most of them will be reflected in PMF for sure.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

i can give ya all stealth details about J-20 or its Weapons with pics,

but sorry i dont want to take a side for Chini J-20...

You can give the detail but they are not something which matches the counterparts in other 5th generation planes such as F 22, F 35 and PAKFA. It is infact a dumb plane with no fifth generation stuff. Our air marshal has said that it is not stealth and china deploying it at Indo china border is not a cause of worry.

 

[Adioz]

You don't seem to understand the difference between prototype and real plane. If India can design Tejas, India can also design AMCA. First flight is just a formality. The most important part of AMCA is avionics, not the airframe. Airframe is something even 2nd world war people could make. The whole point here is about avionics. Once Avionics are developed, it is only a matter of time.

Are you for real dude? Go read up on the tolerances that a 5th generation airplane has to conform to. And you are trying to make an aircraft that has super high finish with low maintenance requirement. Then comes the part about internal weapons bay and serpentine intakes. Exhaust nozzles have to be shaped. IR signature needs to be managed. And dont even get me started on the engine. Avionics is a big part, but it is still one part of the aircraft that makes it 5th generation. Remember, we call these 5th-gen-aircraft and not 5th-gen-avionics aircraft. All LRUs have the latest in tech we can muster incorporated into it. As we are, even the requirements are not frozen by the user. This is a very difficult project. Don't think we are like Iran where we will make a mock-up to please the fan-boys on the internet. We mean to make something that actually works. AMCA is a weight-class above LCA, which itself adds complexity. If its taking time, its because the learning curve is too steep. But as always, we'll get there. We just barely started the production line of our first home-grown 4th gen aircraft. I think its more than reasonable to expect at least 15 years of gap between the introduction of two different generation of fighters in the air force, especially for developing countries like ours.

And what is all this BS about WW-II planes? Stop comparing 5th generation planes with 2nd generation ones. You are making yourself look dumb.

 

[Vijyes]

Are you for real dude? Go read up on the tolerances that a 5th generation airplane has to conform to. And you are trying to make an aircraft that has super high finish with low maintenance requirement. Then comes the part about internal weapons bay and serpentine intakes. Exhaust nozzles have to be shaped. IR signature needs to be managed. And dont even get me started on the engine. Avionics is a big part, but it is still one part of the aircraft that makes it 5th generation. Remember, we call these 5th-gen-aircraft and not 5th-gen-avionics aircraft. All LRUs have the latest in tech we can muster incorporated into it. As we are, even the requirements are not frozen by the user. This is a very difficult project. Don't think we are like Iran where we will make a mock-up to please the fan-boys on the internet. We mean to make something that actually works. AMCA is a weight-class above LCA, which itself adds complexity. If its taking time, its because the learning curve is too steep. But as always, we'll get there. We just barely started the production line of our first home-grown 4th gen aircraft. I think its more than reasonable to expect at least 15 years of gap between the introduction of two different generation of fighters in the air force, especially for developing countries like ours.

And what is all this BS about WW-II planes? Stop comparing 5th generation planes with 2nd generation ones. You are making yourself look dumb.

WW2 may have used 2nd generation planes but the scale of manufacturing should be appreciated. I am not asking for 2 lakh planes. This is an era of missiles. I am only saying that measly 100 planes is as good as shit. We need minimum 10000 aircrafts including both 4th and 5th generation planes and choppers. Anything less than that is useless. Don't even bother to buy 100 planes.
I wonder how dumb you can be. It is really unfortunate that utterly dumb people write in this forum who live in their Lala Land.
Planes are needed in thousands, period. Either PAK-FA gives all the technology transferred or it is junk. As far as I see, PAK-FA has just got its AESA radar in 2017 and some work is still remaining. It is said to be inducted by 2019-20. It also appears to be too bulky and big to be stealthy enough.

Again, the development of AMCA began in 2011 and entered full swing in 2015. Expecting 2030 deadline is not a big deal. Developing or developed country does not make the people genetically inferior or superior. Experience is needed is something I agree on but saying that experience with Tejas is worth nothing and mere designing of serpentine intakes etc take decades is over the head stupidity. Also, one should understand that the development of different items are going parallel and AMCA will be modular. So, it is a decent expectation for AMCA to be at least fully trial ready (final iteration) by 2030. The mass manufacturing can begin by between 2030-2035

 

[Adioz]

Spoiler: OMG this guy >.<

WW2 may have used 2nd generation planes but the scale of manufacturing should be appreciated. I am not asking for 2 lakh planes. This is an era of missiles. I am only saying that measly 100 planes is as good as shit. We need minimum 10000 aircrafts including both 4th and 5th generation planes and choppers. Anything less than that is useless. Don't even bother to buy 100 planes.

• That scale of manufacturing was for a World War, where entire national economies, in fact the entire global economy was geared towards war. All industries stopped making their usual stuff and contributed to the war effort on their respective sides. This was also necessary because of the much lesser footprint and technological complexity clubbed together with high attrition rates.
• We are not likely to see a World war. We are much more likely to see a limited war. National Security risks and expenditure to stave these risks off need to be balanced by using probability. There is no such thing as 100% protection. When you take insurance, you calculate risks and choose a plan according to your paying capacity. Armed Forces budget is a similar exercise when considering National spending.
• 100 planes is as good as shit? Even the capabilities of a single fighter today are beyond astonishing, especially so if you compare them to a, say, squadron of WW-II era fighters.
• 10000? Are you sure you did not add too many zeroes there? Even the USA does not have that many "4th and 5th generation planes and choppers". In fact their entire military aircraft fleet is around that number.
• Anything less than that is useless? So basically all the Air Forces in this world are garbage, because they do not even come close to that number.
• I can understand if you are pissed about us buying just 100 planes, but 100 is a big number, and if the plane delivers, the numbers could climb.

Returning to Earth:-

Planes are needed in thousands, period. Either PAK-FA gives all the technology transferred or it is junk. As far as I see, PAK-FA has just got its AESA radar in 2017 and some work is still remaining. It is said to be inducted by 2019-20. It also appears to be too bulky and big to be stealthy enough.

Go cry about that in PAK-FA thread.

Returning to AMCA:-

Again, the development of AMCA began in 2011 and entered full swing in 2015. Expecting 2030 deadline is not a big deal. Developing or developed country does not make the people genetically inferior or superior. Experience is needed is something I agree on but saying that experience with Tejas is worth nothing and mere designing of serpentine intakes etc take decades is over the head stupidity. Also, one should understand that the development of different items are going parallel and AMCA will be modular. So, it is a decent expectation for AMCA to be at least fully trial ready (final iteration) by 2030. The mass manufacturing can begin by between 2030-2035

• If we are serious about building a good 5th gen plane with a large share of indigenous components, 2030 first flight is reasonable.
• Developed countries do not have smarter people per se. They have smarter organisations, that have decades of experience. You seem to underestimate how much experience is a factor in engineering.
• Apart from past experience, their current education systems and research ecosystem is decades ahead of ours. The US has a knowledge-based economy. Even the Chinese have a larger research ecosystem than we do. This is the prerequisite for technology creation. This is our Achilles heel.
• Tejas experience is definitely not worth nothing. But it is certainly not everything. Consider for how long US and Russia have been learning from their experiences after designing their 4th generation aircraft.
• Its not only serpentine intakes. See my previous reply for a not-so-exhaustive list on what all is needed.
• AMCA will be modular, but without basic design frozen, not much can be achieved in way of design of components. Research on these is being carried out though.
  
• Mass manufacturing would begin in or after 2035. Mark my words.

 

[TPFscopes]

. We need minimum 10000 aircrafts including both 4th and 5th generation planes and choppers. Anything less than that is useless.

Are you serious?
Plz stop using too much weeds.....

 

[TPFscopes]

Returning to AMCA:-

• If we are serious about building a good 5th gen plane with a large share of indigenous components, 2030 first flight is reasonable.
• Developed countries do not have smarter people per se. They have smarter organisations, that have decades of experience. You seem to underestimate how much experience is a factor in engineering.
• Apart from past experience, their current education systems and research ecosystem is decades ahead of ours. The US has a knowledge-based economy. Even the Chinese have a larger research ecosystem than we do. This is the prerequisite for technology creation. This is our Achilles heel.
• Tejas experience is definitely not worth nothing. But it is certainly not everything. Consider for how long US and Russia have been learning from their experiences after designing their 4th generation aircraft.
• Its not only serpentine intakes. See my previous reply for a not-so-exhaustive list on what all is needed.
• AMCA will be modular, but without basic design frozen, not much can be achieved in way of design of components. Research on these is being carried out though.
  
• Mass manufacturing would begin in or after 2035. Mark my words.

We need a little shift in AMCA development policy.
The problem is that today's era is too much fast in terms of avionics technology and this continuously fluctuating the specifications of AMCA.

Right now, we need to start building our first full scale jet with all available tech and avionics (with modular design) that we already have , despite of waiting for future techs.
Improvement will never die in the whole life of AMCA so we can improve whatever we need after the flight experience.
Tejas experience is more than enough to put AMCA airborne (not in terms of stealth).
First flight will motivate our scientists as well as IAF personnels

 

[smestarz]

There is a lot of difference between 4.5 gen and 5th Gen planes, And its impossible for a 4.5th Gen to get that 0.5 to cross the threshold, It is not just steatlh and sensor fusion or rather its not so simple as you say, Only the design is superficially same, there is supermanuverability, and extreme performance. So if you do put up a pair of 4.5 gen planes against 5th Gen plane, each time the 5th Gen plane will win, This is the scenario, Thus theoretically 1 5th Gen plane is as capable as 2 4.5th Gen planes, but when the numbers of 4 or 4.5th gen are increased the odds will tend to move towards 4.5th Gen planes as then number becomes crucial,. If say it takes say 10 4.5th gen planes to take down 5th gen planes losing 9 of its nos, then still its worth to go for 5th gen plane, Most of the technology for PAKFA is ready, Item 30 engine is being tested and developed as we speak, and they expect the production to start by early 2018

India can design planes, but does IAF want planes made by HAL? Please dont compare the airframes of WW2 with present airframes. if you want I shall explain.
WW2 airframes were very simple when you compare them to present airframes
The materials then were wood or aluminum or steel, now they use special alloys to make it light
One of the biggest bomber of WW2 B-25 Super fortress carried 9 tons of bombs, A single Rafale can do that,
3 Tejas can do that, B-25 needed 4 engines to do that, Rafale needs 2 and Tejas will need 3 and it will carry more load. The crew of that plane was 10, Rafale will use just 1.
The engine making them was simple as engine was simple, the material used was not that complicated to make, But engines now are made from SCB which itself is dififucult technology to master.
During WW2, you can just take a plan and make the engine or plane, Japan did it from German plans, but now, its not just the design but also the material. BTW did WW2 planes have radars that could look at say 150 kms and track targets? Did they fly 55000 ft high?

You are actually comparing apples with photo of an orange , and its big difference, Do you know the houses that we live in, the very cost of the same, I could buy 3 WW2 fighter squadrons.

I like Tejas and want to see it in more nos, but there is still FOC waited, and then would begin the Mk2 Saga, Dont know where it will lead to. Actually we need more 4.5 gen planes, because though these planes are not as capable as 5th gen plane, they are way cheaper to use, operate and maintain, and that makes a big difference in budget.

Now, coming to the various nos of planes that you named, Just to inform you a squdron of PAKFA can see them from say 200 kms away, engage them at say 100 kms and destroy say 160 of them and these lakhs plane would not even see PAKFA or who actually is hitting them, If you had seen star trek, then for these WW2 planes that would be like facing Romulans with cloaking device..

5th generation fighter and 4.5 generation fighter has very little difference. Only stealth and sensor fusion aspect changes. Even FA18 Hornet has sensor fusion though it is 4.5 generation.

I don't seem to understand what is the requirement of FGFA when they themselves are still developing technology and won't have them till 2020. India is working on AESA, EW suite, SAR, EOTS and are progressing well. EW suite and AESA have been developed in phase 1. More powerful AESA and better EW suite is needed and that is being developed.

Can you tell. Me what is magic in it?



You don't seem to understand the difference between prototype and real plane. If India can design Tejas, India can also design AMCA. First flight is just a formality. The most important part of AMCA is avionics, not the airframe. Airframe is something even 2nd world war people could make. The whole point here is about avionics. Once Avionics are developed, it is only a matter of time.

As the article itself told, Tejas Mk2 is set for 1st flight in 2021 and induction date is 2023. Similarly, AMCA first flight is 2020 and induction is the 2030. Even Russia started the FGFA plan in 2010 and design was finalised only in 2013 (designed along with India). They are stated to induct it from 2020. Similarly, with proper funding, India can also make its AMCA by 2030.

World war 2 plane manufacturing was -
USA - 3lakh
Germany - 2lakh
USSR - 1.6 lakh

Do you really think your set of 100 planes even matter?

 

[indiandefencefan]

Spoiler: OMG this guy >.<

• That scale of manufacturing was for a World War, where entire national economies, in fact the entire global economy was geared towards war. All industries stopped making their usual stuff and contributed to the war effort on their respective sides. This was also necessary because of the much lesser footprint and technological complexity clubbed together with high attrition rates.
• We are not likely to see a World war. We are much more likely to see a limited war. National Security risks and expenditure to stave these risks off need to be balanced by using probability. There is no such thing as 100% protection. When you take insurance, you calculate risks and choose a plan according to your paying capacity. Armed Forces budget is a similar exercise when considering National spending.
• 100 planes is as good as shit? Even the capabilities of a single fighter today are beyond astonishing, especially so if you compare them to a, say, squadron of WW-II era fighters.
• 10000? Are you sure you did not add too many zeroes there? Even the USA does not have that many "4th and 5th generation planes and choppers". In fact their entire military aircraft fleet is around that number.
• Anything less than that is useless? So basically all the Air Forces in this world are garbage, because they do not even come close to that number.
• I can understand if you are pissed about us buying just 100 planes, but 100 is a big number, and if the plane delivers, the numbers could climb.

Returning to Earth:-

Go cry about that in PAK-FA thread.

Returning to AMCA:-

• If we are serious about building a good 5th gen plane with a large share of indigenous components, 2030 first flight is reasonable.
• Developed countries do not have smarter people per se. They have smarter organisations, that have decades of experience. You seem to underestimate how much experience is a factor in engineering.
• Apart from past experience, their current education systems and research ecosystem is decades ahead of ours. The US has a knowledge-based economy. Even the Chinese have a larger research ecosystem than we do. This is the prerequisite for technology creation. This is our Achilles heel.
• Tejas experience is definitely not worth nothing. But it is certainly not everything. Consider for how long US and Russia have been learning from their experiences after designing their 4th generation aircraft.
• Its not only serpentine intakes. See my previous reply for a not-so-exhaustive list on what all is needed.
• AMCA will be modular, but without basic design frozen, not much can be achieved in way of design of components. Research on these is being carried out though.
  
• Mass manufacturing would begin in or after 2035. Mark my words.

Are you for real dude? Go read up on the tolerances that a 5th generation airplane has to conform to. And you are trying to make an aircraft that has super high finish with low maintenance requirement. Then comes the part about internal weapons bay and serpentine intakes. Exhaust nozzles have to be shaped. IR signature needs to be managed. And dont even get me started on the engine. Avionics is a big part, but it is still one part of the aircraft that makes it 5th generation. Remember, we call these 5th-gen-aircraft and not 5th-gen-avionics aircraft. All LRUs have the latest in tech we can muster incorporated into it. As we are, even the requirements are not frozen by the user. This is a very difficult project. Don't think we are like Iran where we will make a mock-up to please the fan-boys on the internet. We mean to make something that actually works. AMCA is a weight-class above LCA, which itself adds complexity. If its taking time, its because the learning curve is too steep. But as always, we'll get there. We just barely started the production line of our first home-grown 4th gen aircraft. I think its more than reasonable to expect at least 15 years of gap between the introduction of two different generation of fighters in the air force, especially for developing countries like ours.

And what is all this BS about WW-II planes? Stop comparing 5th generation planes with 2nd generation ones. You are making yourself look dumb.

@Adioz appreciate the roast but you have got a point wrong which a "defense-nazi" (if that's even a thing?) like me can't ignore. :biggrin2:

You mentioned that in WW2 2nd generation fighters were used. In truth, the generation system only applies to jet fighters. Hence the 1st generation of fighters were the jet fighters which originated after WW2 such as the Mig-15 or the F-86 Sabre. The earliest 1st gen. fighter perhaps is the Me-262.

Hence any other fighter aircraft of the WW2 and WW1 eras are not in the generation system and are classified as pre-1st gen.

So for example, the Gen. system for the Mig family goes like the following:

1st Gen. - Mig-15/17
2nd Gen. - Mig-19/21
3rd Gen. - Mig-23/25
4th Gen. - Mig-29/31
4++ Gen. - Mig-35
5th Gen. - lol no money