Altay Tank - The New Beast on the block!

[jedigman]

There's a video on Armour development centre in Turkey that'll be producing the armour for Altay, little bits and pieces are shown throughout the video.
-BOR powder presses
-Reactive armour panels

 

[Damian]

Thanks, very interesting!

 

[ersakthivel]

Well, don't lisen bullshit from pak forums about Al-Khalid and T-80UD. Those tanks are not better then T-90S Bhisma.

according to the Polish military press India in 2001 bought in Russia 310 T-90S tank (120made in Russia, rest in India in Avadi).
In 2003 India bought licence in Russia for build ~1000 T-90 Bhishma . As I remember there where sourious problem whit that kontrakt:
- Russians do not transfer 2A46M gun technology
- Frencht termal cameras overheat themselfs in India climate
- There where serious problem whit Refleks-M and it's integration whit thermal cameras
- quality of the tanks builded in Awadi was so bad that UVZ must ASAP send their ingeeners and some workers to "rescuse" that contract in erly phase, in fact Indian inustry is sill not able to made most of the components themselfs whit acceptable quality. Anyway, they are vehicles fitted with "blocks" made in UWZ and Russia.
Problems whit quality where so seriuous that in 2006 there was third deal between India and Russia - 330 new T-90S shoud be deliverd from Russia.

So Indian ary shoud have prety mucht T-90 in service even now - more or less in number slighty bigger then 600 tanks. It's mucht more then only 320 T-80UD for Pakistan + less then 150 Al Khalid - when first 80 was build mostly form chineese componets.
So in numbers there is big advantage in Indian side. IMHO Indian army is trained better then Pak. And Indian officers shoud be mucht better.
If You are asking about tnaks only then I have some notes:
a) T-80UD and Al-Kchalid engine and mobility is far better then in T-90S. It's only one real advantge of pak.tanks.
b) Fire power is very simmilar in T-80UD and erly bath T-90S for India. But in newest T-90S for Indian Army FCS is slighty better then in T-80UD and Al Khalid. Both countries - Pakistan and India haven't good APFSDS ammo. Pak "Naiza" 125mm APFSDS is based on Chineese clon of the BM42 and have ~460mm RHA for 2000m. India is using 3BM42 from Russia - so 460-500mm RHA for 2000m.
c) potection - it's difficult here. T-80UD whit Kontakt-5 shoud have better protection then russian erly T-90 (Ob.188) whit filter almoust the same like in T-72B (Ob.184). But younger Russian Ob.188A1/A2 -so T-90A shoud have at least the same armour portection as T-80UD. The question is what kind of armour is put in Indian T-90S (welded turrets) armour cavity? If russian ones then Im calm, but if this cavity is put indian Kanchan armour (some users here sugesst that solution due to fact that Russian don't sold their armour technology to India) then armoru protection is unkown for me, and Im not calm. And there is another posibility -tanks bought dorect from Russia (120 from 2001 deal, and 320 from 2006 dela) will have pretty good russian "special armour" and Indian made T-90 from Avadi factory will have Kanchan armour inside.
Pak Al Kchalid seems to not be better protected then T-90S.
Well IMHO it's all - writen in hurry








ps. Damian - "WTF" here: T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And sourse of that revelation:
The situation in the domestic tank building, truth and fiction Tarasenko, S. Tupitsyn". Arms and equipment yesterday, today and tomorrow, 2006 page 10-15. November 1, 2006.
possible to downolad here:
'Техника и вооружение' 2006
:thumb:

Well you can not stop slandering the indian army tech perhaps,

The T-90 order by IA was a huge scam. The T-90s ordered by IA were bought without any exhaustive trials about the suitability of the engines and electronics in Indian desert and summer plain conditions where temp and humidity are very different from the russia.

Also the previous T-72s operated by IA did not have such high electronic components when bought and most of their eectronics update was done here as per our climatic conditions.

SO the scam of T-90 purchase was loaded on to the head of Avadi tank making factory by dubious reports in press originating from Russia.

It was only during the big mobilization called Operation parakram that these issues came to light with IA admitting their t-90s are not ready for prolonged war(whether they are ready today or not is still certain!!!)

The problems of Imported T-90s were,

1.FCS electronic malfunction in Indian summer conditions,

2.Engines delivering far lower power in engine summer conditions

3.And failures of night vision devices along with problems with imported lot of missiles for them.

4.And fainting or crew members due to intensive heat in exhaustive trials.


1 and 3 are being fixed. 2 and 4 will never be fixed.IA is till searching for AC to avoid heat build up problems , searching for Ac solution.

Since India is a free democracy after a while these faults can never be suppressed from public for ever like Pakistan.

Most probabaly pakistani t-80 UDs too will have the same laundry list of problems. As they are not known to have space age engine tech and electronics better than T-90.

But you can trust on Pakistani Army to keep on lying forever. it is just not possible in India since parliamentary standing committee reports strips t bare what are the critical problems faced by indain national security.

Coming to the kanchan armor module being put on T-90. IA did not negotiate for TOT on armor to make the T-90 look less expensive. SO kanchan was put on it and till dateIA has not expressed any dissatisfaction over it.

Arjun which was designed as per army specs face none of the problems that are listed above for T-90 and performed better than t-90 in the comparitive trials and exhaustive summer trials with no problems what so ever with high tech hydraulic supsension giving a smooth ride and much better firing accuracy on the move with it's FCS and electronics holding up in desert heat with much better crew comfort even in dessert with no AC for prolonged period.

It is not as if You don't know about these facts these were discussed many times thread bare amongst us with various sources in arjun and Arjun VS T-90 thread.

SO it is surprising that you are once again running down Indian tech for no rhyme or reason.

For your info Hindustan Aviation Limited was contracted by Sukhoi for buying 64 sets of mission computers, radar computers and weapon strore software and some other avionics for SU-30 SM fighters of russian airforce.

With russian airforce being impressed with weapon integration and avionics and mission computers and radar computers of SU-30 MKI asked Sukhoi to provide a similar config for their 64 SU-30 fighters leading to buying of the same from HAL.

 

[jedigman]

Not directly related to the thread as many posts here, but related to Turkish MBT sphere. Here's a picture of Leopard 2NG. Development has been completed, waiting for Turkish Armed Forces to order.

Perhaps another detail I should add, Aselsan has decided to modernize 15 Leopard 2A4s free of charge for the Turkish Armed Forces hoping it will lead to decision for Aselsan to be chosen to modernise Leopard 2A4 tanks.

 

[jedigman]

New Vid

 

[jedigman]

Here's a interview with Hayri Torun, Vice President of Operations and Energetic Systems Group of Roketsan, Manufacturer of Altay's Armour.

Defence Turkey: As Roketsan, you are performing various studies in ballistic protection systems in order to cover the military and civilian requirements of Turkey and you have a dedicated Ballistic Protection Center established. Could you inform us on the main activities realized in this center?

In order to establish local armour system development capability and to develop armour system for Altay main battle tank program, we signed a contract with Undersecretariat for Defence Industry (SSM) in November 2008 and the establishment of Ballistic Protection Center (BKM) was started within the scope of this contract. As of today, the establishment of the center having the latest technological capabilities and infrastructure, has been completed. Contractually, the center is a Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) and belongs to SSM. BKM is in operation now and various ballistic protection system developments are being performed. The center has 6200 m2 closed area. The center has both the composite and reactive armour design, development, test and manufacturing capability as well as indoor and outdoor test laboratories which are equipped with modern devices and equipment. We have around 40 qualified Roketsan personnel currently working at the Ballistic Protection Center. We expect to become Turkeys center of excellence in performing design, development, test and manufacturing of light and heavy armour systems.

Defence Turkey: Considering your vision of becoming Turkeys Center of Excellence in Armours, what are your studies concerning indigenous design capability and manufacturing of Ballistic Protection Technologies at the Center? Could you inform us on your investments and infrastructure studies regarding R&D?

The initial goal of the Ballistic Protection Center was to develop Altay Main Battle Tank Armour System. As you may know, we received technical support from Hyundai Rotem, a South Korean company. We have successfully reached to our initial goal for the development of armour system for Altay tank and completed its qualification recently. One of our objectives as Roketsan is to make the center to be able to develop different ballistic protection solutions and to make a center of excellence facility in armour having the required infrastructure, devices, equipment and qualified personnel. Today, we have a great team consisting around 40 personnel (half of them are engineers) at Roketsan. With the knowledge, experience and capabilities gained from the current programs, we started to develop various ballistic system solutions and new indigenous products like Forced Protection Systems. We have completed verification and qualification testing on the Force Protection Systems and started to deliveries. Thus, we are taking firm steps towards our goal of becoming a center of excellence. We may claim that Ballistic Protection Center is unique in Turkey considering its level of manufacturing, test and personnel capabilities. While assigning this task to Roketsan, the Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) aimed the Ballistic Protection Center to coordinate all ballistic protection studies in Turkey and become a center of excellence. Within this respect, we carried out a nationwide infrastructural survey available to define which studies have been conducted at our universities, research centers, and industrial institutions and made an inventory. Through establishing the necessary coordination within these capabilities and creating a synergy, we are continuing our studies in order to become a center that could design and manufacture the required ballistic protection systems.

Defence Turkey: Mr. Torun, could you elaborate on the issue you just mentioned? Do you consider that this center should take the role to bridge studies held at research centers, industrial associations and universities so that they could turn into concrete projects? What are your studies concerning this issue?

One of the most important components of the armour system is the material and we have to find the proper material. Certainly, the production of each material was not possible and feasible at the early stages. Every single material used in armour system should be available locally in order to have a 100% local system. Within the scope of the project we have the responsibility for the full acquisition of the technology, therefore we have assigned various universities in Turkey to synthesize and develop the materials. We are in close cooperation and working together with our universities. There are several material development studies currently being carried out. We believe that the outputs of these research studies will bring out materials to be used in many areas of defense industry and contribute to new product developments.

Defence Turkey : In which universities are you conducting these studies?

We are in close cooperation with Middle East Technical University, Anadolu University, Atlm University and others located either in Ankara, stanbul or other cities. These universities were determined by considering their available infrastructure and capabilities obtained from the survey results. We have signed agreement with them to conduct research projects such as material development to be used in industry and modeling of ballistic behavior of materials. We have preferred the universities having the mature infrastructure until now, but we are open to discuss the opportunities with others as well.

Defence Turkey: How about the testing capabilities in your facilities?

Testing capability is one of the major assets for Ballistic Protection Systems. You cannot verify the ballistic capability unless you perform the proper testing, therefore it is literally vital. Within the scope of the project, we established two testing facilities. We have well equipped outdoor and indoor test capabilities that was not exist in Turkey before. For example, Powder Gun Firing System has been installed in indoor ballistic test center at our facility. It contains powder and gas gun firing systems that would be used in Turkey for the first time. We conduct material characterization and scaled penetrator armour interaction tests in our laboratories. The outdoor armour testing facility is located in ereflikoçhisar Firing Range near Ankara. We have the capability to define the effects of threats on armour systems with real chemical and kinetic energy ammunitions at this outdoor testing range. In summary, we have both indoor and outdoor testing facilities in use for the testing of light and heavy armour systems. As Roketsan, we have brought new capabilities to our country along with the laboratories equipped with high technology equipment. We have the most advanced and capable outdoor and indoor armour testing area in Turkey.

Defence Turkey: Mr. Torun, will these outdoor and indoor test centers be available for use by domestic and foreign companies operating in military and civilian areas?

These test centers were primarily established for the testing of Altay Main Battle Tank Armour System. It can be utilized by the domestic companies and associations for their testing purposes with the permission of Ministry of National Defense, however it may be early to say anything about its use by foreign companies.

Defence Turkey: Roketsan has the responsibility for design and development of the the armour system of the Altay - Turkish Main Battle Tank. As you already mentioned, South Korean company Rotem provided technical support to you in this project. Could you explain the co-operation with Rotem according to the sub-contract agreement? Has there been a technology transfer as a result of this co-operation?

An agreement was signed between Roketsan and the Hyundai Rotem company based in South Korea concerning technical support with the approval of SSM, in order to speed up the development process and save time. This technical support agreement covers the technical support for design studies in Turkey. It did not cover the transfer of technology, so we cannot name it as technology transfer. South Korean experts stayed at Roketsan throughout the program and have been really supportive during the development phase at the Ballistic Protection Center. Along this phase, Rotem supported us in equipment supply, software development, armour design as well as its adoption by the Roketsan personnel. This South Korean company has fulfilled mainly its obligation with the accomplishment of the qualification of the armour system. Currently we are performing our activities mostly independent from Rotem company together with our qualified personnel.

Defence Turkey: The armour system developed by Roketsan within the scope of the Altay Project was qualified successfully after completion of the tests conducted in June and July. Could you inform us on the qualification process and how the related program schedule will proceed?

During the system development phase, at first, system verification is performed with the extensive tests and then the qualification process starts in order to prove that the customer requirements are complied with under the extreme conditions. Armour system qualification was the last step we have finalized through the development process of our armour system. We have been through a testing campaign that lasted for one and a half months starting from the beginning of June until Mid-July 2013. The armour tests have been conducted since the beginning of the development phase to check whether the results are in accordance with the expectations. In this period of 1,5 months, the Armour System of Altay Tank was tested with actual ammunition and real sized structures in order to prove that the system has sufficient protection against all threats defined by Turkish Armed Forces and the Undersecretariat for Defence Industries. In this respect, we proved to our acceptance committee that all threats are suppressed successfully with our armour systems. Ultimately the armour system has shown its capability to have effective protection against all the threats defined. Our efforts for the improvement of the system will proceed.

Defence Turkey: How will the program schedule proceed?

We are continuously working at the center and together with the research institutions for the development of new materials with better properties to replace the ones being used. On the other hand, we started to work with the potential companies for the local production of the materials procured from the outside sources. Armour System for Altay Program has been successfully qualified and ready for serial production. We wait for the serial production contract to start up where we plan to use all appropriate available local sources. We will manufacture a prototype armour system in line with the project schedule and provide this armour system to Otokar who is the main contractor for Altay Tank System Development. Following this stage there will be another test in which the Armour System shall be installed and after the completion of this test our responsibilities regarding the project shall be accomplished.

Defence Turkey: As Roketsan you are manufacturing the indigenous anti-tank ammunition while developing the armour system for Altay Tank. Which advantages do you have being expert on those two areas?

As anti-tank missiles development company, you know the threat clearly, and you should find out how to defeat this threat. The threat is anti-tank warhead and armour is your defeating tool. We have an increasing capability in both areas, therefore the level of quality for both systems increases in parallel to each other. This is similar to software and anti-virus software development, I believe that if you are capable to develop armour systems, you may be able to develop the best solution in determining the type of the warhead or the missile to defeat this armour. This is really a good opportunity for Roketsan, we are developing anti-tank missiles and on the other hand we have the capability for testing the missiles against the armour systems in order to determine on which armour system they are more effective. Thus, in the future we may have to develop more capable armour systems against those anti-tank ammunitions.

In armour design, knowledge about the threat is the most critical information besides from the material information. The expertise we have built in armour-piercing ammunition has been really useful and important in perceiving the interaction between each material in the armour system and the threats. This is again exactly the same point I mentioned above, The case that the best antivirus software could be developed by the experts who know well about the viruses. Roketsan is the only company in the world that develops both anti-tank missiles and armour systems for the tanks. This helps us to follow the latest technological developments in both side and to develop them further.

Defence Turkey

 

[jedigman]

I believe it's far too early for Otokar to be producing a brochure of Pre-Prototype hulls, but nonetheless here's a brochure http://www.otokar.com.tr/db/en/products/b/ALTAY_eng.pdf also one for Tulpar IFV http://www.otokar.com.tr/db/en/products/b/TULPAR_eng.pdf

 

[Damian]

Nice, I must say, OTOKAR designs are very elegant. I like them.

 

[jedigman]

Little update on Altay & Tulpar, slightly old news but worth posting.

Tulpar New Generation Tracked Armoured Vehicle

With its significant experience in armoured vehicles, Otokar expanded its product range of wheeled vehicles, comprising 4x4 to 8x8 drive and 4 to 28 tons, with tracked vehicles.
Designed to be of equivalent or superior characteristics and features with new generation armoured infantry fighting vehicles in similar vehicle programs conducted in NATO countries, Tulpar is entirely Otokar's own development. Named after the mythical winged- horse that guards the warriors in Turkish Myhology and in the Epic of Manas, Tulpar meets the 21st century requirements with its design that allows it to operate alongside modern main battle tanks. Tulpar is a next generation armoured infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV) and armoured personnel carrier (APC) that can meet the land defence needs of future for the armed forces in countries that want to acquire modern platforms and technologies.
Tulpar with a varying payload of 30 - 45 tonnes has a high mobility and superior protection with high firing power. Tulpar can carry an infantry squad. The vehicle provides low operating costs and various types of vehicles due to its modular design. Regarding Tulpar Otokar General Manager Mr. Serdar Görgüç said: "In order to serve our users in different segments of armoured vehicles we designed Tulpar tracked armoured vehicle. I believe new generation tracked armoured vehicle Tulpar will meet the upcoming expectations of modern armed forces."


Altay Main Battle Tank Project
Otokar is also the prime contractor of Altay Turkish main battle tank. Altay project comprises two separate phases: 'design, prototype and qualification process and 'series production'. Otokar was selected as the prime contractor for the first phase, and the project was launched officially in January 2009. Phase 1 (Design, Prototype Production and Qualification) was to be completed in 78.5 months, and was divided into three sub-phases: Conceptual Design, during which Otokar assessed the current threats and combat requirements and the expectations and needs of the Turkish Armed Forces to develop an overall concept for Altay. Otokar successfully finalised the second phase; 'Detailed Design Phase' in 2013, and launched the 'Prototype Development and Qualification' phase. Otokar is expected to produce four prototypes as part of the project. The first two pre-prototypes (MTR and FTR) were put through their paces at the end of 2012. Stage III-Prototype Development and Qualification Stage has started in June 2013. As of today, further testing and optimization of firing performance activities are ongoing on MTR and FTR and the manufacturing of two prototype vehicles are expected to be completed by mid of 2014. Phase 1, under the prime contractorship of Otokar, is scheduled for completion in 2015, when Altay will be ready for series production, which will be launched under a separate contract.

...........................

Altay MTR and FTR are continuing stress tests of components (having clocked 10s of thousands of kilometers between them) that will be used on 2014 prototypes. 2 prototypes are to be built in 2014, 1 has been built but we are yet to see any pictures to determine design changes and see a closer to production turret.
Project is almost complete, follow on projects are to be scheduled regarding Indigenous engine, 120mm guided shell and Active protection system.

Tulpar has been completed, looking for customers. Which will be a while in case of Turkey, since Turkey has thousands of relatively up to date ACV IFV.

 

[jedigman]

The wear and tear thousands of miles on Altay Pre-prototypes, also notice hydropneumatic suspension borrowed from Korean K2 MBT as per agreement with assistance to develop Altay.

 

[Damian]

Nicely done!

Are there any photos of real prototypes? AFAIK from your informations there are two pre prototypes, there should be one completed prototype and second should be currently manufactured right?

 

[jedigman]

No photos of prototypes yet, expect to see some pop-up sometime this year. And yes, that is correct.

 

[jedigman]

This image has popped of Altay MBT, image is of poor quality so can't really determine what the armour looks like.

Same person has also added a comparison image

 

[hitesh]

The wear and tear thousands of miles on Altay Pre-prototypes, also notice hydropneumatic suspension borrowed from Korean K2 MBT as per agreement with assistance to develop Altay.

India too use hi class hydropneumatic suspension in its tank

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Photo caption:

The wear and tear [of] thousands of miles on Altay Pre-prototypes, also notice hydropneumatic suspension borrowed from Korean K2 MBT as per agreement with assistance to develop Altay.

This is just a quibble, but our M60A3s were serviced according to engine hours elapsed. They didn't have odometers.

 

[jedigman]

Close to production variant of Altay, Prototype Test Vehicle.