Al Jazeera Documentary on Balochistan : Pakistan's other war

[Virendra]

The point at which they are completely absorbed / integrated into the culture of the land.

 

[Daredevil]

Many of the settlers being targeted, massacred and forced to leave have been living in Balochistan for generations, before Pakistan became independent.

At what point exactly do people become 'entitled' to the lands they have been living on and cease to be called 'settlers'?

They may be living for generations there (although its debatable) but them being perceived as collaborators of Pakistani establishment in suppressing Balochis has led to expulsion or targeting of the punjabis much like what Mukthibahini did with Rajakars back then during Bangaldeshis genocide in 1971. One would hope that Pakistani establishment would have learnt the lessons but it doesn't seem to be going by the latest reports coming out of Balochistan.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

They may be living for generations there (although its debatable) but them being perceived as collaborators of Pakistani establishment in suppressing Balochis has led to expulsion or targeting of the punjabis much like what Mukthibahini did with Rajakars back then during Bangaldeshis genocide in 1971....

The actions of the Muktibahini, regardless of their 'perceptions', were atrocities and genocide, much as the actions of the terrorist/insurgent groups in Balochistan are.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

The point at which they are completely absorbed / integrated into the culture of the land.

Why should they be completely absorbed/integrated?

Please keep in mind that under the 'human migration theory' pretty much all humans are 'settlers/migrants'.

Cultural absorption, integration, amalgamation is a fluid process and, as far as I can tell, is never ending, especially in this age of easy access to information from across the world.

 

[Daredevil]

The actions of the Muktibahini, regardless of their 'perceptions', were atrocities and genocide, much as the actions of the terrorist/insurgent groups in Balochistan are.

Even recently, a book by a pakistani general alludes to genocide in BD. But again, whatever floats your boat. Denial is the best refuge of Pakistan then and even now.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

Even recently, a book by a pakistani general alludes to genocide in BD. But again, whatever floats your boat. Denial is the best refuge of Pakistan then and even now.

I made no comment on the actions of the Pakistani Army, I commented on the actions of the MuktiBahini and BLA/BRA terrorists/insurgents, in targeting and massacring people from specific ethnic groups in an attempt to essentially wipe out their presence from a particular region - that constitutes genocide.

 

[Zarvin]

Please don't sir me.

You are being disingenuous if you believe that India is solely responsible for the Baloch freedom struggle. It is an indigenous movement against the Pakistani state. Even Pakistani commentators have begun to accept it.

I wish India did help the Baloch people, and provided us a way so that Indians can volunteer their services and/or money for the Baloch cause. I have also had a privilege of interacting with and befriending Baloch people including a Sardar's son, their hate for Pakistan is unbelievable.

You should talk to the Baloch victims of Pakistani oppression and those Punjabi settlers kicked out of Balochistan.

OK, I will refer to you as Singh from now on. I hope your happy.

 

[Ray]

The actions of the Muktibahini, regardless of their 'perceptions', were atrocities and genocide, much as the actions of the terrorist/insurgent groups in Balochistan are.

Let us look at it very rationally and without emotions.

If collaborators join the Pakistan Army to commit genocide, would the local indigenous sit back and say just go ahead and wipe us out.

Who would you attack?

Obviously, you cannot attack an Army, so you take it out on collaborators.

Further, one would understand the Army is doing its job of implementing the Pak Punjabi diktat, but why the collaborators who have enjoyed the salt of the soil?

Where would the anger be more?

Against the Army or the collaborators?

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

Let us look at it very rationally and without emotions.

If collaborators join the Pakistan Army to commit genocide, would the local indigenous sit back and say just go ahead and wipe us out.

Who would you attack?

Obviously, you cannot attack an Army, so you take it out on collaborators.

Further, one would understand the Army is doing its job of implementing the Pak Punjabi diktat, but why the collaborators who have enjoyed the salt of the soil?

Where would the anger be more?

Against the Army or the collaborators?

What is the definition of 'collaborators' - any Punjabi in Baluchistan and non-Bengali in, at the time, East Pakistan?

An inability to effectively fight a military force does not justify massacring non-combatants, or are you also going to legitimize Taliban attacks on civilians in the absence of an ability to target NATO?

BLA/BRA and Mukti Bahini actions therefore should therefore be considered 'atrocities and genocide'.

 

[Ray]

What is the definition of 'collaborators' - any Punjabi in Baluchistan and non-Bengali in, at the time, East Pakistan?

An inability to effectively fight a military force does not justify massacring non-combatants, or are you also going to legitimize Taliban attacks on civilians in the absence of an ability to target NATO?

BLA/BRA and Mukti Bahini actions therefore should therefore be considered 'atrocities and genocide'.

No. West Pakistanis are not collaborators. They are the invaders and rapist par excellence!

It is the Bihari Muslims who have lived off the soil who collaborate with those who think Muslim Bengalis are vermin i.e the West Pakistani, and more importantly the Pak Punjabis who think they are the Gods gift to Pakistan and all others are mere scums!

It is of course a different story that the Bengalis of Bangladesh kicked the West Pakistans in their bottom and sent them packing!

I would like to add that it is horrid for combatants to kill non combatants! Pakistani soldiers did that to the unarmed Bengalis. And you expected them to sit and be killed and raped and say Thank You, Sir?

Taliban is a product of Pakistan and are the scum in any case!

It is only the ISI who loves them!

Be frank, how many of non Punjabis of Pakistan love these Punjabis who think the Allah's Chosen for Pakistan?

And why are others, and more so, the Mujahirs, treated as lepers?

Why are Indian born who went to Pakistan still called Mujahirs?

You all are a confused lot.

You are still searching your identity.

You will never find it since historically you are at war with each other of your Faith, forget about being at war with anyone else.

See your bombings in your cities and see how polarised you are over who is a Sunni and who is a Shia and who is a Ahmediya kufr!

Pakistan is so shameless that they have not even rehabilitated and taken these Bihari Muslim to Pakistan as promised, The people who fought for your Islamic ideals! Proving Islam is not your raison d'etre but mere POWER and nothing else!

Have some shame!

 

[Zebra]

I am not sure if some one posted it before on DFI.....but just watch it again @ 12:54, the Balochistan part of it.


Published on May 31, 2012 by djamaluddin

 

[Zarvin]

@Casper

Not everyone in Balochistan is going around killing non-Baloch and Shia. It is a fringe minority. The vast majority want freedom from corrupt politicians and Baloch Sardar.

This is the Jalsa if your interested, bang in the middle of the Capital Quetta.

 

[Oracle]

Rhetorics???

What are we doing to get POK/Askai chin back for last 65 years??

Even Pakistan is more sincere in its efforts to get back Kashmir. Atleast they are trying no matter how unethical there ways are.

And O you dont need to be over enthusiast to prove anything.

What rhetoric? And what is over enthusiastic? You might be happy with the status quo, I am not. Because that land is ours, and the day there is political will we would get it back.

Why should we even think of giving our land to Pakistan even though they have illegally occupied it? The Government not doing anything does not mean we drop our legal right of claim. The same issue of terrorism affects North East too, should the GoI gift NE to the Chinese?

Anyway, this thread is about Baluchistan, so maybe we should take this through PM or in the appropriate thread.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

No. West Pakistanis are not collaborators. They are the invaders and rapist par excellence!

It is the Bihari Muslims who have lived off the soil who collaborate with those who think Muslim Bengalis are vermin i.e the West Pakistani, and more importantly the Pak Punjabis who think they are the Gods gift to Pakistan and all others are mere scums!

It is of course a different story that the Bengalis of Bangladesh kicked the West Pakistans in their bottom and sent them packing!

I would like to add that it is horrid for combatants to kill non combatants! Pakistani soldiers did that to the unarmed Bengalis. And you expected them to sit and be killed and raped and say Thank You, Sir?

If, as you claim, it is 'horrid for combatants to kill non combatants' then you answered your own question at the end - the attacks on non-combatants (West Pakistanis and Biharis) by the Mukti Bahini and others were atrocities and genocide.

Taliban is a product of Pakistan and are the scum in any case!

It is only the ISI who loves them!

Whatever your views of the Taliban, my point is merely that your argument of 'the BLA, BRA and Bengali separatists attacking non-combatants because of their inability to take on the military', applies to Taliban attacks on non-combatants as well.

Be frank, how many of non Punjabis of Pakistan love these Punjabis who think the Allah's Chosen for Pakistan?

And why are others, and more so, the Mujahirs, treated as lepers?

Why are Indian born who went to Pakistan still called Mujahirs?

You all are a confused lot.

You are still searching your identity.

You will never find it since historically you are at war with each other of your Faith, forget about being at war with anyone else.

See your bombings in your cities and see how polarised you are over who is a Sunni and who is a Shia and who is a Ahmediya kufr!

Pakistan is so shameless that they have not even rehabilitated and taken these Bihari Muslim to Pakistan as promised, The people who fought for your Islamic ideals! Proving Islam is not your raison d'etre but mere POWER and nothing else!

Have some shame!

What does any of the above have to do with the point under discussion, that BLA/BRA/Bengali separatist attacks and massacres of non-combatants amount to atrocities and genocide?

 

[SADAKHUSH]

From where did this 98% figure came up from ?

They have a delusional number crunching leaders who have lost half of their nation in 1971 and rest of it going to go soon their own way. One of the PDF member is all about twisting the facts to suit his arguments and nothing else. I will let them stay on that course and let them get stewed in their own soup of misery. Balochistan is going to go her way and so will POK will be taken back by force because the days of negotiation are over.

 

[Prometheus]

I feel sorry for the Baluch people. If it werent for the Paki nukes, the Baluch would have already been liberated !. Another 10 years and India's missile defense sheild will be in place and India could start a Baluchistan Liberation War!
but its more then likely that by the next 10 years, pak nation itself will cease to exist ....infact it would have already fractured if it wouldnt have been for the US, China and Saudi funding . The evil pakis must pay for every Baluch life lost!

 

[Tolaha]

A lot of false information in that documentary. The situation in Balochistan is bad but still 98% of the people want to stay with Pakistan, on the other hand, 98% Kashmiris don't want to stay with India.

I just got one more piece of stats from the same place where you got yours. 100% of Pakistanis dont want to stay in Pakistan, so all Kashmiris want to move into Pakistan and rename the province as N.W.India!

So there should be no problems in conducting a referendum/plebiscite under neutral authorities then, correct?

huh... are you saying your country has the capacity to convince the Pakistanis settled in POK to go back where they've come from?

who want those terrorists to be part of India, we are doing very well without them ...
Mirpuris ...

although i wont mind if GB becomes part of India ..

Mirpuris are just Pakistani Punjabis with a different name, they have the same cultural genes of the Pakjabis that makes them renowned world over. So we would have to drive them out to clear way for Kashmiris to be settled in POK.

Which means that India has unofficially given up claims on Pakistan administered parts of J&K ...

Didn't you just reiterate my point, that India has unofficially given up claims on the parts of J&K administered by Pakistan? And if so, how are my 'powers of understanding extremely weak'?

Again, you are supporting my argument, that India has unofficially given up all claims to Pakistan administered J&K.

I guess it's the effect of having dictators run your country for most of your lifetime. But in other countries, including India, the views of a forum member does not directly become the official policy of the Nation.

Working on it, but whether or not Pakistan is a democratic country has nothing to do with the referendum/plebiscite in j&K - if anything, the lack of democracy might play in favor of India, turning Kashmiris away from Pakista.

You need to distinguish between 'the type of government wanted by people' and 'the choice to become a country/part of a country where the type of government can be debated'.

The citizen of every country deserves the government they have, especially when apathy towards the political process runs deep, but that cannot be conflated with the desire to have a nation where people can suffer/enjoy the government they deserve.

Where have I argued any of the above? Or is this how your claims of 'winning arguments against me on my own forum' come about, by making up ridiculous opinions, attributing them to me, and then claiming that you somehow proved an argument I had never made wrong?

Nations and people have to be able to multitask - addressing a host of domestic issues does not mean forgetting about others.

Your country is extremely selective when it comes to addressing "people's opinion". Hypocrisy does not win arguments,neither in forum debates nor in international affairs.


I think it was in Zarvin's pasted post, a point was raised that there was no attempt to change the demography of Balochistan. While I'm not personally aware of what has happened in Balochistan, I'm quite well aware of Pakistani actions in PoK, from various accounts - Indian media, Pakistani media, Indian military sources, JKLF ex-militants, JKLF militants - the kind of demographics alterations forced upon PoKs. For the sole reason that Pakjabis didnt trust the occupants of Gilgit and Baltistan. When Pakjabis have done something like this in an area, where as per International law, they were not supposed to do anything of that sort, what stops them from repeating this in Balochistan?

 

[Ray]

Since the thread has veered off to the Kashmir issue, which is OT, it requires a clarification lest a wrong view is taken.

There is not one but 14 UN resolutions on Kashmir. The first was on 17 January, 1948 and the latest was on 21 December, 1971. The resolutions were updated on the basis of developments on the ground. But because the original aggression by Pakistan in Kashmir was never in dispute the core provisions of the original UN resolution survived intact. What were these provisions?

Briefly, before any plebiscite could be held, all Pakistani troops and personnel had to vacate the entire territory of Jammu and Kashmir. The state had to revert to its original status before hostilities started. Indian troops were to operate in the entire state until full normalcy was restored and law and order established, and only then could a free and fair plebiscite be held under the aegis of the UN Commission appointed for the purpose. The plebiscite was to allow the people of the state to either join India or Pakistan. In other words according to the plebiscite terms the entire undivided J&K could join either India or Pakistan , with no third option of independence for any part or the whole of the state made available.

Pakistan never accepted these preconditions for holding the plebiscite. India instead of insisting that the plebiscite be held according to the terms of the UN resolution continued to oppose plebiscite. In August 2006

To meet the terms of the plebiscite resolution what would be required? First, Pakistan troops would have to vacate the whole of POK. Secondly, Indian troops would occupy the entire undivided state of J&K. These troops would remain until peace is fully established. Thirdly, in order to revert to the original status before hostilities in 1948 China would have to vacate all territory illegally cede to it by Pakistan . Fourthly, after fulfilling all these conditions Indian troops would withdraw except for a sufficient token force to maintain law and order. Finally, the plebiscite held under these conditions would preclude independence for any part or for the whole of Kashmir .

also interesting is:

Would any Kashmir separatist leader surrender all claims of independence for the Valley? More importantly, could Pakistan by any stretch of imagination accept even one of these preconditions? Could China conceivably withdraw from all Kashmir territory illegally ceded to it by Pakistan ? To all these questions the answer can only be a resounding no! Why, then, is the Indian government shying away from the UN resolution on plebiscite instead of using it as a weapon to corner Pakistan?.

Excerpt from Rajinder Puri's article Krishna continues Kashmir confusion!

 

[Ray]

Q&A: 'Baloch Groups to Unite Against Pakistan'

Baloch fighters at a location in Pakistan. Credit: Karlos Zurutuza/IPS.


SAN SEBASTIAN, Spain, Oct 26 2012 (IPS) - Fighters in the Balochistan province of Pakistan will soon set up a common front to take on the Pakistani military in their fight for Baloch independence, a senior commander of the Balochistan Liberation Front tells IPS in an interview.

"We are in full coordination with all Baloch resistance movements and we are soon to form a united command," Dr. Allah Nazar, a doctor turned guerrilla fighter tells IPS in the interview on the phone earlier this month.

Divided by the borders of Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan, Baloch have their own language, and live across a land the size of France they call "Balochistan." The rugged terrain under their feet boasts enormous reserves of gas, gold and copper, and untapped oil and uranium. But this is also the most underdeveloped region across these countries.

Baloch insurgents in Pakistan are fragmented into several groups, mainly the Baloch Liberation Army, the Baloch Republican Army, the Baloch Liberation Front and the Lashkar-e-Balochistan (Balochistan's army). Several analysts say this fragmentation reflects the tribal element among the Baloch. But the groups are all secular, and share a common agenda in seeking independence for Balochistan.

This IPS reporter interviewed Dr Nazar on the phone after extended visits earlier to the three parts of the region (Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan) in 2009 and 2010. Excerpts from the interview:

How would you describe the group you lead?

In the Baloch Liberation Front there are people from all walks of life, from peasants to doctors. There are more than 6,000 fighters in our ranks and the number is growing by the day. The BLF is waging a guerrilla war inside East Balochistan which is under Pakistani control.

Do you coordinate with Jundullah ("Army of God") – the Baloch insurgent movement in neighbouring Iran?

We know the people fighting in Jundullah are also Baloch but we have no relation with them. Ours is a pure nationalist war, miles away from Jundullah´s religious extremism.

Islamabad has always claimed that the Baloch resistance is been backed by India.

That´s just fake propaganda from Pakistani state media in order to show the world that the Baloch are proxies. India is not supporting us.

Pakistan controlled Balochistan has a provincial government. Why have you taken up an armed struggle and not parliamentary politics?

We had been declared an independent state from Pakistan in August 1947, even before Pakistan came into existence. Seven months later, Pakistan occupied our land by force. From the first day the Baloch have not accepted the occupation of Pakistan, so our struggle is a continuation of the struggle of our forefathers. Parliament makes laws brutally against Baloch national identity, our culture and language. And the Supreme Court is legitimising the brutality of the State.

Some Baloch leaders speak of self-determination and not independence.

Leaders such as Akhtar Mengal – former chief minister of the province and leader of the Mengal clan and head of the Balochistan National Party are calling for "national self-determination", but that's still a vague term. Self-determination has a broad meaning and it can imply that we remain inside the state. But we have our own history, our own language, our own national identity and so we want our freedom.

What do you think of the Freedom Charter, a road map for Balochistan independence supported by leaders like Hyrbyair Marri, the London-based tribal and political leader?

The Freedom Charter is a very good step as taken by Hyrbyair Marri. All Baloch fighting for freedom should suport the Freedom Charter.

Islamabad claims that projects such as Gwadar's deep water harbour would boost the economy of Balochistan.

The Gwadar project has been planned in the interest of Punjabi and colonial powers and not for the welfare of Baloch people. It´s meant to bring demographic change in Balochistan; they want to bring in the Muhajirs –immigrants – and other people into Balochistan in order to unbalance demography. Gwadar is a death warrant for Baloch people.

The Baloch say the government in Islamabad is trying to Talibanise Balochistan in order to quell the Baloch nationalist movement.

That's true. Balochs are basically secular, by their culture, by their tradition, by their historical background, so the Pakistani regime is trying to Talibanise the Baloch society. Just where I am right now, the ISI – the Pakistani secret service – has set up two religious militant groups against the Baloch national struggle: one is Ansar-al-Islam and the other is Tahafuz-e-Hadoodullah (Protectors of God's Rule).

They have formed these groups in the name of Islam but their real aim is to crush the Baloch freedom movement. Pakistan is the cradle of the Taliban and the breeding ground of the Taliban. Pakistan is nourishing and funneling the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorists into Afghanistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Yemen"¦ Pakistan is an irresponsible state that is putting the civilised world in danger. A free Baloch state would therefore be in the interest of the whole civilised world.

Washington is reconsidering a pullout from Afghanistan due for 2014. How will this affect the Af-Pak region?

If America and NATO pull out from Afghanistan, that will lead to turbulence and destabilisation. A weak Afghanistan will not only destabilise the region but it will be harmful for the whole civilised world.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/10/qa-baloch-groups-to-unite-against-pakistan/

 

[gotti]

Anyone is free to quote me and open the pandora's box.

Here are some unequivocal claims I will be making and they are ready for refutation:

Not a single person here knows the Baluch people or about their rights, history, issues or struggle.

No one here probably ever had an interest in understanding them, spent time with them or got to understand them.

Everything India does, is for the sake of promoting a perceived geopolitical interest as the mods on this site have made clear to me and there are absolutely no values involved

Not even the ones where you actually pretend to be invading a country for apparent human rights abuses like in Bangladesh (disputed by Bengali Hindu, Sarmila Bose in her book Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War)

Interestingly enough, not a single person would've known Bengali Pakistanis, spent time with them, got to know them, et al.

Mengal has categorically said that they will not be joining any sort of "insurgency" and the best interests of the people of Baluchistan lie in being with Pakistan than being with a foreign power.

No one even bothered to find out about Brahui or the fact that it was a Dravidian language (I know they banned YouTube in Pakistan, but did they ban Wikipedia in India?)

And, I am sure no one here knows their songs, cultures, dances or attended any of their weddings - yet, long live Baluchistan

No wonder this site is so low in it's traffic, had it been run by those with competence, it would've been higher and worthy of any attention, by anyone. I am only here to troll in response to the Indian trolls on every single one of our sites, invading our privacy and good time surfing the net for Pakistani news and current affairs.

The Pakistani whose comment I liked is most probably a Punjabi who has no clue about anything Pakistani outside of Punjab and is out to defend the Baluchistan cause on the internet, on a site, run by those who are telling Tamils, in their face, that we supported the murder of your people and you have no right to call yourself Tamil (reminds me of the bigotry associated with being a hyphenated-American or even worse, the Native Americans being "Americanized" in missionary schools - Americans got over it - the Indians, on the other hand, not any time soon, it seems).

Apparently, the Baluch Sarmachars are getting their ideological fodder from a comedy site online and they have nothing better to do than surf the internet to find a site (they can't possibly find given its low stature) whilst roaming around in the mountains of Ziarat.

Yet, the Punjabi friend is worried and out to fight the good fight

Had he known about the Pashtun saying they won't let it happen and the fears of the Sardars of being sucked in by Iran into it's own Sistan va Baluchestan (and Iran's fear of losing it's own territory), this person would've instead trolled on another Indian thread, like I am here to do (in reaction of Indian trolls on our sites). :cool2:

If he had the slightest bit of clue about Baluchestan's history, being a Pakistani, he would've known about the Shah asking Bhutto to remove Bizenjo's government, out of fear for nationalism propping up in Iran.

Only, if our friend knew about Rigi. Only if he was informed through the media about the Pakistanis and Iranis working together to suppress the Baluch kind of like Indians and Sinhalese suppressing the Tamils (Oh the irony!), he would've instead watched an Imran Khan/Musharraf interview, as his time would've been better served.

This is not a two-nation theory like when Bangladesh was divided and it didn't unite with West Bengal (because the West Bengalis hate Bengali Muslims - thus, the two nation theory - had there been no such theory, the Bengalis would've united).

The West Bengalis shoot them on sight at their borders and those who do cross, they don't want them in India (showcased by how they treat their immigrants).

If this is what they do when they see them on their borders, no one even wants to imagine what they would have done had they "united" with them (even though, they would never have given the two-nation theory)

BTW, a trailer of Hitler Wajid killing thousands of innocent and moderate human beings should give you an idea of what the actual string-pullers would have done (kill more innocent and moderate human beings).

Conversely, if Baluchistan truly did separate in some metaphysical world where millions of Pashtun and thousands of Hazara were removed from the face of this Earth, by some very precise missile technology (given that they are all integrated), Iran would be at risk.

I would like to know how many Pashtun want to live in this independent state of Baluchistan?

Alas! only if these gullible Indians knew. But they do know! Aren't they doing the same with the Sinhalese vis-a-vis the Tamils?

You know, even worse is the case when you see the Indians thinking they have some moral high ground, even after all separatist leaders joined one party, each, in Pakistan, and their most extreme of leaders were allowed on television to make their case (they said we'll stay if you give us an equal share in the army - thousands of them got recruited, end of story).

Anywhoo, I am not going to speak in too much detail about the Baluch because it seems as though the crowd is just trying to liberate a country online using a below-par public forum and below-average imagination

What games do these kids play? India will liberate Baluchistan I can't stop laughing at the blissful ignorance of these people.

This topic isn't worthy of a serious conversation on the subject

I am disappointed at everyone (including the Pakistani given that he is wasting time defending against something that is already wrapped up and put back in the shelf of idiotic ideas from which it originated)

Till then, enjoy Baluchi rap song from Lyari.



BTW, mod, you wanted to ban me for maa behen, well, if you're so sincere to the Baluch cause, ban me for this only if you can tell me what he's saying (assumptions about what he's saying cannot be included in the maa behen that could get me banned :taunt1