Akash Surface-to-air Missile

Yumdoot

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See,, we developed this missile 8 years ago and started development 3 decades ago. We do not need this shitty range of 27 KM. By this time, a new faster and more accurate and longer range version should have came in. It has not. I remember the news of 2010 or 11 when it was said that mk2 is coming in next 2 years. It has not came in. Imagine if we would have an Akash faster, more accurate and longer range today, we could have deterred enemies better.

What kind of a SAM would you like to face off with if you were a pilot?

One that is quick, carries thrust giving multiple passes and demands very short reaction time from the evading pilot and the off board sensors put out so much power that you cannot ever jam them.

OR

One that travels very long ranges with a Mach cone shining on the IRST at 500 degree celsius for a very long time in a predictable path facing you and just when it fires up its second pulse you are able to simply change directions and break lock from the small field of regard (tracking mode) or range, that the onboard sensors can muster.

There is no match, Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power. That is way more than anything that anybody can muster flying in a fighter plane. So you cannot jam a superior burn through performance.

Theoretically you could launch an anti radiation missile at the Akash radar but only if you have time for it. Most likely the Akash Group Control Centre has 2/3 BLRs at its disposal over and above the 3D CAR with all data fused and re-transmitted to the Akash Batteries which could be overlapping killing fields or separated by 30 km. You will not even know which BLR switched on for how much time and which of these multiple radars will be providing the inputs for guiding the incoming Akash.

You could dive to a lower altitude but the BLR sees you at 30 meters altitude at 20 km range again data fused at GCC and passed on the the Battery Level Command Centre, which is actually the ones guiding the Akash SAM. Not the radars. And BLRs would be coming on at the very last few moments. Most times the 3D CAR based data fused guidance provided by GCC and uplinked to the Akash by the BCC will be working.

You cannot use DIRCM or DFRM on Akash because Akash is command guided.

Now in future the active seeker will take away even the below 30 meter dive for you and add even more uncertainty to the evading pilot. He will be forced to decide if he should be evading the incoming SAM or track and position himself for firing his ARM.

Quick kills are better. Longer ranges are predictable.

Here's the radar horizon infographic for you. So even if you are at 25 ft and the radar at say 10 ft. the range is still 10 nautical miles or 18 km. Can you escape this level of danger to you. Would launch your ARM or would you try to evade.
 
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HariPrasad-1

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What kind of a SAM would you like to face off with if you were a pilot?

One that is quick, carries thrust giving multiple passes and demands very short reaction time from the evading pilot and the off board sensors put out so much power that you cannot ever jam them.

OR

One that travels very long ranges with a Mach cone shining on the IRST at 500 degree celsius for a very long time in a predictable path facing you and just when it fires up its second pulse you are able to simply change directions and break lock from the small field of regard that the onboard sensors can muster.

There is no match, Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power. That is way more than anything that anybody can muster flying in a fighter plane. So you cannot jam a superior burn through performance.

Theoretically you could launch an anti radiation missile at the Akash radar but only if you have time for it. Most likely the Akash Group Control Centre has 2/3 BLRs at its disposal over and above the 3D CAR with all data fused and re-transmitted to the Akash Batteries which could be overlapping killing fields or separated by 30 km. You will not even know which BLR switched on for how much time and which of these multiple radars will be guiding the incoming Akash.

You could dive to a lower altitude but the BLR sees you at 30 meters altitude at 20 km range again data fused at GCC and passed on the the Battery Level Command Centre, which is actually the ones guiding the Akash SAM. Not the radars.

You cannot use DFRM on Akash because Akash is command guided.

Now in future the active seeker will take away even the below 30 meter dive for you and add even more uncertainty to the evading pilot. He will be forced to decide if he should be evading the incoming SAM or track and position himself for firing his ARM.

Quick kills are better. Longer ranges are predictable.

Here's the radar horizon infographic for you. So even if you are at 25 ft and the radar at say 10 ft. the range is still 10 nautical miles or 18 km. Can you escape this level of danger to you. Would launch your ARM or would you try to evade.
Impressive. Very very impressive analysis.

What my argument in previous posts were that we are using this for a decade and we conceived it a decade ago. This is a high time we need to have an upgraded version better in all perimeters. This is a high time we have MK2. Now a days glide bombs released from a distance upto 100 KM travels to target. So we need a range improvement. if it is 40 KM with better flight envelope and more accuracy, it has a manyfold deterrence potential. 27 KM range seems to be too short.
 

Yumdoot

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Impressive. Very very impressive analysis.

What my argument in previous posts were that we are using this for a decade and we conceived it a decade ago. This is a high time we need to have an upgraded version better in all perimeters. This is a high time we have MK2. Now a days glide bombs released from a distance upto 100 KM travels to target. So we need a range improvement. if it is 40 KM with better flight envelope and more accuracy, it has a manyfold deterrence potential. 27 KM range seems to be too short.
These glide bombs are going to cost 20000 USD (dumb) + probably 10000 USD (glide mechanism). For a 30000 USD bomb you can either only put in a cheaper missile or go after the aircraft that can launch it.

Should you choose the second method, you end up wasting a 10 million USD SAM with a Pk of 50% max at its outer ranges. Probably even lower. Idealized Pk that is there on the brochure is without counters and evasions. It relies on Look first shoot first and don't get seen.

Instead why don't you just increase the power apertures and ranges of your radars (Russian radars are peaking at 270KW plus) and get the datalink ranges improved (Rustom-2 datalink is good for 250-350 km with LOS) and get the Akash Battery positioned further towards the possible ingress paths.

60% of the cost of a SAM is its Seeker. Paying that much you have to make sure it works. Yeh eik saand hai jo khata hai kuch karta nahi sirf isliye ke jab jarurat pade (impregnation time) tab kaam pakka kare. Even to ensure this you will still need to work on your radars.
 

Scrutator

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Astra is an AAM and if you want to convert it to SAM with same performance, then you can't keep its weight to current 150kg. You have to add additional stage with it to provide it with required thrust to attain altitude. Then it would be a multistaged heavier SAM.
For the same obvious reason you cant compare R-73, an AAM with SAM. Engine alone is not responsible to provide required thrust for speed. You have to take care of the whole dynamics and working principle.
The task of converting Astra into a short range (probably also quick reaction) SAM doesn't sound that difficult or daunting if you consider that all initial tests of Astra (before aerial tests were initiated) were actually tested as a SAM - launched from ground in almost vertical orientation!
 

Chinmoy

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The task of converting Astra into a short range (probably also quick reaction) SAM doesn't sound that difficult or daunting if you consider that all initial tests of Astra (before aerial tests were initiated) were actually tested as a SAM - launched from ground in almost vertical orientation!
No, its not at all daunting or impossible. Its very much possible. But what I am saying is that you cant use an AAM as a SAM in its basic configuration.
 

Scrutator

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No, its not at all daunting or impossible. Its very much possible. But what I am saying is that you cant use an AAM as a SAM in its basic configuration.
Agreed. There will be some minor reconfiguration that may be required like software changes, possibly providing additional thrust during the boost phase (without using an explicit booster). This becomes all the more attractive with Astra Mk2 (which is developed with larger range and better maneuverability). Just as a way of example: Remember that both Python and Derby exist in both SAM and AAM versions.
 

charlie

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What kind of a SAM would you like to face off with if you were a pilot?

One that is quick, carries thrust giving multiple passes and demands very short reaction time from the evading pilot and the off board sensors put out so much power that you cannot ever jam them.

OR

One that travels very long ranges with a Mach cone shining on the IRST at 500 degree celsius for a very long time in a predictable path facing you and just when it fires up its second pulse you are able to simply change directions and break lock from the small field of regard (tracking mode) or range, that the onboard sensors can muster.

There is no match, Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power. That is way more than anything that anybody can muster flying in a fighter plane. So you cannot jam a superior burn through performance.

Theoretically you could launch an anti radiation missile at the Akash radar but only if you have time for it. Most likely the Akash Group Control Centre has 2/3 BLRs at its disposal over and above the 3D CAR with all data fused and re-transmitted to the Akash Batteries which could be overlapping killing fields or separated by 30 km. You will not even know which BLR switched on for how much time and which of these multiple radars will be providing the inputs for guiding the incoming Akash.

You could dive to a lower altitude but the BLR sees you at 30 meters altitude at 20 km range again data fused at GCC and passed on the the Battery Level Command Centre, which is actually the ones guiding the Akash SAM. Not the radars. And BLRs would be coming on at the very last few moments. Most times the 3D CAR based data fused guidance provided by GCC and uplinked to the Akash by the BCC will be working.

You cannot use DIRCM or DFRM on Akash because Akash is command guided.

Now in future the active seeker will take away even the below 30 meter dive for you and add even more uncertainty to the evading pilot. He will be forced to decide if he should be evading the incoming SAM or track and position himself for firing his ARM.

Quick kills are better. Longer ranges are predictable.

Here's the radar horizon infographic for you. So even if you are at 25 ft and the radar at say 10 ft. the range is still 10 nautical miles or 18 km. Can you escape this level of danger to you. Would launch your ARM or would you try to evade.
not exactly fighter but EA-6B Prowler APS 130 and there is a new system on the horizon too. ;)
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=73
 

Yumdoot

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not exactly fighter but EA-6B Prowler APS 130 and there is a new system on the horizon too. ;)
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=73
This is what I said culled from the official advertisements:
"Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power"

I did not say that peak power was exactly 70KW, just as the official advertisements did not say that either ;).

Russian radars of equal size/roles were putting out 270KW in peak power about a decade back.

For APS-130 the peak power is 100 KW. And with a radar Weight of 173 kg it would be interesting to see how long it can maintain that peak performance. APS-146 is listed at 60KW peak power.
 

Kunal Biswas

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DRDO'S QRSAM design


HYDERABAD: Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for joint development and production of the indigenous Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QRSAM).

The missile will be designed and developed by DRDO and will be manufactured by BDL, the ministry of defence nominated Production Agency, for supply to the Indian Army.

The MoU was signed by V. Udaya Bhaskar, CMD, BDL and Dr K. Jayaraman, director, DRDL on April 29 at DRDL. Directors and senior officials from BDL and DRDO were present on the occasion.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...oped-by-BDL-and-DRDO/articleshow/52054713.cms

The task of converting Astra into a short range (probably also quick reaction) SAM doesn't sound that difficult or daunting if you consider that all initial tests of Astra (before aerial tests were initiated) were actually tested as a SAM - launched from ground in almost vertical orientation!
Agreed. There will be some minor reconfiguration that may be required like software changes, possibly providing additional thrust during the boost phase (without using an explicit booster). This becomes all the more attractive with Astra Mk2 (which is developed with larger range and better maneuverability). Just as a way of example: Remember that both Python and Derby exist in both SAM and AAM versions.
 

Kunal Biswas

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These are not Akash SAM, The chassis and Missiles are different ..

------------




This is SA-6 and the chassis is based on MT-LB chassis ..

====================





Akash SAM is fatter and use T-72 chassis including the radar ..

You mean this chasis is similar to SA 6 ?
 

charlie

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This is what I said culled from the official advertisements:
"Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power"

I did not say that peak power was exactly 70KW, just as the official advertisements did not say that either ;).

Russian radars of equal size/roles were putting out 270KW in peak power about a decade back.

For APS-130 the peak power is 100 KW. And with a radar Weight of 173 kg it would be interesting to see how long it can maintain that peak performance. APS-146 is listed at 60KW peak power.
I guess peak power would be around 107 and they can run it at 107 too, don't know for how much time, though the technical data says 100 KW

it can maintain 75 to 85 KW as far as I can assume with my experience. but again it's not for a fighter sized aircraft.
 

charlie

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This is what I said culled from the official advertisements:
"Akash fire control radars put out >70KW peak power"

I did not say that peak power was exactly 70KW, just as the official advertisements did not say that either ;).

Russian radars of equal size/roles were putting out 270KW in peak power about a decade back.

For APS-130 the peak power is 100 KW. And with a radar Weight of 173 kg it would be interesting to see how long it can maintain that peak performance. APS-146 is listed at 60KW peak power.

check out this website to get an idea of aps130
http://avia-kurs.narod.ru/aviation.electricity.and.electronics.radar.pdf ( look at
Figure 1-21.—Radar Control Panel - Controls and Indicators.)

Power Oscillator Transmitter- Magnetron
http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.transmitters/Radar Transmitter.en.html

hopefully one day someone will post it here.

http://radar.tpub.com
 
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tejas warrior

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I do not like this BS range of 27 to 30 KM. It should atleast be 50 KM to 70 KM. let us hope that Akash MK2 shall take care of it.
Akash MK2 dubbed as Akash NG will be of range 40Km.

However, there is expected to considerable improvement in terms of Guidance & Seekers.
 

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