Agni-VI Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)

[Yusuf]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

IMO Agni-7 will be a MIRV'd SLBM;still about 3-7 years away?

Agni series all land based. K series SLBM.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

Agni series all land based. K series SLBM.

Either AGNI or K series an MIRV'd SLBM will be the ultimate deterrent.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

Either AGNI or K series an MIRV'd SLBM will be the ultimate deterrent.

Well first will be based on A3 with probably a single warhead and next one will be based on A5 with MIRV

 

[Patriot]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

IMO Agni-7 will be a MIRV'd SLBM;still about 3-7 years away?

Once we get A-6 MIRVed successfully tested next is K-4 MIRVed underwater launch. I am hopeful K-4 realization shall be by 2015 & Arihant shall be waiting for the mating. :thumb:

Any guess when A-6 launch may take place?

I forsee possibly by Jan 2014.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

Once we get A-6 MIRVed successfully tested next is K-4 MIRVed underwater launch. I am hopeful K-4 realization shall be by 2015 & Arihant shall be waiting for the mating. :thumb:

Any guess when A-6 launch may take place?

I forsee possibly by Jan 2014.

I think it will be after the 3 planned tests of A5 which will validate all technologies and set the stage for A6

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

Once we get A-6 MIRVed successfully tested next is K-4 MIRVed underwater launch. I am hopeful K-4 realization shall be by 2015 & Arihant shall be waiting for the mating. :thumb:

Any guess when A-6 launch may take place?

I forsee possibly by Jan 2014.

It should be timed properly to deliver the biggest bang for the buck.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

AGNI VI was rumored to have an MIRV's SLBM variant?

India has started working on Agni 6 with 6000 km range and MIRV

 

[sorcerer]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

There is no such cap. In an earlier article, it was stated that Agni-VI would have a 500km range increase.
(I'll try to find that article.)

EDIT: Oh, there are actually plenty of other sources that claim that the new missile will have a range of 6000 km- just search Google. Even the first post in this thread says it will have a 500 km increased range:



I personally feel its a little silly to have a new missile and only add 500 km (MIRV or no-MIRV), but hey, this is DRDO we're talking about here...

I think DRDO is trying to perfect the MIRV functionality rather than the range.
The Indian Missiles do have more than what it meets the eyes.

"Amibiguity " is a wonderful tool to use as a deterrent.

 

[roma]

Re: Agni-VI missile in works, India to be in world's elite Nuclear Clu

to me india had already "arrived" a few years ago when we demonstrated capability with missile development and the firm determination to keep going in the area , being staffed by very capable scientists and developers .......
what is now missing is the economic adjuncts , the manufacturing capability - to be able ( like china ) to churn out almost anything from a pin in the rifle's system to nuke-powered subs - and to do it locally - but the Dr Anthony's latest bill seeks to put that into order .

ICBM capability for india was a reality already some years back - remember we withheld testing several times in favour of pushing forward the deals with the USA

inda had been member of the nuke club way back - it's just our economy and the fact that we still have 300 million under the poverty line - all of that culminating in an "IMAGE" that makes people think twice !

what india needs do is to change that image - and that means the economic upliftment of the lowest ! because militarily india had more or less already arrived

 

[sayareakd]

 

[olivers]

Looks like Agni VI or Agni VII as the case maybe is MIRV/MARV 3 tonne, 6000KM ICBM. The how to get there on Agni VII or Agni VI is also spelt out. Agni V uses a metallic first stage motor. They are planning to use a 40 tonne composite motor. It sort of clears the air on why all stages were Composite. I suppose the composite first stage did not include composite motors. Therefore the final missile hopes to gain a lot of tonnage/range by doing this final step. The largest such motor for Agni VI or Agni VII. It's not sure Agni VI will be the monster. Chander in a recent NDTV? walking in the lawn interview stated that he has not decided what the mirv/marv missile will be called. (Agni V+ or Agni VI or Agni VII), similar to the Agni II+ to Agni IV 1.1 meter counterforce singe warhead missile. Agni V being the counter value MIRV ready missile or a bigger counter value single warhead equivalent.

Given it's one of his last interviews, he seems to have laid out the final interviews with a defiant: We are close to a Trident II kind of goodbye. I read we are close as 6 to 7 years away, with the landmobile MIRV icbm around 3 to 4 years away.(He says "eventually" Agni VI/VII will be 13 meters in length and 2 meters in dia.) The number of Agni Vtests has gone up from the stated 3 earlier to five in this interview. Hints for the clever. Eventually this missile will morph into our final credible deterrent undersea. AKA, this is Surya II and the underwater equivalent will be based on this misslie. Agni V was Surya I.


Based on the earlier projections on enrichment capabilities and the reported 12 nuclear submarines India is interested in it looks like 4 x 4 x 8 dial-able HEU encased nukes is what India wants fielded in the next decade. Arihant might just be experimental and the one after that too. There seems to be a relaxed approach to what we need and there seems to be a plan on howto get there. 2020 might be the target date on the fissile materials and 2025 is more likely the delayed deployment. Of course none of this answers the fissile vs sizzle debate. Would we invest in a 3 tonne 6000km ICBM with MIRV if we did not think we had minaturized nukes or are pretty close to minaturized thermonukes with a couple of tests? It could also be a problem of confidence levels of the thermonukes if and when we need them. Assuming it was a sizzle, it might not be a bad idea to test them when the situation gets out of hand for us(provided they don't spin off too fast). Not ideal, but I guess the best we can hope for now.(Please note that I don't have a dispositive position on the sizzle vs fizzle debate and I don't care either way ....). Either way, these are very determined steps and possibly the genie is out there and there is nothing much to cap and roll back ... I think the Americans and the Europeans have seen the writing on the wall with the Agni V test ... and china to a limited extent ...

Well I think I will stop following the ballistic missile tests for a while... It seems like there isn't much to this space in India except for implementing the designs and hoping things go to plan. The end message seems to be Given Agni V was modular with the largest composite motor so far in India. Agni VI/VII is just a bigger composite motor and additional design changes away ... An engineering challenge, but no longer a technological leap, with most of the technologies firmly under our grasp ... The political will is another question, but so far it seems a lot of governments have had the will ...


Advanced Agni-6 missile with multiple warheads likely by 2017


By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 8th May 13

Ending worldwide speculation about the futuristic Agni-6 missile, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has briefed Business Standard about the direction of India's ballistic missile development programme after the Agni-5 enters service, probably in 2015.

DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat, and missile programme chief Dr Avinash Chander, say the Agni-6 project has not been formally sanctioned. However, the missile's specifications and capabilities have been decided and development is proceeding apace. Once the ongoing Agni-5 programme concludes flight-testing, the defence ministry (MoD) will formally okay the Agni-6 programme and allocate funding.

Chander says the Agni-6 will carry a massive three-tonne warhead, thrice the weight of the one-tonne warhead that Agni missiles have carried so far. This will allow each Agni-6 missile to launch several nuclear warheads --- Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Warheads (MIRVs) --- with each warhead striking a different target. Each warhead --- called Maneuverable Reentry Vehicle (MARV) --- performs evasive maneuvers while hurtling down towards its target, confusing enemy air defence missiles that are trying to destroy them mid-air.

The DRDO is at an advanced stage of developing these warhead technologies. But the difficult challenge is building a booster rocket that can propel a three-tonne payload to targets 5000 kilometres away. This weighs almost as much as the satellite payload carried by the Indian Space Research Organisation's much larger and heavier Global Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV).

"Our ballistic missiles must be compact and road mobile, even the Agni-6 with its heavy payload. We will do this by building the first stage with composites, fitting the Agni-6 with India's first composite 40-tonne rocket motor. This is a technical challenge but we have good capability in lightweight composites," says Chander.

The road mobile Agni-6 would also have stringent limits on its length. "It must be carried on a standard size trailer that can move from one part of the country to another, turn on our roads, cross our bridges and climb our heights. As the payload weight increases, we will require more advanced technologies to keep the missile's length constant," explains Chander.

Coaxing higher performance from smaller rockets becomes especially important in submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), which can be no longer than 13 metres so that they can fit into the cramped confines of a submarine. Even long-range SLBMs that can fly 14,000 kilometres, like the Chinese JL-2, are built no longer than 13 metres. The DRDO faces this challenge as it develops the K-4 SLBM for the country's Arihant-class nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs).

Eventually the Agni-6 will be no taller than the Agni-5, i.e. about 17 metres, says Chander. It will, however, be heavier and thicker --- slightly over 2 metres --- which will cater for the different shape of the MIRV payload.

"The timeframe for developing a new missile system is about 5 years and the DRDO has mostly achieved this in the Agni programme," says Chander. Calculating five years from April 2012, when the Agni-5 had its debut launch, the first test of the Agni-6 could happen in 2017.

The DRDO says the Agni-6 will have a longer range than the 5000-kilometre Agni-5, but is not mentioning figures. "The MARVs and MIRVs will give us extended range. I will not be able to tell you how much because that is secret," Saraswat told Business Standard.

Ballistic calculations, however, suggest that at least some of the MIRV warheads on the Agni-6 would reach at least 6,000 kilometres. In a missile that travels 5,000 kilometres, the last MIRV warhead released flies an extra 1,000 kilometres.

Currently, the DRDO is readying for the second test next month of the Agni-5 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM). This will be fired in the same configuration as its debut test a year ago, in order to establish the missile's reliability. A third test by end-2013 will see the missile fired from a canister.

"We will conduct at least 5-6 more Agni-5 tests before the missile enters operational service. After the repeat test this month or the next, we will conduct two test firings from a canister. Then the military units that will operate the Agni-5 will conduct 2-3 test firings as part of the induction process. Even after induction, the users conduct test firings as part of the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) training plan," says Avinash Chander.

The Agni-5 is a three-stage, solid-fuel missile but its first stage consists of a metallic rocket motor, while the second and third stages have composite motors.

 

[sayareakd]

Way i see we are going to face lot of oppodition for A6 from uncle so we should teat it without much haala and work on it quitely. We should work on A5 slbm.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

China is developing Dong Feng-41 ICBM which has a range of 16,000 KM (approx.). So China is way ahead of India in terms of ICBM technology. I hope India has the capability to compete against China.

 

[sayareakd]

China is developing Dong Feng-41 ICBM which has a range of 16,000 KM (approx.). So China is way ahead of India in terms of ICBM technology. I hope India has the capability to compete against China.

We are going to Mars, is that good for you?

 

[kurup]

China is developing Dong Feng-41 ICBM which has a range of 16,000 KM (approx.). So China is way ahead of India in terms of ICBM technology. I hope India has the capability to compete against China.

Because China always have to take in the American factor while we do not for any near future.

As of now our threat perceptions lies in our bordering countries and a 6000 km range SLBM will be able to tackle it from the safety of BoB.

 

[olivers]

The inside story of SLBM K-15 » Indian Defence Review

Being developed now is the follow-on 20-tonne 10.22-metre long but fatter K-4 SLBM which will have a 3,500km-range for the next ATVs with bigger plugs as increasing the range is now possible. This will be followed by an enhanced 12-metre-long version of the K-4 SLBM with a 5,000km-range.

Well more importantly, AC has confirmed that Agni VI/VII/ Agni V+ will be 13 meteres eventually. The rest of the K-4 and K4++ are just stop-gaps. They maybe deployed in Arihant and then retired quickly to be replaced with the 3 tonne missile disclosed above. The warheads are changed, the throw-weight is adjusted and so on. 300kg x 10 Thermonukes, or 300kg x 4 for a longer throw distance. The yield could also be varied from 150 to 300KT based on requirements. If we have a thermonuke with a primary and the secondary ignited and only BARC is privy to radiological tests, the blanket can be dialed up or down. So yes as a stop-gap the 5,000km K-4 and 3500km K-4 are being developed and deployed.

I had written about modularity of the missiles a year back. I think it bears repetition. Please also look at my previous posts in this very thread where I talk about the modular extensions to the Agni series.

Agni III --- Has metal faring separator --- Metal missile body
Agni V --- Has no metal separator --- All composite body with a metal motor in the first stage, biggest composite motor in second stage
Agni VII --- Has no metal separator --- All composite body with all composite motors (3 tonne missile)

All of these misslies are interchangeable or rather upgradeable. To further add to confusion Agni VII as I describe above is the counter-value missile disclosed in the business standard article.

Agni VII will be SLBM. So the nomenclature will be fluid and DRDO might just name AVII described above as AVI to confuse observers.

Why does the missile have a 3 tonne payload? The answer for everyone in the west is ... India has bad heavy nukes unlike the west ... Nice enough cover to get to Surya II. BTW, if you notice what I have written, Surya II/Agni VI/VII is just another composite motor plus some engineering away. We already built the biggest composite motor for the second stage in Agni V. Now they need to replace the metal motor in the first stage of Agni V with a bigger composite motor according to AC. Please also remember what AC suggested after Agni V. We can build ICBMs with range and payload matching the rest of the world's best missiles, because of modularity. If people still demand more like Abhijeet with a 16K+ missile, A VI is that missile, which can be engineered as opposed to innovated. The re-entry vehicle and the mach numbers from Agni V was the signal that every innovation challenge to 16K or whatever K missile is behind us. All the modules are in place, all the legos are available.

Re-entry temperature and Mach speed of the previous A 5 launch was pretty close to some missile systems with names starting with trident, minuteman and such others. Please check the data. So if the re-entry vehicle is ready for the range, then the difference lies in the payload. We can continue to use the American perception cultivated or otherwise that our warheads are so heavy we need the same missiles the west needs to haul ass over 15,000 kilometers.

Please also read how the americans used minuteman and developed it. They had a digital computer and INS. The INS was updated with new data all the time to make the missiles more accurate. So the beauty of the Agni/Surya morphology is modularity and the extensions to range, payload and accuracy. It's a process which is shared by all our missiles with a similar INS across the board. You need to map the earth for variations of physical parameters to feed the INS. I don't know if we have done that yet or how much of the earth we have covered. So a lot of things play into the ICBM INS, which are em... engineering challenges and not innovation challenges.

Agni IV/V was an innovation challenge in getting retro separation, removing interconnection faring of A III etc. A VI/VII is an engineering challenge. Hope this answers some of the questions.

I know we are used to this talk about 5,000km 3,500km, 2000km with insane payloads of 2 tonnes and 3 tonnes. I mean lets be serious. India had 3500km in 2001 or 2002. Not very reliable, but yes we did have it. So in another decade we just moved to 5k? Please check comparable systems and tell me why the specifications of A VI/AVII match the specs of Trident II in everything except range? Your answer can be a) we need to haul a 1 to 1.5 tonne nuke while others are hauling a 300kg nuke or b) our propellents are from Diwali fireworks company or c) the warhead is deliberately made heavier to confuse the observers while keeping friends from prematurely getting worried/give them plausible deniability and the opportunity to express shock when the real range is revealed.

You can choose your favorite option. All three are plausible, but which of these is true. I lean towards C, unless proof emerges otherwise. C is more plausible if we are talking about MIRV/MARV development being the next challenge. It's amply clear DRDO feels they have these capabilities or are going to test them soon. I am ready to knock DRDO around on a lot of areas. We lack production facilities for our missiles. We did horribly so far with the Tejas, Arjun etc. However, they were not all white elephants. Jet engines are a problem for China just as much as it is for India. China is milling around the former soviet union to get things done, so are we.

However, the ballistic missile program is one space where they have overcome a lot of problems. Give them credit where it is due. The missiles are among the best in the world. Think trident II levels of sophistication and range in 7 years. 2020 was always the coming of age of India in the nuclear domain. This was also the policy objective in our enrichment efforts. Look at how far we are with the RMP enrichment plant and how many warheads we will have by 2020 and how many by 2025. The minimum credible deterrent is getting there. It's global. We are not idiots to ever forget the seventh fleet, give credit to a lot of governments who have followed through on this. (Every single one of them from 1950 onward ...) We made horrible mistakes, gave up a lot of things we should not have, we still make mistakes in nuclear deals and so on, but India did try her very best and is almost there.

Anyways, I should stop here.

 

[olivers]

Because China always have to take in the American factor while we do not for any near future.

As of now our threat perceptions lies in our bordering countries and a 6000 km range SLBM will be able to tackle it from the safety of BoB.

Well the 6k SLBM with 3 tonnes you mean? Yes yes it's 6k with a throw weight of 3 tonnes. Enough for BOB safety whatever. Or did you mean the K4 SLBM with 1 tonne @ 5k?

Seventh Fleet in 1971 is still a factor however chadi dosti we pick up. There are no permanent friends only interests. So yes the final 6k SLBM with 3 tonnes is all we need, only it looks awfully close to the specs of Trident II. 13meters, 2 meters, 3 tonnes, submarine launched, MIRV/MARV and so on ... Having an SLBM with K4 makes no sense. What are we going to do with the nuclear submarines? Only mill around in the Indian ocean region or send them on global patrols? The third leg is survivable because it travels across the globe and runs from any sonar contact if it can. 12 nuclear submarines that India wants is too many for the IOR. When they want 12, they obviously expect 6 to 9 being available and on tour all the time. So the missile AC disclosed is more the variety which can vist the atlantic and pacific oceans and yet counter threats in our near neighborhood if required. That is assured minimum credible deterrence. Survivability in the IOR will be quiet good but still not guaranteed. So really 12 subs gives you the idea of what India means by nuclear war and the ability to wage such war. Minimum as in minimal warheads, credible as in survivable. Anyways the plan calls for Trident II like missiles by 2020 or 2025 on 12 nuclear submarines, based on what we have seen reported so far. Will we get there on time ? I don't know, but it seems to be the bumbling elephants plan.

However, this is not a threat posture. It's just a defense posture. You need to be able to show you have the goods to play in the International arena as a global power. Like it or not we have to go there. Why? Because china is dragging us there. An IOR based regional deterrence even for China alone will not be enough. They could very well send attack subs to the IOR region with submarine detection assets incase of war so really, the submarines have to go everywhere and yet deliver. I hope this helps answer why the west knows the writing is on the wall. It's the way the game is played. 5k and 6k are plausible deniability without every denizen of the west getting their panties in a bunch demanding sanctions on India and for India to skirt around dealing with it until its deployed or near deployment. Big powers need the big toys.

 

[Payeng]

this may be Agni V but I have never seen this particular image before, if anyone have better resolution picture, I would love to see it, thank you.

 

[olivers]

this may be Agni V but I have never seen this particular image before, if anyone have better resolution picture, I would love to see it, thank you.

Or Agni VI/VII. The right most stage, first stage is composite as seen in the picture. The second stage is all composite with composite motor and there is no metal faring between the stages as seen in Agni III. There is also a conical composite motor the one near the payload used in Agni V and Agni VI/VII.(No confirmation on this yet.) So depends on what the last stage houses A composite motor or metal motor.

But yes, this appears to be Agni V being assembled.

On second thoughts I was wrong. The image below suggests it's Agni III with the metal faring hidden behind the composites. Like I said it's difficult to identify the proper missile unless you look for the modular changes which sort of shows why Agni series is complete and equivalent to other ICBMS in the world ... But the conical section in the picture near the warhead still leaves be scratching my head ... Two different galleys with AIII and AV being readied?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3EV0k0ooJIY/UYmcaasVVGI/AAAAAAAAD5w/WQ5hCbDlRgQ/s1600/Agni+assembly.jpg

 

[Payeng]

Or Agni VI/VII. The right most stage, first stage is composite as seen in the picture. The second stage is all composite with composite motor and there is no metal faring between the stages as seen in Agni III. There is also a conical composite motor the one near the payload used in Agni V and Agni VI/VII.(No confirmation on this yet.) So depends on what the last stage houses A composite motor or metal motor.

But yes, this appears to be Agni V being assembled.

First stage is the bottom most stage of a missile.