Age matters only in the Indian Army

[Ray]

Since i am not in army i dont know its internal workings and so im in no position to give suggestions.

I was asking if you had any ideas to make it better ?

Let us accept that the Army and the Govt are on the right lines.

I have nothing extraordinary on the issue to share since it is so complicated that one cannot be for something or against something.

The nub of the issue in any field is while it is to be objective, because we are all human and prone to human foibles, the exercise smack of subjectivity.

There has been no magic wand so far to remove the subjectivity, though continuous it is being tried without success!

Like Bhadra talks about Merit.

Is there any Model that can evaluate absolute merit without flaws in that evaluation?

 

[Ray]

Let us give you an example to judge that is real life.

In War, there is X who is sent on a raid 9 kms into enemy territory,, infiltrating through enemy posts and he succeeds.

In another unit, there is a chap Y, who from his post shoots 12 enemy personnel during the course of the war.

Both X and Y are of the same rank.

X's CO is a strict chap and evaluates as he feels one deserve.

Y's CO is a hail fellow well met jolly good fellow type.

X is given 6 out 9 in his ACR because the CO feels that X has merely done his duty for which he is paid and trained for.

Y is thought to have done a fantastic thing since others of his unit has not done anything near that and is given 8 out of 9.

The promotion board meets and analyses both X and Y's ACR, all other criteria being the same.

There is One Vacancy.

Who should the promotion board select for that One Vacancy?

X or Y?

Note 1: one has to see the Merit!

Note2 : there is no mention of what X or Y did in the ACR except the usual laudatory English

So who wins? X or Y?

6 or 8?

 

[The Messiah]

Let us give you an example to judge that is real life.

In War, there is X who is sent on a raid into enemy territory and he succeeds.

In another unit, there is a chap Y, who from his post shoot 12 enemy personnel.

Both X and Y are of the same rank.

X's CO is a strict chap and evaluates as he feels one deserve.

Y's CO is a hail fellow well met jolly good fellow type.

X is given 6 out 9 in his ACR because the CO feels that X has merely done his duty for which he is paid and trained for.

Y is thought to have done a fantastic thing since others of his unit has not done anything near that and is given 8 out of 9.

The promotion board meets and analyses both X and Y's ACR, all other criteria being the same.

There is One Vacancy.

Who should the promotion board select for that One Vacancy?

X or Y?

Note one has to see the Merit!

Note2 : there is no mention of what X or Y did in the ACR except the usual laudatory English

So who wins? X or Y?

6 or 8?

On the basis of above example only i think x should get promoted rather than y because his task seems tougher. strategizing for offence is considered from difficult and risky than defending one's turf.

although your point of process being subjective and prone to human error is taken.

 

[Ray]

On the basis of above example only i think x should get promoted rather than y because his task seems tougher. strategizing for offence is considered from difficult and risky than defending one's turf.

although your point of process being subjective and prone to human error is taken.

That is correct.

But does the Promotion Board know what X or Y did?

They are going by the numbers, the write up and other issues which are the same for both!

Even if you feel that one should write the exploit in the place for writing the pen picture, who has the space there or the inclination?

And even if written, the one whose CO is good at English will win!

Remember, the Promotion Board was not on the spot to see what happened!

 

[Ray]

So, it is subjective!

A mugs game for the Promotion Board.

Nothing is perfect!

The example I gave is a real life example!

That is why I, as a joke say, English is also a weapon of war and a force multiplier! as lethal as any other force multiplier!

 

[Ray]

Look at the lawyers.

The one with the gift of the gab gets even a murderer acquitted!

Listen to Manu Singhvi who plays hop scotch and never to the point and confuses the issue with inane adjectives and while away the time on TV debates and gets away smiling like a coy girl!

Read the glossies of weapon marketing and you can see the effect!

Many of our posters are enamoured and do down our own products which have faced the test of time!

Everything is subjective!

They say everyone else's wife is beautiful and so very hardworking.

Ask the husband!

Nothing in life is perfect!

 

[Bhadra]

You said:
No one had forced anyone to join. It is still a voluntary army. Everyone joins with his eye, ears and mind open to all the advantages and disadvantages.


I am surprised an officer of your caliber says this.
Does an NDA cadet joins the academy fully aware that he is only cut out to be general?
Was this residual service business always been there? who introduced this and why?
Who was the first NDA cadet to make it it Chief and what was before that? you will surprised to know that !
Other entry cadets are not told that by birth in Army itself they will not make it to generals. Is that the " Condition of Service" for them?
Yes every one joins voluntarily but then having joined there can not be distinction between them. It is their performance that matters and not which Sainik School they come from? That happens to be the greatest merit now a days?
An organisation must offer equal opportunity to all and a level playing field to all. I would prefer a good military officer irrespective of his entry rather than a dishonest shammer who does not posses any military quality but only is a show off. Who lives on the principles of beg borrow and steal !

 

[Ray]

You said:
No one had forced anyone to join. It is still a voluntary army. Everyone joins with his eye, ears and mind open to all the advantages and disadvantages.


I am surprised an officer of your caliber says this.
Does an NDA cadet joins the academy fully aware that he is only cut out to be general?
Was this residual service business always been there? who introduced this and why?
Who was the first NDA cadet to make it it Chief and what was before that? you will surprised to know that !
Other entry cadets are not told that by birth in Army itself they will not make it to generals. Is that the " Condition of Service" for them?
Yes every one joins voluntarily but then having joined there can not be distinction between them. It is their performance that matters and not which Sainik School they come from? That happens to be the greatest merit now a days?
An organisation must offer equal opportunity to all and a level playing field to all. I would prefer a good military officer irrespective of his entry rather than a dishonest shammer who does not posses any military quality but only is a show off. Who lives on the principles of beg borrow and steal !

No, I did not enter the NDA to be a General.

I entered it because I wanted to.

I was advised to join the IAS.

I joined NDA because I wanted to follow the family traditions.

In the Army, in those days, to be a CO was more than enough!

I have gone beyond the CO in my profession and I can, as other also say, there is nothing better than being a CO, for that is the last bastion where you can shape the destiny of people!

 

[Ray]

Who was the first NDA cadet to make it it Chief and what was before that? you will surprised to know that !

You tell me.]

I am not surprised.

Guess why?

I was a Bn Cdr there when he came to take the salute with those of the Navy and Air Force and of the same course!

 

[Bhadra]

Let us give you an example to judge that is real life.

In War, there is X who is sent on a raid 9 kms into enemy territory,, infiltrating through enemy posts and he succeeds.

In another unit, there is a chap Y, who from his post shoots 12 enemy personnel during the course of the war.

Both X and Y are of the same rank.

X's CO is a strict chap and evaluates as he feels one deserve.

Y's CO is a hail fellow well met jolly good fellow type.

X is given 6 out 9 in his ACR because the CO feels that X has merely done his duty for which he is paid and trained for.

Y is thought to have done a fantastic thing since others of his unit has not done anything near that and is given 8 out of 9.

The promotion board meets and analyses both X and Y's ACR, all other criteria being the same.

There is One Vacancy.

Who should the promotion board select for that One Vacancy?

X or Y?

Note 1: one has to see the Merit!

Note2 : there is no mention of what X or Y did in the ACR except the usual laudatory English

So who wins? X or Y?

6 or 8?

That is only one aspect but Y can have better demonstrative performance.
Y can have a good war report.
Y can be decorated in gallantry.
Y can have excellent Course reports.

Besides there is Z, theh reviewing officer on top who has his opinion on top of the two COs. He is second input. then there is the third input. The reviewing officer belongs to the cast of N. he will put him up. thereby balancing X.
There are so many factors but hose can not and do not continue for 18 to 20 years of service in the same way. By that time of 15 -16 years of service, an overall picture does emerge.

That is why present system of selection which takes only a few back reports into account is deficient in ruling out subjectivity. Age as Reservation becomes a factor amongst selected !!
present chief was rejected in Maj General's broad because he was youngest and the people that mattered wanted someone else to rise. What more example would one need.

 

[Ray]

We in the Army have equal opportunities.


What makes you feel we don't?

 

[Ray]

That is only one aspect but Y can have better demonstrative performance.
Y can have a good war report.
Y can be decorated in gallantry.
Y can have excellent Course reports.

But I said all factors were same.

One can't daydream having awards and courses result.

Can that not happen?

What do you think awards are?

Taken out of the basket and handed over as if giving blankets to the flood victims?

Besides there are is Z oth reviewing officer on top who has his openion on top of the tqo COs. He is second input. then there is the third input. The reviewing officer belongs to the cast of Y. he will put him up. thereby balancing X.
There are so many factors but hose can not and do not continue for 18 to 20 years of service. By that time an overall picture does ememerge.

Z, the reviewing officer has not enough intimate knowledge as a CO has!

There are many factors in one service, but there are most who are up for promotions who have similar inputs!

If it were so simple you would not have had so many statutory and non statutory complaints.

That is why present system of selection which taken only a few back reports is deficient in ruling out subjectivity. Age as Reservation becomes a factor amongst selected !!

Promotion is based on all reports after a certain year of service and rank.

There is no reservations!

BTW, have you some grievance of your own (that is if you have worn the uniform or citing some of your friend in uniform's grievance?)

If so, state it and let me see if I can answer.

If not I will draw the MS' attention!

 

[Bhadra]

For the health of an organisation like Army where one has to commit himself to nothing less than supreme sacrifices, it can afford divisions and varying conditions for its officers class.

There can not be a class which thinks and makes conditions for themselves to be generals and the other which knows they are only being used.

Can Army afford such distinction like police where all work is done by someone but the boss is a new lad called IPS.

 

[Ray]

For the health of an organisation like Army where one has to commit himself to nothing less than supreme sacrifices, it can afford divisions and varying conditions for its officers class.

There can not be a class which thinks and makes conditions for themselves to be generals and the other which knows they are only being used.

Can Army afford such distinction like police where all work is done by someone but the boss is a new lad called IPS.

Do you really think that becoming a General is that easy.

If it were because of NDA, then why are all NDA people not General and why some have retired as Major and now as non selection Colonels and others have gone to become Generals?

What humbug are you trying to propagate?

Slim was from the ranks and became a General.

Kundan Singh was from the ranks and became a General.

It is people like you, who are perpetually of the complaining and cribbing mindset, you find fault with the system.

I, as all those I know, never bothered what was one's entry, caste ,community or religion and we worked fine and without any complaints.

And we never cared who rose to what rank and what was his antecedents because it did not concern us and we knew that the system with all its fault was applicable to all of us.

It is those who are ambitious and incompetent to boot and have no confidence in themselves, are the one who grouse!

There are people who say I did not exploit my potential to reach the starry heights. Comforting words. But then who is at fault? Me or the system?

Why blame the system for your deficiencies?

The fact that I am remembered fondly wherever I go including people I am surprised that they know of me, is a greater honour, than being the Chief as Deepak Kapoor, who would be hardly welcomed into any unit or Mess!

One must be satisfied with what God had given rather than aspire to heights where you are ridiculed and condemned.

The last word is We must be at Peace with ourselves and not dream and be miserable!

 

[Bhadra]

Do you really think that becoming a General is that easy.

Slim was from the ranks and became a General.

Kundan Singh was from the ranks and became a General.

It is people like you, who are perpetually of the complaining and cribbing mindset, you find fault with the system.

I, as all those I know, never bothered what was one's entry, caste ,community or religion and we worked fine and without any complaints.

And we never cared who rose to what rank and what was his antecedents because it did not concern us and we knew that the system with all its fault was applicable to all of us.

It is those who are ambitious and incompetent to boot and have no confidence in themselves, are the one who grouse!

There are people who say I did not exploit my potential to reach the starry heights. Comforting words. But then who is at fault? Me or the system?

Why blame the system for your deficiencies?

The fact that I am remembered fondly wherever I go including people I am surprised that they know of me, is a greater honour, than being the Chief as Deepak Kapoor, who would be hardly welcomed into any unit or Mess!

One must be satisfied with what God had given rather than aspire to heights where you are ridiculed and condemned.

The last word is We must be at Peace with ourselves and not dream and be miserable!

Romanticism and reality is different Brig!
Every one has the right of equal opportunities>
If so why introduce barriers in favour of a chosen few ??

 

[Ray]

Romanticism and reality is different Brig!
Every one has the right of equal opportunities>
If so why introduce barriers in favour of a chosen few ??

Of course you would know.

You wore the uniform.

You fought the wars.

We just stood and waited!

We wore the uniform and merely walked through life. A few wars in between, but they were but video games!

But then what would I know what an expert like you knows?!

 

[Bhadra]

SUNDAY SENTIMENTS No defence for this

[video]http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/PUBLICATIONS/HT/HC/2012/01/22/ArticleHtmls/SUNDAY-SENTIMENTS-No-defence-for-this-22012012008034.shtml?Mode=1[/video]

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Therefore, there is no cut and dried solution!

Sir, I believe things would work themselves out nicely in the event of a real large-scale shooting war. Sorry to say.

 

[Ray]

WGE,

All is well.

It is the uninitiated, you are more concerned!

 

[Bhadra]

Brig<
I fall back to the basic question.
Is age a merit for promotion to higher ranks?

say yes or No, or the arguments never end.

In your style only - let us not beat around the bush.