After years of TOT, why is India lagging behind?

sob

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To yusuf and lethalforce

The main part of production is the metallurgy and precision equipments like CNC machines. Adcanced CNC machines are not allowed to be imported in india because of dual use nature. The advanced metallurgy know how is also not given because we can use them in other places.Whereas China does not faces such restrictions. But still they are not able to come up with a working engine. This is where the nuclear deal comes in to picture we will be relieved from lot of restrictions. Normally in the name of ToT wqe just get the finished part and use the screw driver technology to assemble them (technician's job). Remember we have invented the high strength steel for building our ships. Because this was not transferred even by Russia they were ready to export the finished steel to us. Remember the super computer saga :) We should be proud off our labs who have achieved so much in spite of so many restrictions imposed on them. Hope this clarifies to some extent.
Nitesh, the problems are not with the CNC machines. One of the best CNC machines are made by companies in Sweden and Switzerland, and as far as I know that we do not have any embargo or restriction on importing these machines.
 

sob

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The whole issue here is that our PSUs are not geared up to be innovative enough. In these organisations it is not encouraged of their employees to be innovative or to think out of the box. They are considered a threat to other people.
ISRO has been successful because they have involved Pvt. Sector participation in critical areas. With increased levels of involvement of companies like Tatas.Godrej L&T and mahindras I am sure that very soon we shall be developing our own indigenous defence systems.
 

pankaj nema

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We have three STRATEGIC departments . 1. atomic energy 2 space (ISRO) 3. Defence ( DRDO )
You can ARGUE that while DAE and ISRO have made more progress than DRDO, we must also remember
that DRDO has to do much more
From small arms, grenades to tanks, artillery, mortars , radars, sonars , battlefield sensors, NBC protective equipment ,clothing ,ready to eat meals ,aircraft engines to torpedoes then MISSILES ( ALL types and ranges)
and now ABM systems, NET centric warfare systems etc. etc
And armed forces need the best .So it is not easy to keep pace with developed countries.
Technological changes are rapid
SALARY is also a factor A large number of our engineers join private sector , go abroad /or go for IAS , MBA.
So dont worry BE HAPPY we SHALL OVERCOME.

NOW our economy is doing much better.SO MORE resources can be allocated.
Now the trend is to go for international collaboration with Russia Israel etc. rather than re inventing the wheel.
 

p2prada

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There are 2 reasons for ToT:

It was meant to get hold of new manufacturing technologies and learn something by looking at a blue print. Any kind of further development of that technology needed money and we did not have much of it.

Most importantly ToT provided the services with the ability to make changes in the software for changing scenarios. For eg the radar needs to be calibrated differently for a desert environment compared to a mountain environment. This required ToT.
 

notinlove

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Well for this dismal state of affairs in india i can point my fingre at 3 things

1. lack of incentives : Yes as ludicrous as it sounds it is true , there is so much money in defence but none of that money gets to the developers , for example in the west if some brilliant mind develops a weapon that is ground breaking , there are a ton of companies that would want to hire him, but thats not so in india , it doesn't matter how brilliant you are , or what is the magnitude of impact that you have made , there is only one company that you can work for and that is DRDO , it is demotivating both for those who are working and also for those who are looking to work in such organization, when young kids doing engineering see that they can make 3 times more money working in a comfortable job for a software company , why would they go for DRDO .

2.No competition : Lets face it , competition brings out the best in people. It is absolutely absent in india , lets go a decade back , till then no indian company had ever competed with the drdo to supply equipment to the army , such huge monopoly and comfortable work environment inspires nothing but lethargy in employees , its not DRDO's fault its just human nature .

3.No sharing of knowledge : how many aeronautical institutes are there in india?how many shipl design schools are there?how many institutes offer courses in gun designing and all, no courses in advanced metalurgy , breakthroughs made by even indian scientists are never included in curriculum , all that wealth of knowledge that scientists at DRDO have and all that they gain with Tot gets wasted each and every year because they don't share it , there are no specialised courses in india catering to people who are fascinated by defence equipment and would like to do something regarding it.

according to me we should start specialized institutes.
and give rise to competition in defence procurement.
 

nitesh

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Nitesh, the problems are not with the CNC machines. One of the best CNC machines are made by companies in Sweden and Switzerland, and as far as I know that we do not have any embargo or restriction on importing these machines.
Sob I really meant the dual use items
 

bigtiger

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Where in my posts I mentioned that China import the stuff? I merely stated China does not faces restriction
China is a CNC machine exporting country. Just Google Search it.

"After three decades of development, the CNC (Computer Numerical Control) rate of China's machine tool industry increased from 26.2% in 2001 to 55.8% in 2009. During the first eleven months of 2009, China produced 139,000 CNC machine tools, including 125,000 sets of CNC metal cutting machine tool and 9,628 sets of CNC forming machine tool. It is evaluated that China's output of CNC machine tool will be 150,000 sets in 2009."
 

Armand2REP

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China is a CNC machine exporting country. Just Google Search it.

"After three decades of development, the CNC (Computer Numerical Control) rate of China's machine tool industry increased from 26.2% in 2001 to 55.8% in 2009. During the first eleven months of 2009, China produced 139,000 CNC machine tools, including 125,000 sets of CNC metal cutting machine tool and 9,628 sets of CNC forming machine tool. It is evaluated that China's output of CNC machine tool will be 150,000 sets in 2009."
China is a net importing CNC country. China makes the low end while they import the more expensive high-end. In 2003 they exported $61.4 million while importing $2.7 billion. If the industry increased 40-50% in that time, it is still nowhere near a net exporting country.
 

bigtiger

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China is a net importing CNC country. China makes the low end while they import the more expensive high-end. In 2003 they exported $61.4 million while importing $2.7 billion. If the industry increased 40-50% in that time, it is still nowhere near a net exporting country.
That's good to know.

So either for India or for China, before they start building first-class weapons, planes or submarines, the first thing to do is to build a strong industrial base. That includes materials, manufacturing, logistics, and fundamental researches.
 

nitesh

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China is a CNC machine exporting country. Just Google Search it.

"After three decades of development, the CNC (Computer Numerical Control) rate of China's machine tool industry increased from 26.2% in 2001 to 55.8% in 2009. During the first eleven months of 2009, China produced 139,000 CNC machine tools, including 125,000 sets of CNC metal cutting machine tool and 9,628 sets of CNC forming machine tool. It is evaluated that China's output of CNC machine tool will be 150,000 sets in 2009."
You really read my post or just for the heck you are putting putting some nonsense post. Go read my post first
 

Singh

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Where in my posts I mentioned that China import the stuff? I merely stated China does not faces restriction
I disagree Chinese currently have more restrictions than us. We are importing military tech from Europe, Far East Asia, Russia, US, Israel etc.
 

no smoking

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Where in my posts I mentioned that China import the stuff? I merely stated China does not faces restriction
Where did I argue that China import this stuff or not? I merely stated China does fac e RESTRICTION, even stricter. It is rediculous to believe that the "Communist" China would get a better treatment from west than "democratic" India.
 

no smoking

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To build first class weapons you need to have good production techniques. China still relies on low end cheap production as does there military. Many of their armaments are made in little shops rather than professional high tech factories.
That is whole idea of development, isn't it?

You have to start from somewhere with simple and easy part. With the accumulation of skills and capital, experience, you may think of moving into next level.
 

nitesh

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I disagree Chinese currently have more restrictions than us. We are importing military tech from Europe, Far East Asia, Russia, US, Israel etc.
The key word is CURRENTLY
 

hit&run

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Push for military-industrial complex in India?
Deutsch Español Français04 Sep 2009 — javier
Indian acquisitions of military hardware are the hot topic in the global armaments bazaar. India is expected to spend around $30 billion on arms imports over the next few years. India is perhaps the world’s largest importer of armaments with annual expenditure of around $6 billion on this count, a sizeable proportion of India’s defence budget of $28 billion for 2009-10. Security analysts are fond of pointing out that this is only around 2.5% of GDP compared to India’s neighbours Pakistan and China whose annual defence budgets are around 4.5% ($4.4 billion) and 4% ($100 billion) of their GDP respectively. While the merits or otherwise of India’s defence spending are beyond the scope of this article, it rather addresses an aspect that has largely escaped scrutiny. The nature and scale of India’s massive defence imports, the recent and growing involvement of large Indian corporates and global armaments manufacturers, and the government’s policies in general and those governing the defence industry in particular are all coming together to lay the foundation of what may be a military-industrial complex in India coming up in place of a staid, some would even say dull, inward looking and mainly state owned industry.

Three distinct but inter-related trends are visible in India’s defence sector. First, there is a steady trend of rising defence budgets related to substantive modernization of India’s military as well as a new strategic outlook. Second, large-scale procurement of new high-value military hardware is a major element of these modernization plans, due to a combination of flawed and delayed procurement of equipment in earlier decades, obsolescence of current hardware and failure of indigenous efforts to meet the military’s requirements. Third, a major proportion of this procurement is from foreign suppliers but with offset provisions under which domestic firms should be substantially involved in execution of these orders. These trends put together reflect a significant shift in Indian military, industrial and science and technology policy with noteworthy implications for the Indian defence industry but also for the global arms industry at least in the short to medium term.

Rising imports

Indian capital expenditures in defence have been on a steady upswing since 2004-05 when acquisitions went up from around $3.5 billion in value to around $7.5 billion in each of the following three years and then rose to around $11 billion in 2008-09. Aircraft, naval vessels and accompanying communications and weapons systems are of course very expensive and their acquisition has involved big-ticket orders. Adding to the need for, and cost of, the military modernization programme has been the so-called “Revolution in Military Affairs” (RMA) --- a term applied to the qualitative jump in hardware capabilities and development of “force multipliers” --- due to rapid advances in electronics, satellite-based communications, computers and networking systems, along with the sharp increase in use of missiles, other airborne systems and precision-guided munitions.

In India, force modernization in the Army has meant acquisition of new infantry gear, artillery guns, contemporary tanks and anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems. Whereas even these have involved relatively large expenditure, the real big money has been spent on the navy and the air force. This trend is likely to continue well into the next decade as well.

The Indian Air Force has in recent times acquired Hercules troop carrier aircraft from the US, Ilyushin mid-air refueling tankers from Russia, Phalcon airborne early-warning systems from Israel mounted on a Russian Ilyushin plane, quite apart from the agreement with Russia in the late 1990s for the custom-built Sukhoi 30 MkI fighters of which 40 have been purchased outright with a further 100 being produced under license in India with an option for additional numbers if required. The Navy has acquired the Lockheed P8 long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine aircraft, has entered into a deal with France for co-production of 6 Scorpene diesel-powered submarines, and has agreements in place with Russia for purchase of a refitted aircraft carrier and lease of two nuclear-powered submarines, combining to give it a blue-water capability in the wider Indian Ocean region or even beyond. All three services have also acquired numerous types of tactical missiles and related systems, mostly from Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) but some also from Russia, for land, sea and air operations. A $2 billion deal was recently concluded by the Army with IAI for land-based missile defence systems. Suppliers the world over are now holding their breath waiting for India to complete user trials and then place orders for 190 advanced helicopters costing around $1 billion and the truly mouth-watering so-called “mother of all orders”, the largest single order in military aviation history, for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) expected to be worth about $10 billion.
The above acquisitions from abroad have been over and above the completed or on-going indigenous production of numerous battleships, five nuclear-powered nuclear-armed submarines (the first of which, the INS Arihant was launched just last month), two aircraft carriers, an Indian-designed Main Battle Tank to supplement the license-produced T-90 tanks of Russian origin, the forthcoming serial production of the Indian-designed Light Combat Aircraft and the many different indigenous short, medium and long-range ballistic missiles.

India has also entered into joint design and development collaboration agreements related to several systems it wants for the third to fifth decades of this century such as with Russia’s Mikoyan Bureau for co-development of a 5th Generation fighter aircraft and with Israeli Aircraft Industries and its sister concern Rafael for medium range anti-missile systems.

The above pattern of acquisitions reveals that the Indian military is transforming from an essentially defensive force oriented to protect the country’s borders and coastline to one capable of extended outreach, offensive operations and force projection well beyond India’s frontiers. This has enormous significance for regional and global geo-politics and is a subject of tremendous interest for those who closely follow strategic affairs, albeit beyond the scope of this article. Of greater relevance here is the fact that most of the hardware for this new capability is being acquired through imports.

Failure of indigenization

In the 1960s and ‘70s, India’s defence policy was characterized by a more modest defensive posture and a programme of building indigenous capability in manufacture and later in design and development. India built up an extensive industrial base of Ordnance Factories, state-sector defence undertakings making aircraft, tanks, armoured and heavy transport vehicles, radar and communications equipment. Through the ‘70s and ‘80s, this base was expanded and given depth with the addition of numerous defence research laboratories. Arms exports were never given serious thought, mainly on political grounds of wanting to preserve neutrality between nations and a hint of moral pangs over profiteering from war merchandise.

However, despite a few notable successes in missiles and electronics, India never came close to meeting its declared goal of self-reliance in defence production, leave alone R&D for development of new, advanced equipment. Most objective assessments put the ‘self reliance index’ as somewhere in the 30-35% range. Today, after three to four decades of efforts to build indigenous capability through foreign collaboration and technology transfer, the implications of this failure are quite clear. India should have been in a better position to modernize its military building upon its own solid industrial manufacturing base and a reasonable capability for development of new systems, but it is not and finds itself compelled to go in for repetitive and costly cycles of imports and license production.
Over-dependence on foreign suppliers has reached dangerous proportions. It will reduce India’s bargaining power, push up prices and pressure India into compromising its independent foreign policy under pressure from supplier nations. India has had ample experience of technology denial by the US over many decades, pressure tactics by the UK on technology transfer, and acute problems in supply of spares from Russia. Aside from the national security angle, India has also not been able to acquire independent technological capability in many defence-related sectors as it has in certain strategic areas.

Many explanations are advanced for how and why India came to such a pass: Poor management, non-professional culture in state-sector defence production and research establishments, lack of accountability in an overly secretive system, and notorious delays in decision-making by the political and civil bureaucracy. Even conspiracy theories about the techno-bureaucracy who dominate decision-making, or even elements of the military involved in equipment selection processes, deliberately disrupting indigenous efforts or recommending imported equipment against equivalent Indian-made ones may have some element of truth.

New offsets policy

Against this background, the government has adopted a new policy of offsets, as has been done by many other countries. Under the new Defence Procurement Procedures announced in 2007, all import orders worth more than $60 million must be executed by spending at least 30% of the value on products and services sourced from Indian firms. In exceptional cases of high value, this could even be increased to 50%. Indian firms, and armaments majors of other countries, are now greedily eyeing the prospects of sharing about $10 billion likely to be up for grabs through offsets in just the next few years.

On the face of it, this policy could be expected to tackle the now-structural problem highlighted earlier apart from ensuring that a substantial part of the funds remain within the country. In theory, the industrial base in India would get strengthened and absorb new technologies, thus building self-reliant capabilities for the future. In practice, however, things are likely to turn out quite differently. And there are other dangerous portents too.

The offsets policy has already been diluted in important ways under pressure from the global armaments industry. Foreign suppliers have now been permitted to “bank” their offset obligations, that is, to accumulate offset provisions over two or more projects and then enter into a single sub-contract equivalent to the accumulated amount. Offset obligations can now also be transferred from one contract to another, including in the civilian sector. So Boeing could, for instance, if it won the tender to supply F/A18, avoid sub-contracting any part of the F18 manufacture but instead sub-contract manufacture of doors or other sub-assemblies for Boeing 737 passenger jets. By de-linking offsets from contract-specific obligations, the desired technology absorption in advanced defence-related technologies will not transpire. Offsets will boil down just to money and the structural problems of repetitive imports and scant self-reliance will be perpetuated.

This should not come as a great surprise when neo-liberal policies and globalization have been embraced by the Indian ruling elite. Self-reliance itself is seen by these sections as an old-fashioned idea dating back to the “bad old days”.

The defence industry in India had traditionally been dominated by the state-sector. Starting from the 1990s when India embarked on the path of liberalization, involvement of the private sector in India has been gaining momentum. In 2001, government formally decided to encourage private sector participation in defence production subject to licensing and also allowed up to 26% FDI in such firms. Over the years, even though the Indian private sector as a whole received only 9% of total military orders or around $700 million annually, a few engineering majors have emerged as important players executing sub-contracted work even in strategic areas. Given the anticipated offsets boom, there is now a scramble to set up joint venture firms with international armaments firms who are expected to bring in capital but more importantly technology and capability.


Launch of new Mahindra Special VehicleTata Advanced Systems has been set up as a joint venture (JV) with an investment of $150 million and 76% holdings by the mammoth Tata Industries and $50 million by Israel’s IAI to manufacture Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), electronic warfare systems, missiles, radar systems and security systems. Tatas have also tied up with US aviation company Sikorsky for helicopter sub-assemblies. Similarly, Indian automobile major Mahindra & Mahindra has linked up with UK’s largest and the world’s fourth largest military manufacturer British Aerospace for land-based armament systems and with a subsidiary of Italian Finmecanica for underwater systems. Engineering and construction giant Larsen & Toubro has started joint ventures with several international defence firms such as European conglomerate and Airbus manufacturer EADS Defence & Security and US aerospace major Boeing.

An orchestrated campaign is now underway by global consultancy firms such as Ernest & Young along with the leading Indian industry associations calling upon the government to increase the permissible FDI limit from 26% to 49% with some even calling for allowing 100% foreign-owned firms to be allowed into the Indian defence sector! The argument runs along lines familiar to those following the Indian liberalization story: the state sector has proved incapable of timely delivery of quality military hardware, therefore the private sector should be encouraged to step in. Maximum FDI should be encouraged because defence hardware is a risky, capital intensive business and because Indian firms do not have the requisite capability --- the irony can hardly be missed. The icing on the cake, it is further argued, will be the opening up of an export market for armaments made in India or outsourced from India, a path that India had hitherto wisely eschewed.

The present push for a major involvement of Indian private sector corporations in defence manufacture, greater FDI and partnership with prominent mostly Western defence manufacturers, all aided by the new offsets policy that emphasizes money transfers through sub-contracts rather than building of indigenous capability, are all part of a larger plan. The idea is to undermine and ultimately dismantle the Indian state-sector defence industry, which for all its weaknesses is and would be subservient to broader political goals subject to public accountability, and replace it with large private sector corporates with substantial or even controlling interests of global arms manufacturers. In such a dispensation, acquisition and upgradation of defence hardware would increasingly be driven by corporate and commercial interests, and export of armaments would become an important driver of India’s external policy. Watch this space… an incipient military-industrial complex is in the making.

D.Raghunandan
Delhi Science Forum
 

JayChennai

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Nothing beats R&D , even full TOT. Yes we have been getting TOT here and there , but what kind of R&D base do we have. We dont even have a engine testing base. We keep sending kaveri to russia to carry out the testings.

There are various reasons for the failure. Two most important being fund, and fear of failure which stopped us from taking some risks which are important in R&D. They knew if you couldnt deliver within time , the armed forces will go for a tender and buy it.

So the problem is not just our OFB or DRDO.
 
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pavanvenkatesh

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I think the main problem is our lack of expertise in core technology area's my buddy in HAL always mentions that most of the components like controllers, IC's, Adapters, Flow meters and sensors, hydraulic valves and manifolds, motors etc are all imported!! these components are used in some stage or the other in almost all military hardware without which any development is not possible this is where we should develop our capabilities as kelkar committee pointed out the DRDO should only concentrate on certain sectors like electronic & electrical systems,naval systems,space,mettallurgy & power, and concentrate on developing these sectors
Dynamic way of functioning must be implemented if any new idea or innovation is thought in any institute other then there own labs help must be given by funding there research the same applies to private companies which come with innovative inventions
 

pavanvenkatesh

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I am sure there are lots of pvt companies making those.
Yes you are correct i am not arguing that but not all components only some like adapters, motars but others like controllers and IC's are imported because of qualities and capabilites and reliabilities of these systems, mainly because these are such complex systems that it takes time to create them but the pvt companies are picking up very fast compared to PSu's so in a couple of years they will start making these items as well
just check the link
http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/23/career-if-we-succeed-we-will-make-history.htm
i found it quite encouraging
moreover my company also supplies to DRDO labs for the past 12 years trust me it is not easy
 

pavanvenkatesh

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An article by ajay shukla on his blog on MoD and A.K.Antony again interesting read
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/cost-of-antonys-halo.html
Sarojini Naidu famously observed that it cost India millions to keep Gandhi in poverty. It is harder to determine what this country pays to perpetuate Defence Minister AK Antony’s reputation for honesty, but the monetary penalty alone is thousands of crores per year.



Here’s how it adds up. Antony’s obsessive quest for unblemished weapons procurement has delayed the acquisition of artillery and anti-aircraft guns, fighters, submarines, night fighting gear and a host of equipment upgrades. With arms inflation at 15 per cent per annum, a five-year delay means that India pays twice what it should have. And when that equipment is obtained through government-to-government purchases and other single-vendor contracts, the cost is about 25 per cent more than it would have been in competitive bidding. Conservatively estimating that delays afflict just half of the defence ministry’s Rs 50,000 crore procurement budget, India buys Rs 25,000 crore worth of weaponry for 125 per cent more than what it should have paid.



Over and above that figure is the cost to national prestige and the devaluation of India’s military deterrent when — as in the wake of the 26/11 terror strikes in Mumbai — India’s armed forces are unprepared for immediate strikes. That happened on Antony’s watch.



To inconvenient questions about procurement delays, Antony declares that “India is a democracy” and “we have to ensure full transparency”. Point out to him that many democracies manage timely procurement in a transparent manner, and you will get a patronising, “Don’t worry, we are doing all that is necessary to safeguard the security of the country.”



After five years of insensibility to Antony’s disastrous custodianship of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the Congress party seems to be realising that in India’s deteriorating security environment, Antony’s functioning might leave the party with having to account for a military embarrassment. Last week, Congress party spokesperson Manish Tewari wrote an opinion piece in a national daily, arguing for all the changes that Antony has assiduously blocked during his five disastrous years in office.
Tewari called for “reforms that are visionary”; treating Indian private industry on a par with the public sector; and “drastically retooling” the Department of Defence Production. Though qualified as his personal views, the article represented growing opinion within the Congress party.
s it fair, Antony’s defenders will ask, to pin the blame entirely on him? After all, George Fernandes had publicly declared that fear of the three C’s — the CAG, the CVC and the CBI — held back MoD bureaucrats from making decisions. But Antony, like no other defence minister before him, endangers national security by his otherwise laudable fetish for probity. The message that flows out of Antony’s office and seeps through the procurement department is: cancel an ongoing procurement at the first hint of irregularity. It does not matter whether the suspicion has been planted by a rival arms dealer; a paid-for Parliamentary question; or a letter from an MP which has clearly been dictated by someone who possesses every detail of the tender in question. Just put the process on indefinite hold.

One MoD official asked me: Point out one official who has been punished for delaying the procurement of even the most vitally needed equipment. But if I am seen to move a file quickly, the defence minister’s office will ask, “What is the hurry. It seems almost as if you have a stake in that deal.”

Then there is Antony’s obvious bewilderment about the technical issues of the military, a crashing ignorance that cannot be condoned in India’s top military decision-maker. Antony’s apologists cite his preoccupation with party matters; but that is hardly convincing. His predecessor, Pranab Mukherjee, who had an immeasurably larger role in the party and national affairs, handled the MoD with skill and knowledge.
At a lunch, three years ago, I asked the Australian defence minister why his air force was buying F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters when Australia was already in line for the futuristic F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which was nearing completion. His answer: Australia’s ageing F-111 fighters would be retiring in 2010; since the F-35 project was running a couple of years late, 24 new Super Hornets would be inducted to retain Australian capability. (The Super Hornets are reaching Australia next month.)
Contrast that urgency with Antony’s “we-will-consider” approach, even though India faces a greater chance of military confrontation with Pakistan or China than Australia does with New Zealand or Papua and New Guinea.
Antony’s personal image and goals are damaging national security and the image of his party. If electoral seat adjustment and managing state-level dissidence is his particular skill, let him move out of that crucial corner office in South Block and give him a place in the Congress party office.
After Neville Chamberlain had miserably failed to rein in Hitler in 1939, British MP Leo Amery echoed the words of Oliver Cromwell in calling for Chamberlain’s head at a memorable session of the British Parliament: “You have sat here too long for any good you are doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”
 

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