Africa will not put up with a colonialist China

[SHASH2K2]

Shash,

ours is an economy which faces the challenge of deficit, a recurring phenomenon year after year, a gap we fill up by borrowing by way of grants, loans, aid money, in contract china is an economy of surplus and so they can pump in money to whatever extent that suits them but they bargain hard for they know no one including the US, given the mess they are in, cant match them, secondly we are not really known for our state run companies which are far from being competitive and cost effective in comparison the chinese are known for the exact thing, so when we deal at a state to state level india finds itself in a lot of constraints and can do only that much that our pockets allow without much luxuries and chinese atleast for now can afford to dole out all the luxuries they want to. its like this, we throw in some money, chinese can throw in thrice the amount so where do we draw the line.

on the brighter side its the private sector which has taken the lead and they have done very well but again to compete outrightly with the chinese will be tough since the chinese companies costs get subsidized by the state significantly, the same is not entirely feasible for india to do for the private sector (though the government is giving a lot of incentives which do translate to cash benefits back home in india for companies taking initiative in africa), so at some level indians are coming up but it wont be all that easy given our constraints.

the private sector if i am not mistaken has made 3 hubs (egypt, nigeria, and south africa) and through these countries they are making inroads to rest of the countries by spreading their operations, so at a state level we will hear out the aid money given, awareness programs being run etc, but it is the private sector which will really do the talking and it will wrong to say we have entirely missed it. we are there but will take time.

A brilliant post. Thanks a lot for such a good analysis of indian perspective in African continent. Hope to see some good analysis from Chinese friends .

 

[p2prada]

Something that will help further the discussion.

This gives an idea about the oil war going on between India and China. This could end up being disastrous for India if we are not able to compete with China in the long run. Heck, we could even go to war if we start a turf war in some random country like Nigeria over oil.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...to-kazakhstan-to-venezuela-oil-purchases.html

 

[amoy]

Zambian workers alienated by cultural and linguistic divide
By Simon Mundy in Maamba, Zambia

Late last year Zhu Qingping walked hesitantly towards the gate of Collum Coal Mine in Maamba, southern Zambia, greeted by the jeers of striking miners. Unable to understand English, the Chinese manager stared blankly as the miners shouted demands for money, then retreated across the dusty yard to his office.

It was a more civil encounter than occurred at Collum in October, when two managers opened fire at a group of angry workers, injuring 13. The miners gathered outside the office compound were still upset about what they say are low wages, and accuse the Chinese-owned company of ignoring labour laws.

"Our pay hasn't gone up in two years, and it's much lower than at most other mines," says Lister Mulambo, 26. "It's dangerous work but the protective clothing isn't good enough, and they don't replace it every six months like they're supposed to by law. If you die or lose a leg, they pay no compensation. If you complain, they fire you."

"The incident was a misunderstanding due to bad communication," counters Xu Jianrui, an executive at the privately owned mine. "Since then we have [doubled] salaries to Rmb2,000-Rmb3,000 ($305-$455) a month, hired three interpreters and a [Zambian] human resources manager."

Mr Xu added that the company had paid injured workers $5,000-$10,000 each in compensation.

China's investments in Africa have expanded rapidly over the past decade; its trade with the continent was expected to exceed $100bn last year. Supporters argue that the country's business-focused approach is more beneficial to Africa than western infusions of aid, widely blamed for hurting local food producers.

Chinese companies have zeroed in on Zambia's copper and coal reserves, but also have a growing presence in manufacturing and agriculture. In a country with an annual gross domestic product of just $13bn, China has injected more than $1bn, according to the Zambian Development Agency.

"The more we keep the Chinese out, the more we will stay impoverished," says Sebastian Kopulande of the Zambian International Trade and Investment Centre.

Yet many Zambians are openly hostile towards Chinese companies. "They think if they stay friendly with the government then they can ignore the law," says Consort Malumani, 25, a miner at Collum. "If you make even a small mistake, they dock your pay."

Xiao Lishan and Wu Jiuhua, who fired on the workers at Collum and were charged with attempted murder, attended a court hearing last week.

Michael Sata, leader of the opposition Patriotic Front, claims the Zambian government has turned a blind eye to Chinese breaches of labour law in exchange for political funding – an allegation denied by the embassy.

"I can't see any investor in the People's Republic of China shooting any Chinese and getting away with it," Mr Sata says. He won 30 per cent of the vote with an explicitly anti-Chinese campaign in the presidential election of 2006, a year that saw widespread attacks on Chinese-owned shops.

"At that time, a lot of Chinese were ready to leave," says Wang You, economic counsellor at the Chinese embassy in Lusaka. "But the situation is getting better. Politics is politics, and business is business."

"It is very hard for us to do business in Zambia," adds Mr Xu, the Collum executive. "The opposition party always makes a big fuss over small problems."

Rupiah Banda, Zambia's president, has been careful to avoid alienating China.

"The government views China's substantial investment as a driver of economic growth that is worth the medium-term discontent expressed by a large proportion of society," says Lisa Lewin of Business Monitor International.

Mr Wang blames the language barrier for labour problems at China Inc in Zambia. The state's ability to influence Collum Coal Mine is limited, he says, as it is privately owned and not registered in China.

Other problems stem from cultural differences. "Some [Chinese] companies told me they tried to offer payment for work during the weekends," Mr Wang says. "In China people would be more than happy to do that – but here they like to go home to enjoy their lives. The Chinese couldn't understand that."

Mr Wang rejects suggestions China is exploiting Zambia's resources; Chinese-produced coal and grain are sold almost entirely on the domestic market. While copper is exported to China in large quantities, Zambian mining officials say Chinese companies only own two big copper mines in the country – a much smaller presence than that of British or Australian companies.

"Zambia has to make a choice," argues Mr Kopulande. "Do we remain a non-industrial country for years to come or become an industrial country exporting value-added products? We must ask ourselves who is willing to bring the investment we need."

Just as China's own manufacturing sector was catalysed by large-scale foreign investment, Zambian industry could benefit from an infusion of Chinese knowledge and technology, says Rosetta Mwape, chief executive of the Zambian Association of Manufacturers.

But she adds: "The Chinese manufacturers are very secretive. None of them is a member of ZAM, although it's open to everyone"‰."‰."‰."‰[Chinese] mines only want to buy from other Chinese companies. It's a sort of cartel."

Despite simmering anger over October's shooting and labour conditions, workers do not want Collum Coal Mine to close. In a country where two-thirds of the population lives on less than $1 a day, a poorly paid job is better than none at all.

"We're not happy with the Chinese investment," says Bernard Dolopo, local representative of the Mineworkers' Union of Zambia. "But unfortunately we don't have better investors than the Chinese."

For its part, the Chinese embassy has summoned investors to discuss issues arising from the shooting at Collum. "After the incident we invited all Chinese companies in Zambia to come in for meetings and rethink what can be improved at their operations," said Fan Manjiang, the embassy's political counsellor.

 

[Ray]

Ohimalaya,

The Africans seem to have valid points as it is as per international standards.

How are the Chinese resolving this?

 

[Tshering22]

The last thing I expected is an article from British on how someone should avoid colonization . Says the largest colonial empire on earth in modern history.

OT, the article portrays the grim picture that is expected out of businesses here. It is pure business as the Chinese spokesperson put it. Our involvement in Africa is almost hush-hush compared to the massive involvement of Chinese firms. The reason is because Chinese have a strong manufacturing base. For that, they need to hunt for more and more natural resources which they are onto at breakneck speeds. We lag behind them in Africa due to a variety of annoying reasons:

- Late opening of Economy compare to Chinese: 1991 compared to 1977

- Pretense of moral high grounds on business terms which is simply not applicable; especially but a ruthlessly corrupt government at home in Delhi

- Myopic government policies on releasing red tapism and adopting a dynamic industrial approach abroad. Africa is easier for us compared to Chinese yet we lag.

- Terrible performance of Indian government firms compared to Chinese firms practising state capitalism; their government firms can give even our private ones a run for their money in terms of work efficiency & speed of work.

- Most important of all; Very weak manufacturing base full of lax governing, mismanagement, miscalculation, wrong-estimation, terrible ethics etc. Chinese have one thing that we lack terrible: leadership.

So unless we increase our manufacturing base to at least 5 times our present capacity in every sector and expand R&D base to expand our scope of producing new finished goods, there will be little incentive we can give to African countries other than our "शराफत" which in business world only is a small part respected. This also is largely to be blamed on a myopic government structure of governance that exists in our country compared to the fast, ruthless, competitive and orderly government structure (not political philosophy but structure) of Chinese that is present wherever they are irrespective of political front (whether communist or capitalist) such as China, Taiwan, Singapore and even other east Asian states like Korea and Japan.

 

[badguy2000]

Chinese use of its own labor is for two reasons. It gives them free labor as all the labour is nothing but political prisoners and it frees up their jails.
labor costs constitute a major portion of cost in any project. This makes chinese win contracts as it does not have to consider costs of labor. Not only in africa, china does this everywhere including our neighbor sri lanka.

yes, the average month salary of those Chinese "political prisoner" is 1000 USD/month,which is almost 3 times of that in CHina.

that is why some Chinese peasant workers are ready to work in Africa .

Although the salary of CHinese workers are much higher than local Africans, they are also much more efficient and handy than local africans.so the costperformance of expensive Chinese labors are still much better than cheap african labours...

that is why CHinese companies are ready to hire expensive CHinese workers ,instead of local africans..

African should rethink why African labours can not build their homeland as effeicently as CHinese labours,instead of just blaming others.....otherwise,their homeland would always be the most undeveloped drity sewer on the earth.

 

[niharjhatn]

yes, the average month salary of those Chinese "political prisoner" is 1000 USD/month,which is almost 3 times of that in CHina.

that is why some Chinese peasant workers are ready to work in Africa .

Although the salary of CHinese workers are much higher than local Africans, they are also much more efficient and handy than local africans.so the costperformance of expensive Chinese labors are still much better than cheap african labours...

that is why CHinese companies are ready to hire expensive CHinese workers ,instead of local africans..

African should rethink why African labours can not build their homeland as effeicently as CHinese labours,instead of just blaming others.....otherwise,their homeland would always be the most undeveloped drity sewer on the earth.

Prejudiced much?

The problems Africa has faced cannot be compared to anywhere else in the world. I myself am an Indian from RSA and would like to point out that it is not some 'deficiency' in africans that prevents them from developing. Colonialism, white supremacy etc coupled with some of their own ethnic struggles have prevented Africa from developing as it should.

In some contries in Africa the wars being fought have been going on for an eternity, which leads to africans migrating to other parts of the continent, especially relatively prosperous countries like RSA, which often only increases social tension.

Africa needs to get peace first before it starts to really move forward. This means stopping nations like the US and China flogging their weapons at the dictators.

 

[JustForLaughs]

"We're not happy with the Chinese investment," says Bernard Dolopo, local representative of the Mineworkers' Union of Zambia. "But unfortunately we don't have better investors than the Chinese."

well, that sucks doesnt it. foreign companies use China as a manufacturing based. low wages and workers get nothing compared to the profits the companies get. every per dollar sale Nike or w/e would get 90 cents with 10 cents going to the Chinese worker. if even.

business is business. if you want handouts go deal with charitys and other non profit organizations. even if Chinese were kind and be unusually fair, you african will still get your heads bitten off later on by western companies. whats the point?

tricycle is the same as riding a bike? learn how the game works or you will always lose.

 

[badguy2000]

Prejudiced much?

The problems Africa has faced cannot be compared to anywhere else in the world. I myself am an Indian from RSA and would like to point out that it is not some 'deficiency' in africans that prevents them from developing. Colonialism, white supremacy etc coupled with some of their own ethnic struggles have prevented Africa from developing as it should.

In some contries in Africa the wars being fought have been going on for an eternity, which leads to africans migrating to other parts of the continent, especially relatively prosperous countries like RSA, which often only increases social tension.

Africa needs to get peace first before it starts to really move forward. This means stopping nations like the US and China flogging their weapons at the dictators.

even if all other continents were to stop flogging weapons in Africa, Africans would still kill each other with knives and arrows. don't forget how many victims were massacred by knives and arrows in Rwanda and Darfur.

pre-colony Africa was the most backward continent. Africa under the rule of colonists was the most backward continent. Afrcia today is still the most backward continent.

Europe colonist didn't make Africa better,but they also didn't make Africa worse,because Africa has been always the worst. Nobody can make the worst worse.

don't just blame others. the people will never have the future ,who reject any self-examination..

 

[Ray]

Although the salary of CHinese workers are much higher than local Africans, they are also much more efficient and handy than local africans.so the costperformance of expensive Chinese labors are still much better than cheap african labours...

that is why CHinese companies are ready to hire expensive CHinese workers ,instead of local africans..

African should rethink why African labours can not build their homeland as effeicently as CHinese labours,instead of just blaming others.....otherwise,their homeland would always be the most undeveloped drity sewer on the earth.

Badguy,

Maybe used to reflect on that statement.

Does it not sound just what the Chinese accused UK and US of?

The whiteman's burden and all that has the similar refrain.

Kipling's poem "white man's burden" is a characterization for imperialism that justified the policy as a noble enterprise!!!!

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

So, Africa is a sewer?

Who is gaining from the exploitation?

China uses Africa quota and export Chinese goods as 'Made in Africa'.

Who is exploiting Africa's resources for their own gain - China.

And on top of that, you sneer at them like some old colonialist!! Or even a neo colonialist!

I am sure Hu and Wen will not be too pleased at your attitude that will put their hard work to vain!

 

[Ray]

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Beijing and troubled nations: Signals of a shift

By Geoff Dyer

Published: January 20 2011 22:03 | Last updated: January 20 2011

As the 2008 Olympics approached, China underwent a crash course in the politics of overseas investments when human rights groups accused Beijing of holding a "Genocide Games" on the grounds that its oil investments in Sudan were sustaining a scorched earth campaign in Darfur. For the Chinese leadership, however, its Sudanese headache is only just beginning.......

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About 80 per cent of Sudanese oil is in the south, but the port used to ship it abroad is in the north, fed by a pipeline. As the biggest foreign investor in Sudan, China finds itself caught in the middle of the country's visceral internal divide......

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For all its rarity, the Sudan referendum is an example of what China will increasingly face as its overseas investments expand – the diplomatic burdens of being an aspiring superpower. Chinese strategists insist that their country will not be drawn by the temptations of empire and has no desire to become a powerful outside force in African politics.

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Yet, realists would argue, it is interests rather than ideas that end up shaping the foreign policy of great powers. China's expansion into energy, resources and infrastructure across the globe is likely to take it into new entanglements where neutrality becomes ever harder to sustain and Beijing is forced to take sides and influence events.

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Charles Freeman, a China expert and former US diplomat, remarked last year that China's statements about the modesty of its international ambitions echoed isolationist sentiments that were common in the US a century ago. "The United States did not then seek to dominate or control the international state system, nor did it pursue military solutions far from its shores," he said. "In time and in reaction to events, however, America came to do both."

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China is usually strongly opposed to the break-up of multi-ethnic countries, for fear that it could encourage similar demands from its own ethnic groups, most notably in Tibet and the heavily Muslim Uighur population in Xinjiang, or encourage an independence push by Taiwan. For instance, China refused to recognise Kosovo, which declared independence from Serbia in 2007.

But as the likelihood of southern Sudanese secession has loomed, Beijing became aware that it faced hostility from an independent government in the south that would see China as the principal backer of its enemy. Many in southern Sudan view Beijing's investments during the 1990s, at a time when the civil war was raging, as an implicit intervention on the side of Khartoum.

"If they want to protect their assets, the only way is to develop a very strong relationship with the government of southern Sudan, respect the outcome of the referendum and then we will be doing business," Anne Itto, deputy head of the Sudan People's Liberation Movement, the south's leading political group, said last year.

More at:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/426c3912-24c8-11e0-a919-00144feab49a.html#axzz1DRERnWxX

Note this:

The New African State of South Sudan.

The Sudan People's Liberation Movement and Army (SPLM/A) was born. SPLA received wide support, especially from the USA Christian Fundamentalists.

http://www.gurtong.net/ECM/Editoria...690/The-New-African-State-of-South-Sudan.aspx

We are all aware of the power of these Christian fundamentalists of the USA in influencing the US Administration.

In fact, there are reports that CIA too has a role in the rebellion in Southern Sudan.

The Christian South is aligned to the West.

Therefore, China's woe since China is not only the largest beneficiary of the oil of the Oil rich South, but has also developed Sudan's oil industry!!

New approach has to be arrived at since the US will play a major role, even if indirectly.

 

[badguy2000]

Badguy,

Maybe used to reflect on that statement.

Does it not sound just what the Chinese accused UK and US of?

The whiteman's burden and all that has the similar refrain.

Kipling's poem "white man's burden" is a characterization for imperialism that justified the policy as a noble enterprise!!!!

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

So, Africa is a sewer?

Who is gaining from the exploitation?

China uses Africa quota and export Chinese goods as 'Made in Africa'.

Who is exploiting Africa's resources for their own gain - China.

And on top of that, you sneer at them like some old colonialist!! Or even a neo colonialist!

I am sure Hu and Wen will not be too pleased at your attitude that will put their hard work to vain!

well, all people who reject any self-examition and hardy work ethnic deserve such "sneer" .

BTW, the "export quotas" kept for Africans itself is one "favor" for the incompetence. Such "favor" is not one honor,but one "mercy" for the incompetence.

as for sino-afrcia trade, China takes resource and leaves infrastructure....which .African themselves can not make at all. it is trade....not "mercy".

 

[Ray]

I wish some African reads this sentiment. of Badguy.

Imperialist mentality returns to haunt Africa!!

Kiplingesque Chinese man 'burden'!

Very mercenary in outlook!

 

[badguy2000]

Note this:



We are all aware of the power of these Christian fundamentalists of the USA in influencing the US Administration.

In fact, there are reports that CIA too has a role in the rebellion in Southern Sudan.

The Christian South is aligned to the West.

Therefore, China's woe since China is not only the largest beneficiary of the oil of the Oil rich South, but has also developed Sudan's oil industry!!

New approach has to be arrived at since the US will play a major role, even if indirectly.

well, can USA provide South Sudan the necessary infrastructure and oil industry supply-chain as effeiciently and cheaply as China? I doubt it.

China's oil deal in Sudan is based on commerical principle .it can favor china and locals both.if such oil deal were to cut, nobody else on the earth can provide South Sudan the necessary infrastructure and oil industry supply-chain as effeiciently and cheaply as China.

First,all infastructures and oil industry in Sudan are built according to Chinese industry standard and based by Chinese industry supply-chains. Once CHinese engineers and workers were to retreat, nobody else,including your almighty USA, could maintain the infrastructure and oil industry without the support of CHinese industry supply-chains. That would be one economic disaster to both South Sudan and North Sudan .

Second,it is not easy to find such a big oil buyer as China...

BTW.
PLS remember that China never deliberately cooperate with "despots". China just always cooperate whoever is in the power. Unfortunately, most guys in the power of resource-abundant happen to be "despots".

 

[Ray]

well, can USA provide South Sudan the necessary infrastructure and oil industry supply-chain as effeiciently and cheaply as China? I doubt it.

The issue is not cheap or expensive.

It is strategic interest.

South Sudan has great strategic potential/

Have you not noticed how they have poured money and military aid into Pakistan?

Even though they are anti US, the Pakistan Govt can nothing until the US gives the nod!!

See Egypt!

The oil industry of Sudan will soon go the Saudi way!

Also, don't underestimate the power of the US evangelists!

The US also does not deliberately cooperate with despots. They are friendly with whoever is in power!

Why cannot the US work the Oil industry built by China? After all, it must be US copies!

 

[cw2005]

The most influential Asian in Africa, particularly former British colonies, are Indians. In Lagos, the commercial capital of Nigeria, if you visit established firm with African or European name, you might think the owner must be a Nigerian or European until you knock and enter the MD office to find an Indian sitting there. For example, the largest textile firm in Lagos was the Afprint owned by Indian. The Indians are also controlling the electronics and motor parts market. These Indians are second or third generation of those military/civil service personnel brought to this continent by their former British master. They have eventually built up a relationship with local government and military leaders and secured "Convenience" with government departments including central banks. However, most of these Indians are British subjects. I know it for I have spent 17 years in Nigeria, Ghana, Togo and Congo Kinshasa.

 

[amoy]

This thread is about China's "Neo-colonism" in Africa. But it also sets me thinking, about Chinese "work ethos" or "cultural shock" overseas, far beyond Africa (with "political incorrectness" below)

Story:
My dad's uncle was a Indonesian entrepreneur, very rich. He had to drift to Indonesia for a living after being dismissed from school for reading "Red Star over China" by Edgar Snow at class. When being asked why Chinese still preferred to stay in Indonesia despite all the persecution and insecurity he said "it's easy to make money". Why so? he answered "becoz indigenous Indonesians are lazy, whereas we're hardworking. so we prosper". During my dad's tour with him in Indonesia, once probably on the way from Bandung to Surabaya, his Chauffeur said "Boss, I have to leave now". My dad was surprised "How could he quit in the middle of the trip?". Uncle answered "that's typical of 'their' attitude towards work and life. once 'they' earn 'enough' money they just stop working and squander to enjoy themselves, till the last penny . Never deposit. No preplannng".

The above reflects a mercenary philosophy or mindset of "many" Chinese, or Chinese perception of other peoples., other cultures, with a sense of superiority underlying, at home or abroad. Probably it also sheds some light on Chinese "business" friction ongoing in Africa.

 

[Ray]

Thanks for the anecdote.

What has to be understood that Chinese, be the Mainland or Overseas, are obsessed with money. It makes them focussed and hard working.

The remainder Asians are too laid back and are happy with whatever they have.

Different priorities and very difficult to state which one of the priorities is correct.