Africa will not put up with a colonialist China

Discussion in 'China' started by Ray, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    How far is this article correct in its assessment?

    It is interesting to know who has the Chinese taken over African industry and economy?
    Has it? The article merely generalises the phenomenon.

    True China supports dictatorial and even repressive African rulers, but then China is merely doing so to gain the natural resources that it requires. Pragmatically seen, it is quite kosher, given that the West, too supports dictators and ruthless regimes.

    It is true that a Chinese manager shot down African workers in a colonialist style. That ofcourse was totally unlike a Chinese reaction and may have done immense damage to the relations with the people of that country, even if not with the government.

    True, using Chinese labour in Africa where there is no dearth of hardy people, will go against China, but then it must have been a necessity since China want to project itself as an efficient nation and gets their projects up in time. The Language barrier and the work ethos may have forced the Chinese to bank on their own labour so that projects get time bound.

    Yet, there are rumblings over the Chinese manner of functioning in Africa and that Africans are not getting their due.

    What are they is the issue.
     
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  3. SLASH

    SLASH Senior Member Senior Member

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    Everyone is in Africa for resources. There is hardly any export market for finished goods from Africa. Especially nothing that the Chinese cant make. Chinese goods are cheaper and more affordable by people in Africa. They sell and people buy. Who is to blame? As long as people keep buying the Chinese will keep manufacturing. It is up to the African nations to take an initiative and improve its trade balance.
     
  4. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Chinese use of its own labor is for two reasons. It gives them free labor as all the labour is nothing but political prisoners and it frees up their jails.
    labor costs constitute a major portion of cost in any project. This makes chinese win contracts as it does not have to consider costs of labor. Not only in africa, china does this everywhere including our neighbor sri lanka.
     
  5. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    There is very little difference between the African countries rich in minerals and oil and the Middle East. Neither have an industry worth talking about.

    It's up to the African leaders to protect their people and their industries. But if the very leaders who are supposed to protect open up their economy to China in a way that is detrimental to indigenous industries, then there is no point in criticising the Humanitarian abuses going on in Africa. The only way to counter that would be for India to join the muck and play their game or risk losing strategic depth against China and a future source of mineral supplies.

    We don't have to copy the Chinese model. We can create our own model which increases goodwill instead of focussing only on capitalistic greed. But this is the harder route.
     
  6. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    India needs to play its card well. There will always be resentment against chinese using their own workforce. If acted smartly we can change chinese advantage into biggest disadvantage. For these kind of activities all we need is go give our agencies a little bit of freedom to act against chinese intrests .
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    For poor countries, it does not matter. All they need is money. Aid, loans, low cost projects. China provides aid/loan for the project, sends all raw material (very cheap) for the projects as well as labor (free). Means the project is executed at very low cost. Poor countries have no choice but to go with the chinese.
     
  8. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Poor country will always need cheap money and so do its people. with chinese bringing in their own workforce and also not so good working conditions tables can be easily turned against Chinese businessmen. all we need to do it to just act as catalyst and lend indirect support to oppression of poors and it can be done by using much smaller amount of money than what chinese will be giving as aid and user of media to highlight cause of poors . When outsiders get jobs instead of locals resentments will always be there .
     
  9. JustForLaughs

    JustForLaughs Regular Member

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    i have read articles on this. i do not have them now, so i am hesitant to mention this.

    however, in regards to the poor conditions, this is just weakness complaining. Chinese manager would be more than happy to put Chinese in these conditions instead. i have read many quotes from Chinese managers that Chinese workers are superior to African ones.

    thats why this is very unlikely.

    "As China's global economic role increases, its labour costs will rise and its currency will appreciate, eroding its competitiveness. Might Chinese manufacturers then look to Africa as a base for production, using the facilities they have built and the hordes of workers they have been steadily exporting there?"

    its more comforting if low cost production was the only thing. truth is the productivity of the worker is also important. you can always find something to complain about. if free from poor conditions, it will be selective hiring and no jobs.


    "The descendants of slave traders and slave owners in the United States now have a black man as their president; Africa's colonisers have all been defeated and kicked out; and apartheid's proponents are now governed by those they despised and abused for generations. Unless the Chinese mend their ways, the same fate awaits them in Africa. Sun Tzu would understand that."

    half black. africa's colonisers also, as i recall, have all sorts of aid organization for Africa. i always see african children in their commercials. if Africans want a free lunch then dont do deal with countries. do it with charity. its not my place to tell an african who feels africa is being exploited by China it isnt. all i will say is it is not my issue but yours to think why africa keeps getting exploited and cant compete with non african on equal ground.
     
  10. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    All countries there are under authoritarian rule. You cannot bypass them to reach the masses there directly. it will not serve any purpose. India can only provide aid. Finance entire projects and also look at partnering them to make them self sufficient. Soft loans, and perhaps do what the chinese are doing. Send all those in prison with RI, to work in such countries.
     
  11. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    check this .
    http://stratsisincite.wordpress.com...ropean-countries-in-emerging-african-markets/

    We are also offering credits to governments and I have a feeling that we are getting more and more aggressive in protecting our intrests there . Apart from money that we will offer we offer employments to locals unlike chinese and thats an added advantage. What we need to do it that along with aid we should also advertise about other benefits. cometime we may have to spend some money on canvassing . pay some news paper houses or local leaders and see the diffrence . we need to use our cash power along with soft power.
     
  12. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    We will only lose money this way. We don't have unlimited funds to donate. China makes money out of africa ultimately. It uses its goods in building projects, and its own labor and then gives the project as a loan to the africans at very favorable terms. Long term investment and a very effective one as far as africa is concerned. India only has great goodwill among the people there, but otherwise nowhere in the picture. In our biz these days looking at how things are we say "sharafat se izzat kamai ja sakti hai, paise nahi". India has to be business minded and get a little aggressive as well.
     
  13. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    And what are the western manufacturing units doing in, say, india, china, veitnam, mexico or when those companies do takeovers in respective countries or for that matter Americans doing with the TAPI pipeline far away from their home other than ofcourse giving “employment” to locals? This is precisely how globalization works, the much hyped MiC has the western companies name to it, profits made by those firms don’t get gobbled up by the Chinese or get spent in the best interest of the Chinese either , may be the author doesn’t like it but then have a problem with the term globalization and not a country specific, china would have come up with a customized solution that best suits their practices but again it all happens under the guise of globalization and many in Africa must be liking it that more and more Chinese keep going there and keep getting invited by the same Africans who ironically don’t see this as any occupation but means to a better livelihood for themselves, their people, and possibly a better and a non-interfering future from vested interests for their country.

    Where are the mass protest rallies if all this was to be hated and was to bring about resentment?

    World then seems to have a problem that Chinese handed out more aid money than the world bank, if so why not better it than complain about it?

    Complaining and cribbing wont help as the world order changes, but finding a solution around the problem will, and yes Africa is up for grabs, grab it at the best possible price for nothing is more sweeter than the money, have it, spend it wisely, which is what the Chinese are doing.

    Now dont envy other’s smartness!
     
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  14. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    I think I was misunderstood. By using the term aid I menst to provide some kind of financial support/ incentive to secure business in African continent be it direct money/soft loan or some investment there . This is a game that we are being forced to play . we need to Play this game to secure our future . country of billions needs huge resources and Africa is only destination. We need to use huge amount of goodwill in African continent along with the money . We cannot match China in terms of money so we need to use unconventional methods like demonizing china . Its a lot cheaper option as well.
     
  15. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Demons already rule those countries, most of them atleast. What are you going to achieve by demonizing others? The hard fact is that we have to compete. China uses the policy of everything is fair in love and war. We have to climb down the moral high ground and start doing something. Otherwise we will not be there in the frame. We might already be not... China has long stolen the march.
     
  16. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    shash,

    i have seen the pakistanis react and to my utmost surprise these people remain least worried about a huge import bill or a foreign country taking over their reserves or their own companies being neglected and overlooked in favor of an overseas company, all that ever mattered to them was if they were getting what they wanted and may be that is what one gets to see in africa as well which is as corrupt as pakistan if not more (isnt pakistan one of the most corrupt countries?), may be those people also want the end result than worry about how it all happens and gets delivered.

    for a realization to come takes a long time, you never know what the thinking is, all that we read and hear are western interpretations which have the requisite spins.

    lastly india is again no saint either, ethopia is to offer 380,000 hectares of land for cultivation and they are ready to give almost whole of it to indian companies if they bid well (most definitely 50[+]% of it), now come to think of it, we are going to someone else's place, grabbing their land, and the produce will be shipped back to india or exported to other destinations, but that is how it all works, its just that the author doesnt seem to like what the chinese are doing but then there is nothing to say he likes what the indians are doing there as well. you could very well have an article on india being criticized by the very same guardian.
     
  17. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    TR I am not saying that we are saint and should follow policy of mahatma Gandhi . All that I am trying to say is that we need to be aggressive to protect our national intrests. We donot have money compared to china so we need to use all possible means to get what we need .
    There are numerous occasions where china literally muscled us out of major projects by using money . We didn't do anything to protect our interests. We need to use sam, dam, dand and bhed to protect our interests. Regading business model in Africa I feel like we should be willing to accommodate local interests while trying to do business with them. That will be beneficial for us in long terms . chinese can murder anyone in pakistan and get away with it because they are considered as friends . Similarly we need to build stronger ties with those countries and ready to support them not only with money but with other means as well. Give jobs to locals and even if you are not do some propoganda about it , lets Beat chinese in their own game .
     
  18. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Shash,

    ours is an economy which faces the challenge of deficit, a recurring phenomenon year after year, a gap we fill up by borrowing by way of grants, loans, aid money, in contract china is an economy of surplus and so they can pump in money to whatever extent that suits them but they bargain hard for they know no one including the US, given the mess they are in, cant match them, secondly we are not really known for our state run companies which are far from being competitive and cost effective in comparison the chinese are known for the exact thing, so when we deal at a state to state level india finds itself in a lot of constraints and can do only that much that our pockets allow without much luxuries and chinese atleast for now can afford to dole out all the luxuries they want to. its like this, we throw in some money, chinese can throw in thrice the amount so where do we draw the line.

    on the brighter side its the private sector which has taken the lead and they have done very well but again to compete outrightly with the chinese will be tough since the chinese companies costs get subsidized by the state significantly, the same is not entirely feasible for india to do for the private sector (though the government is giving a lot of incentives which do translate to cash benefits back home in india for companies taking initiative in africa), so at some level indians are coming up but it wont be all that easy given our constraints.

    the private sector if i am not mistaken has made 3 hubs (egypt, nigeria, and south africa) and through these countries they are making inroads to rest of the countries by spreading their operations, so at a state level we will hear out the aid money given, awareness programs being run etc, but it is the private sector which will really do the talking and it will wrong to say we have entirely missed it. we are there but will take time.
     
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    This is an important issue that should not be lost sight of.

    Exporting Chinese goods made in Africa and taking advantage of the African allotted quota!

    Also

    A debt ridden Africa will be somewhat hamstrung and would have to toe the Chinese line!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  20. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Although it's about 'business' and 'competititon,

     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Could the Chinese posters give us an idea as to how the Chinese operate their Projects - finances, staffing, security, facilities for the African workers and those for the Chinese workers, incentives etc?

    While the western media does air misgivings, what is it in real terms from the Chinese point of view?
     

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