Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bugti

Rage

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This document is rather instructive.


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...xRhWgJ&sig=AHIEtbSs88Dp5ZCByxFot46s-5REJCJDFw


I think, Agnostic Muslim, Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan over the Durand Line and Pashtunistan provides a useful insight into Pakistan's own relationship with India vis-à-vis Kashmir. Ever since Pakistan's inception, Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan has centered around one critical issue: Pashtunistan, just as Pakistan's relationship with India has centered around Kashmir. Afghanistan's contention, as it stands, is that the Durand Line was (and is) invalid as it was drawn under duress. Soon after partition, Pakistan found that it was necessary to invade Balochistan and seize it, Balochistan having formerly never been a part of British India and having rejected annexure to the newly created state of Pakistan on the grounds of common Muslimhood, in order to disguise the fact that where the Durand Line Agreement ought to have been a Tripartite agreement between independent Baluchistan, Afghanistan and British India, it was in fact only a bi-partisan agreement between British India and Afghanistan that illegitimately excluded Baluchistan despite encompassing its boundaries; and to maintain in its eyes, and the world's, the validity under int'l legal norms of the Durand Line agreement. Legally, Afghanistan's claim to the validity of Pakistan's ownership over Pashtunistan is limited, since uti possidetis juris (succession of binding multilateral agreements between colonial powers to independent states) does apply. Though Afghanistan's demand for the invalidity of the Durand line and for the Pashtuns' right to be able to secede and choose their own state, were framed as a support for Pashtunistan's independence, as in the case of Kashmir, these demands were in fact irredentist, since an independent Pashtunistan would probably not likely exist, being a fragile and defenseless state, and would inevitably cede to Afghanistan. Just as in the case of many Indian politicians, most of Afghan's leaders too thought the new state of Pakistan wouldn't survive, and so, have essentially staked their claim to an area under Pakistan's current sovereignty should the state of Pakistan break up.

Again, the claim is compounded by being based on a prophecy, that necessitates self-fulfillment: Afghanistan's strategic interests are served by the pursuit of territory under Pakistan's current ownership vis-a-vis it's landlockedness and access to the sea, just as Pakistan's strategic interests over geostrategic leverage and water resources are served by the pursuit of Kashmir. So, to pursue that strategic interest in legitimate form, a prophecy must be fulfilled: that the state that occupies it will inevitably break-up due to it's barbaric and demonic rule and will cease to hold control over the minds and hearts of the people with whom this state is thought to identify; and this is achieved by the painting of a picture of permanent turmoil in which it sits. Hence, to pursue that claim, less than a decade after independence, Afghanistan sent regular troops, as well as Afghan tribesmen, who crossed the border into Pakistan 30 miles northeast of Chaman (see the similiarity? ), where they got repelled by Pakistani troops after six days of fighting. For it's part, Afghanistan said it had no involvement in the attack, which it claimed comprised exclusively of Pashtun tribesmen agitating for an "independent" (sic.) Pashtuni-stan. Six decades later, given Afghanistan's penchant to become a world harbour zone for terrorists and it's continuous use of irregular forces dressed as tribesmen, those claims seem less than credible.

See what the world is seeing?

Tit-for-tat. As someone said once, Karma is indeed a bitch.
 
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Sindhifreedomfighter

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why shall we be called terrorists? Is demanding one's own rights a terrorism? Is demanding for our own historical country a terrorism? If our elders were betrayed by the cunning MA Jinnah n Liaqat Ali khan and their successors, so now setting the thing right, is terrorism? If some ----ing shit and mess(pakistan) is created due to some personal egos of MA Jinnah & Nehru, is it wrong to clean up all the mess and set right the historical realities?
Sindhudesh shall be created. AND i believe in the creation of sindhudesh just as i believe in the rising of the sun tomorrow.
 

mikhail

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So I take it you were cheering the 9/11 and Mumbai attacks ....
no mate we are cheering for the Sindhudesh and Balochistan freedom fighters since they are fighting for their independence from the tyrranical rule of Pakistan.on the other hand the people behind 9/11 and Mumbai attacks are nothing but animals who were supported by the Pakistani govt. on every step.
 

The Messiah

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Time for afghans to take pashto land, balochs to get independent and sindhis to break away.

Then paki punjabis will be land locked and we must enforce a no-fly zone over pakistan meaning no flights can go outside it so everyone stays there only including paki chest thumpers on net who would usually be the first ones to run. We should also check every ship in the arabian sea to see they dont try to run like rats. Stop all trade and let them rot for eternity. An emp explosion over them would also be nice, no gadgets should work and they can live in caves. We'd cage it and make it an international zoo for all to see how filthy these subhumans are.
 

mikhail

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Time for afghans to take pashto land, balochs to get independent and sindhis to break away.

Then paki punjabis will be land locked and we must enforce a no-fly zone over pakistan meaning no flights can go outside it so everyone stays there only including paki chest thumpers on net who would usually be the first ones to run. We should also check every ship in the arabian sea to see they dont try to run like rats. Stop all trade and let them rot for eternity. An emp explosion over them would also be nice, no gadgets should work and they can live in caves. We'd cage it and make it an international zoo for all to see how filthy these subhumans are.
mate this is quite a possible scenerio as both Balochistan and Sindh are fighting for their independence from Pakistan.on the other hand the Pashtuns of the NWFP and FATA are also quite pissed off due to the step-motherly attitude shown by Pakistan to them.so this is our chance to break off Pakistan into atleast four pieces(namely Balochistan,Sindhudesh,Pakhtunistan and pakjubistan)!:cool2:
 

IBSA

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Time for afghans to take pashto land, balochs to get independent and sindhis to break away.

Then paki punjabis will be land locked and we must enforce a no-fly zone over pakistan meaning no flights can go outside it so everyone stays there only including paki chest thumpers on net who would usually be the first ones to run. We should also check every ship in the arabian sea to see they dont try to run like rats. Stop all trade and let them rot for eternity. An emp explosion over them would also be nice, no gadgets should work and they can live in caves. We'd cage it and make it an international zoo for all to see how filthy these subhumans are.
You lacked to say India annex PoK, including Gilgit-Baltistan, for reunify all Kashmir state.

With Gilgit-Baltistan India can make border with Wakhan Curridor, in Afghanistan, and surpass its regional isolation. Furthermore, India cut off any territorial contact between Pakistan and China.

Gilgit-Baltistan suffers serious human rights violations on Paks hands, and they will not hesitates to get out from Pakistan.
 

SATISH

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Has Afghanistan recognized Pakistan as a country?
 

Sindhifreedomfighter

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mate this is quite a possible scenerio as both Balochistan and Sindh are fighting for their independence from Pakistan.on the other hand the Pashtuns of the NWFP and FATA are also quite pissed off due to the step-motherly attitude shown by Pakistan to them.so this is our chance to break off Pakistan into atleast four pieces(namely Balochistan,Sindhudesh,Pakhtunistan and pakjubistan)!:cool2:
Sindhudesh and Balochistan shall certainly be created. Break up of Pakistan is as certain and definite as rising of the sun tomorrow..
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

Issue don't needs any study because its the line recognized by the same Govt. of British India that Recognized the Durand Line. Accept it or Not Pakistan will never come out of its double-thinking syndrome.
How exactly do you interpret my comment of not knowing enough about the McMahon line to offer an opinion into some sort of 'double thinking syndrome'?

Perhaps you could point me to a thread or source on the subject that I could read and subsequently form an opinion that I might share with you.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

I take it then you are probably not aware of your government's stand and past actions in that context?
I apologize for the late response - you are correct, I am not aware of the Pakistani government's position on the McMahon line.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

Afghanistan refuses to recognize the Durand Line because this border was established by the British imperialism, so it isn't the very border of Afghanistan since it leaves a lot of pashtuns outside of their very country.

Firstly, culprits are the British, and secondly to Pakistan that didn't accepts to deal its borders since it born.
If Afghanistan believes it has a legal case to make about the Durand Line, then it is free to raise the issue in the UN or any other international platform that is appropriate. However, the facts are that the UN and majority of the international community accept the Durand Line as the international border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan is not responsible for Afghan tantrums over this issue and Pakistan does not have to 'deal' with anything on this border - it is the Afghans that have to accept reality and the fact that their rulers made poor decisions and agreed to the Durand Line as the international border.

The only culprits here are the Afghans themselves, and it is their historic hostility towards Pakistan and their continued illegal claims on Pakistani territory that have caused Pakistan to attempt to influence domestic Afghan affairs in order to safeguard Pakistani national security.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

I don't think Sindudesh freedom fighters can be called terrorists.
What would you call a group deliberately targeting civilians/non-combatants?

I make that distinction even when it comes to the actions of Palestinian/Kashmiri/Afghan insurgents - deliberate attacks on civilians/non-combatants constitute terrorism.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

This document is rather instructive.


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...xRhWgJ&sig=AHIEtbSs88Dp5ZCByxFot46s-5REJCJDFw


I think, Agnostic Muslim, Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan over the Durand Line and Pashtunistan provides a useful insight into Pakistan's own relationship with India vis-à-vis Kashmir. Ever since Pakistan's inception, Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan has centered around one critical issue: Pashtunistan, just as Pakistan's relationship with India has centered around Kashmir. Afghanistan's contention, as it stands, is that the Durand Line was (and is) invalid as it was drawn under duress. Soon after partition, Pakistan found that it was necessary to invade Balochistan and seize it, Balochistan having formerly never been a part of British India and having rejected annexure to the newly created state of Pakistan on the grounds of common Muslimhood, in order to disguise the fact that where the Durand Line Agreement ought to have been a Tripartite agreement between independent Baluchistan, Afghanistan and British India, it was in fact only a bi-partisan agreement between British India and Afghanistan that illegitimately excluded Baluchistan despite encompassing its boundaries; and to maintain in its eyes, and the world's, the validity under int'l legal norms of the Durand Line agreement. Legally, Afghanistan's claim to the validity of Pakistan's ownership over Pashtunistan is limited, since uti possidetis juris (succession of binding multilateral agreements between colonial powers to independent states) does apply. Though Afghanistan's demand for the invalidity of the Durand line and for the Pashtuns' right to be able to secede and choose their own state, were framed as a support for Pashtunistan's independence, as in the case of Kashmir, these demands were in fact irredentist, since an independent Pashtunistan would probably not likely exist, being a fragile and defenseless state, and would inevitably cede to Afghanistan. Just as in the case of many Indian politicians, most of Afghan's leaders too thought the new state of Pakistan wouldn't survive, and so, have essentially staked their claim to an area under Pakistan's current sovereignty should the state of Pakistan break up.
The article you linked to endorses the Pakistani position that the Durand Line is the legitimate and internationally recognized border:

"From a legal perspective, Afghanistan's claim about the illegitimacy of its border with Pakistan was rather weak.
Though Afghanistan claimed that the border had been drawn under duress, it had in fact confirmed the demarcation of this international frontier on multiple occasions,
including in agreements concluded in 1905, 1919, 1921, and 1930"


The article also supports the Pakistani position, and the argument I made earlier, that Pakistan's attempts to influence domestic Afghan affairs have been the result of Afghan hostility towards Pakistan dating back to 1947 (starting at page 41 of the text).
 

Rage

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

@Agnostic Muslim,

Please read the document entirely and carefully. I think that you will find it says exactly what I have said: that Afghanistan's de jure claim to the recusancy of the Durand line is [I[illegitimate[/I]: "Legally, Afghanistan's claim to the [in]validity of Pakistan's ownership over Pashtunistan is limited since uti possidetis juris (succession of binding multilateral agreements between colonial powers to newly formed independent states) does apply". But, that its claim to the invalidity of the agreement that constituted the Durand Line and hence, of Pakistan's stance of continued sanctity of the Durand Line, holds: "[T]he Durand Line was (and is) invalid as it was drawn under duress: where the Durand Line Agreement ought to have been a Tripartite agreement between independent Baluchistan, Afghanistan and British India (that did not include Balochistan at the time), it was in fact only a bi-partisan agreement between British India and Afghanistan that illegitimately excluded Baluchistan despite encompassing its boundaries": in other words, that Pakistan did not inherit a major portion of the Durand Line (as claimed) upon annexing Balochistan, because Balochistan was never signatory to it.

Once again, Afghanistan's claim to the recusancy of the Durand Line is illegitimate: under the international legal principle of [I[uti possidetis juris[/I], once it signed the Agreement establishing the Durand Line, it cannot call it [I[illegitimate[/I]. But, its claim to the invalidity of the agreement holds: because the Agreement was supposed to have been a Tri-partite agreement that recorded the explicit consent of three parties for it to have been a valid agreement under the law of international succession, but that it was, in fact, only a bi-partisan agreement between a captious Afghanistan and an equally wary British India that excluded the third. The Durand Line is not illegitimate (as some Pakistanis claim Afghans claim): because it is the de facto border inherited under uti possidetis juris. The Durand Line Agreement, to be valid, was supposed to have been drawn between three parties: it is invalid (as Afghans claim) because it was drawn between two.

Further, it also states, as I have stated in my nuanced argument, that while Afghanistan's claim to representation in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and of a referendary resolution to its ownership (as proceeding from its claim to the invalidity of the Durand Line) is based upon the idea of a common (Pashtun) nationalism, ignoring the legitimacy and applicability (since it signed it and inherited it under uti possidetis juris) of the Durand Line Agreement, it is in fact irredentist: "Afghanistan's demand for the invalidity of the Durand line and for the Pashtuns' right to be able to secede and choose their own state, were framed as support for Pashtunistan's independence, as in the case of Kashmir, these demands were in fact irredentist, since an independent Pashtunistan would probably not likely exist, being a fragile and defenseless state, and would inevitably cede to Afghanistan". Here, I have drawn analogy to Pakistan's claim to Kashmir and of a referendary resolution to ownership based on the claim of a common (Muslim) nationalism, ignoring the legitimacy and applicability of the Indian Independence Act, that called for the full and final resolution of ownership by a territory's lawful ruler. Here, Pakistanis claim that the clause of: "legal resolution in consultation with the wishes of constituents" applies, ignoring however that the clause was a mere obiter dicta, non-obligatory to the ruler in question. And to the fact that Pakistan's claim to Kashmir is, in fact, irredentist: for a wide variety of reasons (water, geo-strategic, etc.)

I've also drawn parallels between Afghanistan's invasion of KPK (by tribals and regular infantrymen) on September 3, 1950 with the aim of forcing the other player's (Pak's) hand and Pakistan's invasion of Kashmir (by tribals and regular infantrymen) on October 22, 1947 with the aim of forcing the other players' (India's) hand. Both were repulsed quickly by the other players, and resulted in an outcome that could never force the situation in the attacking party's favor. Both also resulted in the alienation of those people's, and eventually in the creation of militant, secessionist movements, often fostered from across the border, that, six decades later, did more to harm the countries that fostered them themselves.

Hence, the last line in my comment: Karma is indeed, a b!tch.
 
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Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

@Rage

If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the Afghan position is that the Durand Line is invalid by virtue of not being a tripartite agreement between Afghanistan, British India and Balochistan, however, from what I have read, Balochistan was under British suzerainty at the time the Durand Agreement was signed (1893-94):

"... he was able to conclude with Khan Khudardad Khan of Kalat the treaty of 1876, which brought Kalat under the British sovereignty and provided stronger political control. To consolidate the territorial extension already made, Baluchistan was made a separate agency under an agent to the Governor General."

British Empire: The Map Room: Asia: Baluchistan

With respect to Pakistan's position on Kashmir, Pakistan does not officially support an option for Kashmiri independence and neither do the UNSC Resolutions on Kashmir. And while you argue that Pakistan ignored 'the legitimacy and applicability of the Indian Independence Act, that called for the full and final resolution of ownership by a territory's lawful ruler', you ignore the fact that India herself followed the same path in invading and annexing Junagadh, whose accession to Pakistan under the Independence Act was clear to India, as seen by the diplomatic cables sent by India to Pakistan protesting the accession.
 
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Virendra

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

The 1876 treaty only allowed the British government to mediate Baloch tribal disputes, and lease Quetta valley to establish a military cantonment.
In Baluchistan the British priority was to control the highway from Quetta to Taftan, they secured it, no more no less.
British India Govt. was only watching Baluchistan (to protect its strategic interests) and not ruling it at ground zero. The baluch were sovereign and the British never occupied Baluchistan as its Rulers.
What I don't get is, how could the British fool the Afghan rulers into thinking that Baluchistan was not a required party for negotiations of the Durand line treaty?

Regards,
Virendra
 

Tolaha

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

Why are we having a thread title that refers to Sindhudesh fighters as terrorists? Fix it up and Agno for one, would surely understand. In the site that Agno was a mod earlier, they had a distinction of good terrorists and bad terrorists. So as per them, if the Kashmiris killed Indians, then it cannot be termed as terrorism. When this is the case, the Sindhudesh folks should not be termed as terrorists as suggested in the title of this thread.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: Afghanistan Sheltering Taliban and Sindhudesh Terrorists, after Bu

The 1876 treaty only allowed the British government to mediate Baloch tribal disputes, and lease Quetta valley to establish a military cantonment.
In Baluchistan the British priority was to control the highway from Quetta to Taftan, they secured it, no more no less.
British India Govt. was only watching Baluchistan (to protect its strategic interests) and not ruling it at ground zero. The baluch were sovereign and the British never occupied Baluchistan as its Rulers.
What I don't get is, how could the British fool the Afghan rulers into thinking that Baluchistan was not a required party for negotiations of the Durand line treaty?

Regards,
Virendra
Even if you take the position that the Treaty of 1876 did not result in British Suzerainty over the Baloch, and therefore did not grant the British the ability to conduct foreign affairs on behalf of Kalat/Balochistan, the subsequent Province of British Balochistan that was established through the lease/conquest of certain Baloch territories largely disconnects Kalat from Afghanistan and would therefore allow the British to negotiate the Baloch-Afghan border as part of the more comprehensive Durand Agreement:



The districts of British Balochistan:

Chaman
Fort Sandeman (now Zhob)
Kalat (Kelat)
Killa Abdullah
Killa Saifullah
Mach
Quetta
Pishin
Sibi
Turbat
 

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