Affect of Rafale aquistion on Air Force Capabilities

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by satishbharatiya, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. satishbharatiya

    satishbharatiya New Member

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    My thoughts

    The decision of the Indian government to buy 36 Rafales will cost between $7 billion to $11 billion. Estimating the service life of rafale to be 20 years and estimating he cost of maintenance to be 3 times the cost of acquisition, lets assume the cost of total acquisition and maintenance to be $35 Billion. This aquisition will wipe out half the fleet of the Tejas, like the acquisition of F-22 has decreased the numbers of fighter planes in the USAF. Rafale has a twin engined fighter will cost more for a hour of flight, so the running costs for the rafale will also be high.This will affect pilot training as funds are fungible and IAF will cut the cost on training and acquisition of other assets. Rafale will also spend more time in maintenance due to twin engines.Funds needed for endogenous fighter will aslo get affected. Rafale overall will be verybad for the IAF.
     
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  3. Harinath

    Harinath Regular Member

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    I think Rafale acquisition is a dumb idea. We must have gone MRCA with Gripen with full TOT and as soon as we got TOT we must have integrated that technologies into out Tejas MK1, 2, and even in AMCA that way we would be able to have common spares in planes which would affect positively for our air force in maintenance and cost way. Moreover I am not confident that Rafale acquisition will happen after looking at Modi style of working.
     
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  4. guru-dutt

    guru-dutt Regular Member

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    Rafle deal is on and it might get OK signal at 8 billion but i guess since USA is ready we should from day one should have taken land based version of F/A 18 Advanced super hornet as there is nothing owt there as potent and fighting fit as a advanced super hornet 6 squads of advanced super hornets and two squads of its growler series would make chinkies and porkies cream there pants forget challenging india whats more its naval version has prooved its self beyond any doughts in almost every theater and would make a great complement for INS Vishal
     
  5. Harinath

    Harinath Regular Member

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    I think doing such serious business with US is unsafe, if we go to war and US does not like that, it may stop supply of spares at that time. They are not ready do any serious TOT. Moreover F/A 18 is very old platform, would it be as good as recently developed planes?.
     
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  6. guru-dutt

    guru-dutt Regular Member

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    well US wants to retain control of asia pacific and the olny way it can do is to do what it was always reluctant and that was giving india its due role in this theater or it knows its china all the way hence it wont do any thing stupid this time as it dose not have plan B,C or XYZ as for old platform well thats just another rumour by IAF and arms lobby there is no machine as good and leathel as F18 right now ... in short rafale is sexy while hornet is Fit & leathel
     
  7. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    Engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri by 10%. let's blow whole budget on it. :pound::balleballe:
     
  8. Harinath

    Harinath Regular Member

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    Sexy, let others take it, We want to be fit and lethal, after all sexiy will fall for fit and lethal :rofl::rofl::rofl:
    What I mean to say is we need fit and lethal but homemade, that is awesome :balleballe:

    36 Rafael at whooping 10 billions dont know what impact it has on IAF but what impact would that 10 billions would have in next 10 years if spent on R&D?
     
  9. Harinath

    Harinath Regular Member

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    do you mean 10% worse by power?
     
  10. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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  11. Nuvneet Kundu

    Nuvneet Kundu Senior Member Senior Member

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    All your assumptions are incorrect and therefore the inferences which you have drawn from those assumptions are even more wrong.

    Firstly, it's not just planes that we are buying, it has been repeatedly mentioned, that there is some sort of a package deal whereby they will also provide armaments (MBDA, MICA, google it), they will also provide assembly line and the whole maintenance kit, they will provide training to people who will do the maintenance, they will provide some ToT, plus there are some geostrategic concessions that France will make. You should account all of that when you are considering what we are getting, especially the concessions.

    Secondly, Tejas already has 240 orders as per Wikipedia. I don't see how 36 planes will wipe out 240 orders that have already been placed and paid for? Don't cook up your own facts. Maintenance of French fighters has also been exponentially less than Russian parts. Not to mention, they have provided proper kits so that we could maintain Mirage 2000 very well, unlike Russia which deliberately blocked spares supply.

    Thirdly, not all training happens on Rafales, there are trainer jets, each pilot goes through 3 types of jet trainers, plus there are simulators. The twin engine config might cost more but it also delivers more on the battle field, it will allow us to strike high value targets deep inside enemy territory and the cost of operation is minimal compared to the billions of $ worth of damage that it will cause in war. Not to mention, our economy will be ~6 Trillion in 10 years. We can afford this. Don't apply your street jugad math to military financial matters. 2 engines are costly than one engine, really? that's your logic?

    This 36 Rafale deal is the best possible compromise between price, lethality and our dreams of indigenous production. This is a stop gap solution which will give us some breathing time to get our indigenous project back on their legs. By the time the last Rafale is inducted, our Tejas and AMCa will have reached FOC status.
     
  12. guru-dutt

    guru-dutt Regular Member

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    well that is what MP & NaMo have said to IAF and MOD as frenchies dont want to give any relevent technology though if they play fair there is at least 126 requirement for air force and 54 for navy but looks like frenchies have got way to greedy after egypt and qutar gave order for rafales the plan sold by Namo to air force was 36 french built and at least 126 made in india under MII programme but frenchies now want eiother the ammount they asked or all rafales made in france only rest keep speculationg looks like this deal just might go the MRCA deal way and we just might go for Mig35 with new engines and a Israeli AESA & weapons + all the latest russian as if we do that russians just might sweeten the deal for PAKFA & FGFA & S400
     
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  13. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    Rafale (if we are buying with AESA) armed with Ramjet BVR Meteor will outclass every 4++ aircraft in Asia and 36 alone would reduced the gap between PLAF and IAF to a great extent.36 Rafale is enough for small skirmish in Arunanchal.

    But Russian would surely lean towards Pakis and if PAK FA deal wouldn't materialise then we can kiss goodbye to S 400 and Russians ends up giving SU - 35 to Pak, which every paki pray with their 5 time Namaz.
     
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  14. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Rafale's bill alone is sending ripples everywhere, let's not add Meteor to it, Meteor per unit will cost upwards of over 2-3 million euros. Rafale if it actually is acquired will be armed with MICA-RF/IR ( we have enough stock) for now and then integrated with Astra MK-2 as this is a requirement. Meteor won't come in the Indian context.

    S-400 deal will go through, so will PAKFA. 36 Rafale won't get you jack against China, even in the French AF Rafale availability is around 60%, so we can expect the same in India i.e only around 22 aircraft will be available at given time, good enough for some deep strikes but Tibet is no cake walk, the area is littered with low level SAMs, VSHORADS, AA guns etc.

    Instead of wasting 11 billion on this deal, just buy another 3-4 Sqds of Super MKI, order the rest as LCA MK-1As.
     
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  15. guru-dutt

    guru-dutt Regular Member

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    Thing is IAF shot itself in the foot by going for 40 million $$s uprade per plane on M2K and dassault knows IAF wants rafale at any cost hence they are asking more than twice the price and thats not gonna happen no matter how much IAF cries as no matter how good is rafale its still a 4.5+ gen fighter jet and for that price we can have 5 Mig35s or 3 FA-18EF tell me is rafle still a good deal ... looks more like a dead deal as french presisdednt himself had said
     
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  16. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    What's is the point of buy 36 Rafale if it's not coming it with best weapon Package, a toothless $10 ~ billion tiger !

    Rafale is coming, there is no going back now, it would be better if IAF gets the best package on par with France, we already leg behind in BVR arena Meteor can't be compared with anything in service with PLAF although their SD 10A is said to have a range 70 - 100 km.Tell us why Meteor is is unfit for Indian context ?

    As for PAK FA and S 400 is only a pipe dream as of now even if the deal materialise the 1st PAK FA won't be inducted before 2022 and S 400 before 2020.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  17. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    Mig 35 with AESA would've been a better alternative than a Rafale,i think govt selected Rafale just to give a signal to Russians and diversify and reduce the dependence on Russians.

    Also this Rafale deal will successfully ends the Paki dream of buying French avionics.
     
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  18. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    F 16 would have been a good choice also with full TOT, but IAF wanted the best jet not the most effective jet .IAF should know that nation pocket are not that deep.Like in the cost of Mirage upgrade we can get new jet like gripen .The budget must better manage in the MOD.
     
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  19. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    I've heard some where that the reason for not selecting F 16 being a 3 decade old air craft with a limited upgrade capability in future compared with MMRCA (Rafale) will serve in IAF for 2040 or beyond.

    Secondly Pak already operating F 16 would know all about it.If we had selected Mig 35, we would've have AESA and 50 aircraft ready by 2020 including S 400.
     
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  20. FRYCRY

    FRYCRY Regular Member

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    what's so special about rafale :p
     
  21. aliyah

    aliyah Regular Member

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    there are 1000 things in any deal some are disclosed in public some are not......e.g Russian attached s400 with fgfa. so stop thinking that govt is idiot n ur the only smartest person in country
     
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