Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft is Perfect Solution for India’s 5th Generation Fighter Problem

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,498
Likes
16,938
Country flag
AMCA is only solution for the India’s 5th generation fighter problem. PM Modi must clear AMCA project immediately. Since Russia demanding 7 billion dollar for FGFA development. We must cancel FGFA project and go for AMCA. We must rope in Boeing or Lockheed Martin for development of AMCA. We must also rope in private companies Tata, Mahindra and Larsen Turbo etc. For Strategic reason we must procure 36 F 35A from USA and put rest of the money in the AMCA development. Ingenious radar Uttam is under development and will be operational on Tejas MK 2. We must negotiate GE F414 up trust engine for AMCA or develop up trust ingenious engine with help of France, USA, and UK. We must develop these AMCA is 8 years’ time and induct in Air Force and Navy in 2028. Private companies must be involved in to speed up development. We must start online campaign and bring notice to PMO. Already AMCA prototype design looking like F 22 Raptor.

We must develop develope 3 three prototypes of AMCA one for air force and another navy. The two prototypes of navy one will Stobar aircraft and another must be Catobar aircraft. By deploying Astra beyond visual range missile, laser guided bomb and brahmos missile will be deadly combo. At least 400 AMCA must be inducted in air force and 100 must inducted in navy. Tata must build AMCA aircraft instead of HAL because lazy and very slow them already delay Tejas induction. Now I have head nearly 4 Lakh employees of Government defense organization are going on strike. I sincerely hope that they don’t delay Tejas production. Tejas production must given to Tata or Mahindra. AMCA is a India’s future Aeronautical development we must not lost opportunity in the case Harut India's first fighter aircraft.

Note:

Above statements written by me is my own and it is not copied or posted from any other websites or artilces.
 
Last edited:

A chauhan

"अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l"
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
9,504
Likes
22,477
Country flag
AMCA must be started but cancellation of FGFA ? Will have to think twice.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
We must start focus on AMCA and cancel FGFA project
Cancellation of FGFA will push us 10 years back even with AMCA. They wanted to use the experience of co development with AMCA. We have already devoted a lot of time and resources in FGFA that calling it off now will not be beneficial to us in any form.

We must Take a stand and make Russia stick to the commitments and promises made.

AMCA must be started but cancellation of FGFA ? Will have to think twice.
AMCA is in a way on drawing board. cancellation of FGFA will be a bad choice to make.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,969
AMCA must be started but cancellation of FGFA ? Will have to think twice.
Mark my words, If we buy foreign 5th gen jet than IAF will never be interested in Indian made 5th gen jet. FGFA will milk us dry and IAF will drag their feet on AMCA project. IAF will make up 100 issues and say how AMCA doesn't meet their requirements and we need more FGFA for "Two front War". Sometimes to achieve something big we have to take strong measures.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
Mark my words, If we give them foreign 5th gen jet than IAF will never be interested in Indian made 5th gen jet. FGFA will milk us dry and IAF will drag their feet on AMCA project. They will make up 100 issues and say how it doesn't meet their requirements. Sometimes to achieve something big we have to take strong measures.
AMCA will not be reality till 2030-35, by then our requirements will grow and the world will also progress and have better aircrafts.
Yes, IAF has the motto of having everything imported but i started having some faith in the current Govt which made IAF accept LCA Tejas.
I donot know which Govt will be by the time AMCA will become reality but I hope by then IAF will understand the importance of self reliance.

FGFA is expensive but it is need of the hour.
I believe even the class is not Same FGFA is heavy where as AMCA is planned to be Medium.

We must have FGFA but at our own terms.The current situation is sort of favorable with us as Russia needs money and we can bargain.

They are pressurizing for there own advantage so must we.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,969
AMCA will not be reality till 2030-35, by then our requirements will grow and the world will also progress and have better aircrafts.
FYI work on AMCA has begun on full steam. Tech always progresses with time. That doesn't mean we should abandon our indigenous projects.

Yes, IAF has the motto of having everything imported but i started having some faith in the current Govt which made IAF accept LCA Tejas.
GOI has only made IAF "consider" 80 Tejas MK1A. Final decision will be taken only after evaluation tests.

I hope by then IAF will understand the importance of self reliance.
:pound::pound::pound:

FGFA is expensive but it is need of the hour.
No it isn't. Its need of the hour for Russia to milk Indian cow.

I believe even the class is not Same FGFA is heavy where as AMCA is planned to be Medium.
IAF's classification of aircrafts in weight class is :bs:. AMCA will be as good as any another 5th gen jet.

We must have FGFA
No.

at our own terms.
How?

The current situation is sort of favorable with us
Current situation is most unfavourable because of Russia's new found love with China and Pakistan and our geopolitical tilt towards west.

Russia needs money and we can bargain.
Russia is always in needs of money. This has been the case since MIG-21 deal, yet we never got a good bargain with Russians.

They are pressurizing for there own advantage so must we.
How?
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
FYI work on AMCA has begun on full steam. Tech always progresses with time. That doesn't mean we should abandon our indigenous projects.
AMCA in full swing is a myth It has not passed on from drawing board yet . Who said anything about abandoning it. Contrary i was supporting AMCA
GOI has only made IAF "consider" 80 Tejas MK1A. Final decision will be taken only after evaluation tests.
Ok, I agree to it but they brought them back from what I can call "abandoning Tejas"
I know thats a cruel joke... They are never gonna understand
No it isn't. Its need of the hour for Russia to milk Indian cow.
With the tilt towards US, Russia is also getting insecure. They will love to maintain there position . Its like killing the hen that lays golden eggs to get them all.
IAF's classification of aircrafts in weight class is :bs:. AMCA will be as good as any another 5th gen jet.
No one questioned the capability of AMCA, but how can we even do that when we have no info about it.
Yes, Its need of the hour . In todays world where we are trying to become a super power or appear to be one we cannot be a Gen behind the rest of the world.
thats where diplomacy comes into play. Closeness towards US and France can be used
Current situation is most unfavourable because of Russia's new found love with China and Pakistan and our geopolitical tilt towards west.
They can never be there "Milking Cows" :p with India its a win win situation. China was earlier also there customer but not like us we were partners and you cannot Milk anything out of Pakistan except terror.
Russia is always in needs for money. This has been the case since MIG-21 deal, yet we never got a good bargain with Russians.


How?
thats what we need to wait and watch and keep our fingers crossed. We donot have an alternative, they donot have a choice.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,969
AMCA in full swing is a myth It has not passed on from drawing board yet.

AMCA is in second stage of development. A scaled prototype is in the making. Once aerodynamic and radiation tests are done design will be frozen.

Yes, Its need of the hour . In todays world where we are trying to become a super power or appear to be one we cannot be a Gen behind the rest of the world.
We can't be super power with borrowed weapons.

We donot have an alternative
Yes we do have an alternative, its called AMCA.
 

Filtercoffee

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
615
Likes
214
Country flag
AMCA is only solution for the India’s 5th generation fighter problem. PM Modi must clear AMCA project immediately. Since Russia demanding 7 billion dollar for FGFA development. We must cancel FGFA project and go for AMCA. We must rope in Boeing or Lockheed Martin for development of AMCA. We must also rope in private companies Tata, Mahindra and Larsen Turbo etc. For Strategic reason we must procure 36 F 35A from USA and put rest of the money in the AMCA development. Ingenious radar Uttam is under development and will be operational on Tejas MK 2. We must negotiate GE F414 up trust engine for AMCA or develop up trust ingenious engine with help of France, USA, and UK. We must develop these AMCA is 8 years’ time and induct in Air Force and Navy in 2028. Private companies must be involved in to speed up development. We must start online campaign and bring notice to PMO. Already AMCA prototype design looking like F 22 Raptor.

We must develop develope 3 three prototypes of AMCA one for air force and another navy. The two prototypes of navy one will Stobar aircraft and another must be Catobar aircraft. By deploying Astra beyond visual range missile, laser guided bomb and brahmos missile will be deadly combo. At least 400 AMCA must be inducted in air force and 100 must inducted in navy. Tata must build AMCA aircraft instead of HAL because lazy and very slow them already delay Tejas induction. Now I have head nearly 4 Lakh employees of Government defense organization are going on strike. I sincerely hope that they don’t delay Tejas production. Tejas production must given to Tata or Mahindra. AMCA is a India’s future Aeronautical development we must not lost opportunity in the case Harut India's first fighter aircraft.

Note:

Above statements written by me is my own and it is not copied or posted from any other websites or artilces.
HAL and UAC have put in a lot of manpower and man hours in this project with details already confirmed on the timeline. We need both aircraft. FGFA is a medium/heavy stealth fighter bomber and AMCA is a pure dog fighter(or should be one).
 

smestarz

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,054
Country flag
When do we expect AMCA? 2050? 2100 ?

India would not find things comfortable with anyone, because

a) India wants to be self reliant, means less future business, thus would you really teach all the tricks to someone who will be your competition? Even France is not eager to give ToT and whatever their ToT will be for a 4th gen plane not a 5th gen plane. France does not have a 5th gen plane. Painting WW1 biplane with RAM does not make it a 5th gen plane. So Russia will want its pound of flesh.

b) The main user IAF wants only imported Western plane, and it had the objections to PAKFA even when the russians were developing the plane, Remember the plane is being developed and tested and would be complete actually after Item 30 engine, and yet you have comments from IAF saying.."... we dont want PAKFA ... " Thus we see that pilots are eager for PAKFA/FGFA but the top brass want a western plane only, and it is the top brass which is clueless most of the times. else how can few ideas given by DM Parrikar improve the availability of Su-30 MKI? why was IAF top brass unable to do this on their own? Lack of initiative and lack of incentive.

c) the only 5th Gen planes are F-22, F-35 which we cannot get, J-20 J-31 which also we cannot get, Japanese ATD-X which we can try for JV. and we have the korean 5th Gen plane and lastly its Russian PAKFA. Out of the ones which are possible, we have done a lot of business with Russia and others are new for us.

It would be easy to say "... dump FGFA and get AMCA .." but where are we on that matter? What engine do we have at present? NONE,.
What avionics do we have? we are developing our own avionics yet.
How well do we know about Stealth shaping etc ? We know from youtube "experts"
What experience we have in plane designing, A LOT, WE HAVE BEEN DESIGNING A PLANE FOR 3 DECADES AND THE USER DOES NOT WANT IT..

I think the approach should be to say "Good doggie ..." till you find the stick,, the problem is that there is no stick, So AMCA is a dream project and it would come to fruition when all the aspects (DESIGNS, POWERPLANT, AVIONICS, ETC,) all come together at the same time, and the user accepts it, Till then we can just depend on last centurys planes as our mainstay till say 2030 at least


AMCA is only solution for the India’s 5th generation fighter problem. PM Modi must clear AMCA project immediately. Since Russia demanding 7 billion dollar for FGFA development. We must cancel FGFA project and go for AMCA. We must rope in Boeing or Lockheed Martin for development of AMCA. We must also rope in private companies Tata, Mahindra and Larsen Turbo etc. For Strategic reason we must procure 36 F 35A from USA and put rest of the money in the AMCA development. Ingenious radar Uttam is under development and will be operational on Tejas MK 2. We must negotiate GE F414 up trust engine for AMCA or develop up trust ingenious engine with help of France, USA, and UK. We must develop these AMCA is 8 years’ time and induct in Air Force and Navy in 2028. Private companies must be involved in to speed up development. We must start online campaign and bring notice to PMO. Already AMCA prototype design looking like F 22 Raptor.

We must develop develope 3 three prototypes of AMCA one for air force and another navy. The two prototypes of navy one will Stobar aircraft and another must be Catobar aircraft. By deploying Astra beyond visual range missile, laser guided bomb and brahmos missile will be deadly combo. At least 400 AMCA must be inducted in air force and 100 must inducted in navy. Tata must build AMCA aircraft instead of HAL because lazy and very slow them already delay Tejas induction. Now I have head nearly 4 Lakh employees of Government defense organization are going on strike. I sincerely hope that they don’t delay Tejas production. Tejas production must given to Tata or Mahindra. AMCA is a India’s future Aeronautical development we must not lost opportunity in the case Harut India's first fighter aircraft.

Note:

Above statements written by me is my own and it is not copied or posted from any other websites or artilces.
 

smestarz

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,054
Country flag
Why do we need a dogfighter when the dogfighting is done by missiles?
Why you want to enter a gun fight with a small pocket knife? Get over the idea of dog fighting
What we need is a very maneuverable plane .developed mainly for Carrier operations with excellent range and ability to carry 2 Anti shipping or cruise missiles and two long range A2A missiles in its internal bays.


HAL and UAC have put in a lot of manpower and man hours in this project with details already confirmed on the timeline. We need both aircraft. FGFA is a medium/heavy stealth fighter bomber and AMCA is a pure dog fighter(or should be one).
 

smestarz

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,054
Country flag
AMCA is still in design stage, We are making scaled prototype.. engine? avionics?? testing yet to be done,
on other hand the Russians have engine being tested, all other things are done and their prototypes are flying,
From design to prototype they took about decade and that too with experience, and then here we are trying the same thing without experience of the right tools,, you still think the plane will be ready in next 10 years? Honestly?

AMCA is in second stage of development. A scaled prototype is in the making. Once aerodynamic and radiation tests are done design will be frozen.
YES very true, but then for being a super power need to have the industrial knowledge and infra structure, Thanks to 10 years of UPA rule, the industry has been growing on its own, without real direction from Govt. What we need is a model where companies come together to form a consortioum and design and develop a product, and where govt also invests and the private players also invest in the development. And also both the selected players are given chance to produce their products and used and further developed
We can't be super power with borrowed weapons.
WE HAVE A DREAM CALLED AMCA, WE ALSO HAVE A DREAM CALLED FGFA and see where its going..
You can use the word ALTERNATIVE, when AMCA flies, till then, its not an alternative, its just wishing
For a war that comes within say next 5-10 years, what will we fight with? AMCA?
Yes we do have an alternative, its called AMCA.
 

smestarz

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,054
Country flag
I do not believe in the weight clas BS,
I just believe in the capability of the plane and its ability,
If there is say a B-1 plane with ability to destroy anything in air and maintain a sanisited radius of 400 kms around it, I would take it anytime against an excellent dog fighter,
If you can shoot the dog from a distance, no need to dog fight,

The weight classes are the BS brought by IAF to get Rafale., We already have MMRCA in MiG-29 so why was IAF crying about Medium Weight etc?

Weight is very important when its about carrier operation, but when its land based the important thing is the range and the load can carry and how well it can take care of itself

Rafale is Medium MRCA but in Pokhran was taken down by Su-30 MKI, evem Eurofighter was taken down in exercises by su-30 MKI, and yet, Rafale is considered Superior, funny, And with both Rafale and Su-30 MKI getting recent upgrades the superiority will be maintained

AMCA will not be reality till 2030-35, by then our requirements will grow and the world will also progress and have better aircrafts.
Yes, IAF has the motto of having everything imported but i started having some faith in the current Govt which made IAF accept LCA Tejas.
I donot know which Govt will be by the time AMCA will become reality but I hope by then IAF will understand the importance of self reliance.

FGFA is expensive but it is need of the hour.
I believe even the class is not Same FGFA is heavy where as AMCA is planned to be Medium.

We must have FGFA but at our own terms.The current situation is sort of favorable with us as Russia needs money and we can bargain.

They are pressurizing for there own advantage so must we.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
We can buy 20 - 40 Pak-Fas in Russian configuration off the shelf without TOT. This means we have stealth planes off the shelf to counter Chinese J-20s and J-31s. All three planes are in similar stage of development.
By the time Pakistan starts inducting J-31, we will have AMCA.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,969
When do we expect AMCA? 2050? 2100 ?
Stop trolling. Go and read other posts here on DFI about AMCA. Gather some info.

India wants to be self reliant, means less future business, thus would you really teach all the tricks to someone who will be your competition?
So we shouldn't except favours from anyone but Russia. Why Russia is exception? Why do I hear nonstop about how Russia will help India. Russia will give 5th gen. Russian will give tech for AMCA. Russia is not a province of India. They have their own interests.

ToT will be for a 4th gen plane not a 5th gen plane. France does not have a 5th gen plane.....5th Gen planes are F-22, F-35.........korean 5th Gen plane
Enough with 4th gen 5th gen BS. Its all marketing term by Lockheed martin to make US senators waste more of their tax payer's money.

What engine do we have at present? NONE,
For AMCA: GE F414.

What avionics do we have? we are developing our own avionics yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#Avionics

How well do we know about Stealth shaping etc ?
How well does Russian know about stealth shaping? How many other stealth plane Russia has besides PAKFA?

WE HAVE BEEN DESIGNING A PLANE FOR 3 DECADES AND THE USER DOES NOT WANT IT..
Please don't troll with 30 years number. That was our first try. We had to work with shoestring budget, We lacked proper facilities. On top of that LCA project was put on hold, we were under sanctions. All that contributed to 30 years timeframe.

BTW LCA is best single engine option IAF has right now. If we induct Tejas in large numbers, we don't need any foreign maal including FGFA.

Why user doesn't want LCA? because of dalal money.

its just wishing
For a war that comes within say next 5-10 years, what will we fight with?
SU-30
MIG-29
Tejas
Rafale
Mirage 2000
Jaguar

Rafale is Medium MRCA but in Pokhran was taken down by Su-30 MKI, evem Eurofighter was taken down in exercises by su-30 MKI,
Good to know. It shows our SU-30 is very capable. Another reason why no need to waste money on another glorified flanker (FGFA)

WE ALSO HAVE A DREAM CALLED FGFA
 

smestarz

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
1,929
Likes
1,054
Country flag
J-20 is not really a fighter, as per me its more like a deep strike plane, It is not the dogfighting variety.

We can buy 20 - 40 Pak-Fas in Russian configuration off the shelf without TOT. This means we have stealth planes off the shelf to counter Chinese J-20s and J-31s. All three planes are in similar stage of development.
By the time Pakistan starts inducting J-31, we will have AMCA.
 

xeaaex

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
235
Likes
441
HAL and UAC have put in a lot of manpower and man hours in this project with details already confirmed on the timeline. We need both aircraft. FGFA is a medium/heavy stealth fighter bomber and AMCA is a pure dog fighter(or should be one).
There are no pure dog fighting roles for current aircraft generation it will render aircraft useless.
I hope you meant to say air superiority fighter.
Anyway it's always should be multirole fighter.
 

scatterStorm

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
2,242
Likes
5,335
Country flag
There are no pure dog fighting roles for current aircraft generation it will render aircraft useless.
I hope you meant to say air superiority fighter.
Anyway it's always should be multirole fighter.
There's a misconception among people that today's air theatre are dominated by missiles ... while it's somewhat true, it's important to note that today advances in ECM suits could render any missile attack useless.

Real world example: a live exercise with simulated missiles was carried out at China lake in 2012, it was the first Typhoon Vs F22 battle, it was highly likely that F22 would see Typhoon first and it did, but what F22 pilots weren't expecting that although Typhoon pilots did use data radar on training mode, it's was the PIRATE IRST which detected an AMRAAM(Aim 120D) launch 100km away, which would imply that an F22 was near by, using PIRATE IRST Typhoon pilots were able to position themselves to evade the missile, it also forced F22 pilots to enter WVR combat. And the rest is history ... nobody can match the speed and high alpha of a Tyohoon in WVR combat at that point in time (now I think it's SU50) The PIRATE system was able to detect every F22 encountered and scored kills. A pilot still has those 4 F22 markings on his plane.

The point over here is, every pilot knows his plane much better than others, if he/she can exploit that ability to his/her own advantage with the help of avionics onboard, he/she can can turn the tides of the game, that's what make them best pilots ... not the machine.

In fact, there's a high possibility that after the turkey shooting is over, and when armaments such as missiles are very few left or no more ... whoever will engage in an air theatre will likely see a WVR combat ... and yup dogfighting chances are still there.
 

scatterStorm

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
2,242
Likes
5,335
Country flag
Funny thing is ... now they are expecting that we pay them $7bill for full ToT of PAK-FA program. I think we should reply them back by saying "no thank you sire, we don't want such expensive bailout package, we can bail out even by not paying a single dime".

Russians can shove SU50 ToT up there arse, we would simply buy few of them off-the-shelf with our own tweaked avionics suite, let the boys fly a few thousand sorties, after they clock some Good flying experience, call the top 5% of them to HAL AMCA facility, give them full freedom to express there desires in our AMCA and also contribute to the development of the plane.

Engines ... we can order F414 or the F414E right now, use it as test bed for single squadron worth of birds. This will make production faster and reaching to our goals too in short amount of time. Avionics even though 60 percent can be supplied by the various facilities scattered across the country, buy the rest from foreign contractors and atleast make two prototypes ready in the next few years.

Once SAFRAN helps us with consulting (hopefully) hook those performance enhanced kaveries into the second prototype and from then onwards, continue developing AMCA for few more squadrons worth of birds with our own engine.
 

Global Defence

Articles

Top