ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Prashant12

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Tejas platforms till SP-12 will enter equipping stage soon




Bengaluru: Amidst the ongoing ‘controversy and confusion’ over whether the Indian Air Force (IAF) is keen to go ahead with the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme beyond the first and second blocks of 20 each, the sixth series production variant from the hangars of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) took to the skies for the first time sans any fanfare, recently.

The maiden flight of SP-7, the sixth out of the total 20 to be delivered in the Initial Operational Clearance (ICO) standards, took place on December 12 at the HAL airport here, with zero snags being reported by the pilot after completing the Profile-1 of the flight envelope.

Tejas SP-7 was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugopal (Retd). With this, the IAF No 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) would soon have half-a-dozon of Tejas platforms to operate with. Currently being raised in Bengaluru, the No 45 Squadron will eventually move to Air Force Station Sulur, near Coimbatore.



IAF is ramping up its infrastructure at AFS Sulur with modern hangars being reading to accommodate Tejas 16 fighters and four trainers, part of the first block of delivery from HAL.

SP-5 from Kiran hangar will join the party soon

The fifth Tejas series production platform SP-5, being built at the second production line established at the Aircraft Division by HAL, too will have its maiden flight soon. HAL converted the erstwhile Kiran hangar to set up this additional production line, which boasts of producing three aircraft per year, when fully operational.

V Sridharan, who retired as the Executive Director of LCA Division recently, says that Tejas platforms up to SP-10 are currently under equipping in Final Assembly Hangar.

“Very soon they will be followed by SP-11 and SP-12. Kudos to the entire Team of Tejas involved in the manufacturing activities for their untiring efforts in making this possible despite adverse criticism in the last three years, both in terms of quality and quantity,” says Sridharan.

Frequent modifications a concern

Interestingly, he says that the even after delivering six series production platforms by HAL, the Standard of Preparation (Build to Print Documents) have not been frozen, despite the IOC nod in December 2013.

“The introduction of more than 270 modifications after accordance of IOC, in the name of concurrent engineering is a potential source of introducing uncertainties during the production phase. This can affect time-lines on a regular basis. These changes even warrant design and manufacturing of new parts which results in delays. All these changes are introduced towards envisaged performance and system improvements as per the requirements of IAF,” says Sridharan, who has been credited with establishing the new LCA Division.

He says the LCA Division developed ICY (interchangeability) tools for all 147 panels and for 830 pipelines out of 934 pipelines within the build of first seven SP Tejas aircraft itself.

“This is a huge shift compared to any other projects in HAL, that too at such short span of time after the release of RSD (Release of Service Documents). Even now, only concept of replaceable pipes is existing in other projects. LCA has gone far ahead in the area of ICY compliance through the dedicated efforts of its tooling department,” claims Sridharan.

He says HAL, in an effort to further augment the production capacity, has outsourced all the major structural modules to private partners, including sub-assemblies, role equipment, pipelines, sheet metal part electrical looms and panels.

“This would enhance the production rate to 16 per year from the year 2019 onwards apart from developing an eco-system for manufacturing of a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft in India. This is likely to materialize by mid-2018 and thereafter, HAL would further be able to ramp up the production rate to 20 aircraft-plus every year,” adds Sridharan.

On the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) front, sources at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) say that the programme will complete all tasks mandated within 2018.

“There are only few more crucial test points to be achieved. Then there could be additional requirements. Hopefully, the FOC should be in place in the third quarter of 2018,” says a top scientist.

Currently, Tejas LSP-8 is optimising flight profiles with the in-flight refueling probe (IFR). The air-to-air refueling trials will begin early 2018. Four Tejas variants recently undertook night attack missions for the first time, as per the FOC schedule.


http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-12-will-enter-equipping-stage-soon-1.2464308
 

AnantS

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And then we have things like this...


Too many vested interests...
umm.. I think its general trend in manufacturing and even s/w development. Esp in latter CI-CD/DevOps is the latest trend. Its good, that aircraft is seeing minor iterations. Yes its a BIG PAIN in the a$$ for engineers and program managers. However it keeps your product upto date as well as meets customer requirement. I really really hope that HAL,ADA collect their learning and use them to come up with new/tweaked standard processes suited to Indian eco-system which helps in more smoother production of future variants/aircraft.
 

Kunal Biswas

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- SP-8,9,10 are in the equipping stage in the final assembly hangar. Very soon they will be joined by SP-11 and SP-12.

- SP-5 which is from the second production line is expected to have its first flight before the end of this month.

- V Sridharan, the previous executive director of Tejas division expects the annual production rate to reach 16 by mid 2018. He expects the build rate to reach 20 there after since HAL has begun outsourcing all the structural assemblies, fuselage blocks and wings, sheet metal parts, pipings to the private industry.

-The standard of preparation hasn't been finalized yet despite the production of seven series produced aircraft. There has been 270 modifications in the aircraft since the attainment of IOC 2 status in Dec 13 as a result of concurrent engineering. This has adversely affected time scales.

- Interchangeability standards have been developed for the tools of all the 147 panels and 830 out of 942 pipelines within the production of first seven SP series aircraft itself which is a first for HAL.

===========

Summarized by @Arihant
 

lcafanboy

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- SP-8,9,10 are in the equipping stage in the final assembly hangar. Very soon they will be joined by SP-11 and SP-12.

- SP-5 which is from the second production line is expected to have its first flight before the end of this month.

- V Sridharan, the previous executive director of Tejas division expects the annual production rate to reach 16 by mid 2018. He expects the build rate to reach 20 there after since HAL has begun outsourcing all the structural assemblies, fuselage blocks and wings, sheet metal parts, pipings to the private industry.

-The standard of preparation hasn't been finalized yet despite the production of seven series produced aircraft. There has been 270 modifications in the aircraft since the attainment of IOC 2 status in Dec 13 as a result of concurrent engineering. This has adversely affected time scales.

- Interchangeability standards have been developed for the tools of all the 147 panels and 830 out of 942 pipelines within the production of first seven SP series aircraft itself which is a first for HAL.

===========

Summarized by @Arihant
The biggest question is, where are the Engines? I suppose We had 24-26 ge404 of which 12 are used. After that what. No new order placed and so very soon the lines will be idle.
 

Chinmoy

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The biggest question is, where are the Engines? I suppose We had 24-26 ge404 of which 12 are used. After that what. No new order placed and so very soon the lines will be idle.
GE already handed over 2 nos of F-414 to ADA. Another 6 was to be delivered this year itself as per GE. I believe Mk-1A itself would fly with 414 rather then 404.
 

lcafanboy

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GE already handed over 2 nos of F-414 to ADA. Another 6 was to be delivered this year itself as per GE. I believe Mk-1A itself would fly with 414 rather then 404.
That would need certification due to change in engine & FOC for Mk1A standards. Have we started yet, I suppose no.
 

Chinmoy

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That would need certification due to change in engine & FOC for Mk1A standards. Have we started yet, I suppose no.
IAF always wanted a higher thrust engine then what the Kaveri had to offer. F-404 is just a fallback plan if Kaveri don't materialize, which eventually happened. FOC requirement of Tejas could be met by F-414 only. Right now the 20 IOC standar would have F-404, but I would not be surprised to see another 20 FOC standard flying with F-414.

Moreover it was pre planned that Mk2 would be flying with F-414 along with some major improvements. But HAL did provided a interim solution with Mk1A instead.
 

lcafanboy

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IAF always wanted a higher thrust engine then what the Kaveri had to offer. F-404 is just a fallback plan if Kaveri don't materialize, which eventually happened. FOC requirement of Tejas could be met by F-414 only. Right now the 20 IOC standar would have F-404, but I would not be surprised to see another 20 FOC standard flying with F-414.

Moreover it was pre planned that Mk2 would be flying with F-414 along with some major improvements. But HAL did provided a interim solution with Mk1A instead.
If that's the case then combat range of LCA Mk1A will be lower than LCA Mk1 since there's no increase in fuel capacity but higher thrust Ge414 will consume more fuel bringing down already low combat range.
 

Steven Rogers

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If that's the case then combat range of LCA Mk1A will be lower than LCA Mk1 since there's no increase in fuel capacity but higher thrust Ge414 will consume more fuel bringing down already low combat range.
F414 has higher thrust, better fuel efficiency and higher dry thrust, it won't decrease the flight hour.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk
 

kamaal

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Tejas platforms till SP-12 will enter equipping stage soon




Bengaluru: Amidst the ongoing ‘controversy and confusion’ over whether the Indian Air Force (IAF) is keen to go ahead with the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme beyond the first and second blocks of 20 each, the sixth series production variant from the hangars of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) took to the skies for the first time sans any fanfare, recently.

The maiden flight of SP-7, the sixth out of the total 20 to be delivered in the Initial Operational Clearance (ICO) standards, took place on December 12 at the HAL airport here, with zero snags being reported by the pilot after completing the Profile-1 of the flight envelope.

Tejas SP-7 was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugopal (Retd). With this, the IAF No 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) would soon have half-a-dozon of Tejas platforms to operate with. Currently being raised in Bengaluru, the No 45 Squadron will eventually move to Air Force Station Sulur, near Coimbatore.



IAF is ramping up its infrastructure at AFS Sulur with modern hangars being reading to accommodate Tejas 16 fighters and four trainers, part of the first block of delivery from HAL.

SP-5 from Kiran hangar will join the party soon

The fifth Tejas series production platform SP-5, being built at the second production line established at the Aircraft Division by HAL, too will have its maiden flight soon. HAL converted the erstwhile Kiran hangar to set up this additional production line, which boasts of producing three aircraft per year, when fully operational.

V Sridharan, who retired as the Executive Director of LCA Division recently, says that Tejas platforms up to SP-10 are currently under equipping in Final Assembly Hangar.

“Very soon they will be followed by SP-11 and SP-12. Kudos to the entire Team of Tejas involved in the manufacturing activities for their untiring efforts in making this possible despite adverse criticism in the last three years, both in terms of quality and quantity,” says Sridharan.

Frequent modifications a concern

Interestingly, he says that the even after delivering six series production platforms by HAL, the Standard of Preparation (Build to Print Documents) have not been frozen, despite the IOC nod in December 2013.

“The introduction of more than 270 modifications after accordance of IOC, in the name of concurrent engineering is a potential source of introducing uncertainties during the production phase. This can affect time-lines on a regular basis. These changes even warrant design and manufacturing of new parts which results in delays. All these changes are introduced towards envisaged performance and system improvements as per the requirements of IAF,” says Sridharan, who has been credited with establishing the new LCA Division.


He says the LCA Division developed ICY (interchangeability) tools for all 147 panels and for 830 pipelines out of 934 pipelines within the build of first seven SP Tejas aircraft itself.

“This is a huge shift compared to any other projects in HAL, that too at such short span of time after the release of RSD (Release of Service Documents). Even now, only concept of replaceable pipes is existing in other projects. LCA has gone far ahead in the area of ICY compliance through the dedicated efforts of its tooling department,” claims Sridharan.

He says HAL, in an effort to further augment the production capacity, has outsourced all the major structural modules to private partners, including sub-assemblies, role equipment, pipelines, sheet metal part electrical looms and panels.

“This would enhance the production rate to 16 per year from the year 2019 onwards apart from developing an eco-system for manufacturing of a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft in India. This is likely to materialize by mid-2018 and thereafter, HAL would further be able to ramp up the production rate to 20 aircraft-plus every year,” adds Sridharan.

On the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) front, sources at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) say that the programme will complete all tasks mandated within 2018.

“There are only few more crucial test points to be achieved. Then there could be additional requirements. Hopefully, the FOC should be in place in the third quarter of 2018,” says a top scientist.

Currently, Tejas LSP-8 is optimising flight profiles with the in-flight refueling probe (IFR). The air-to-air refueling trials will begin early 2018. Four Tejas variants recently undertook night attack missions for the first time, as per the FOC schedule.


http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news...-12-will-enter-equipping-stage-soon-1.2464308
What does the bold part actually mean ? Is IAF still changing specification in IOC standard and creating more hurdles in SP manufacturing?

If true, thats absurd.
 

lcafanboy

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The only viable option is Kaveri snecma engine. If it's ready and certified for air worthiness then We can have some hope otherwise HAL should have placed orders for the ge404 engines by now which they have not and is a huge concern.
 

pmaitra

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Thank you for quoting this article. I have read it too. I don't know how thoroughly you read it. I will quote a few things from this very article you have quoted.

But first, let me go back to your earlier comment.
During operation Safad Sagar, IAF Mirages provided close air support by conducted raids on tiger hill with precision guided bombs to destroy enemy bunkers, In similar way Tejas are tested with PGMs like LGB and certified to use it for CAS role ..
Here are my points:


§1. Mirage-2000 was not used for Close Air Support. It was used in Strike role.
Philip Camp said:
7 Squadron had completed over 240 strike missions during the same period dropping over 55,000 Kgs of ordnance.
____________________
§2. As I have explained earlier, delta wing aircraft is good for high-speed-high-altitude and straight-wing aircraft is good for low-speed-low-altitude; and not the other way around.
Philip Camp said:
The Mirage 2000 aircraft itself had always been regarded as an air defence fighter with a limited ground attack capability.
I will add, this is also the difference between the MiG-23 and MiG-27. Aerodynamically, both are very similar, but the latter should be used for CAS, and not the former.
____________________
§3. There was no loitering. The aircraft came, bombed, and went back. Note the time duration.
Philip Camp said:
These only had 20-minute duration in the area and would usually be supplemented by another pair.
____________________
§4. Close Air Support usually happens at low altitude. Mirage-2000s were operated at an altitude of 30,000 feet or 9144 metres. How much altitude was lost during dive is not mentioned in the article. Further material provided under §5 quantifies the altitude involved in Close Air Support.
Philip Camp said:
Normal procedure employed during the dumb bomb attacks was for the aircraft to commence a dive at about 30,000 feet and designate the target at 15 kms distance.
____________________
Neither the term “Close Air Support” nor “CAS” occurs anywhere in the article. As the artcile makes it clear, those were Strike missions. This is pretty similar to the missions flown by Russian Tupolev-22M3 in Syria.
____________________
§5. I get a feeling that many people do not know what Close Air Support is to begin with. I will present some evidence so that misconceptions are eradicated for good.

Quoted from document entitled “Close Air Support” and signed by DAVID L. GOLDFEIN, Lt Gen, USAF.

upload_2017-12-18_22-9-43.png


upload_2017-12-18_22-9-53.png


upload_2017-12-18_22-10-0.png


____________________
§6. Now, I will present some visualization of the mission. I don't have the exact flight path, but I will provide a rough estimate based on the data provided in the article.

Battlefield altitude was 2700 metres, 3400 metres, and 5,000 metres, in Kargil, Dras, and Tiger Hill, respectively. Operating altitude of Mirage-2000s was 9144 metres. Target acquisition, target illumination, and munition delivery was done at 20 km, 15 km, and 8.5 km respectively. A rough visualization of the operation is provided below.

upload_2017-12-18_22-43-23.png

Source: All the data in blue can be verified from the article by Philip Camp.

Note: The highest altitude for CAS, 15,000 feet or 4572 metres, as described in §5, is still half the altitude of the Mirage-2000. This is important because air density plays a role in how the aerofoil behaves. Even if we take the highest target as Tiger Hill, which is at 5,000 metres, the Mirage-2000 would have had a relative altitude similar to the High Altitude Tactics as described above. Still, this does not take into account the fact that (1) there was no loitering, and (2) the munition release happens at a distance of 8,500 metres (which is natural, because these aircraft were not supposed to cross the LoC); so, those missions were Strike missions, and not Close Air Support missions.
____________________

§7. Now, some brainstorming aka a general question to everyone. Assume, the LCA is used in a Close Air Support role, flies at an altitude of 7750 feet or 2362 metres (which is the average of 15,000 feet and 500 feet, the altitude range of CAS) with a dive angle of 25 degrees (which is the average of 5 degrees and 45 degrees); how will the aircraft handle?
 

Sancho

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§7. Now, some brainstorming aka a general question to everyone. Assume, the LCA is used in a Close Air Support role, flies at an altitude of 7750 feet or 2362 metres (which is the average of 15,000 feet and 500 feet, the altitude range of CAS) with a dive angle of 25 degrees (which is the average of 5 degrees and 45 degrees); how will the aircraft handle?
You logic is still flawed by WW2 area tactics! We are not talking about Stuka type dive bombings for years anymore, but about a guided weapon being launched from safe distances and high altitudes to extend the range.
Even combat helicopters today use guided ATGMs, or guided rockets to increase precision and stay out of reach of enemy ground threats.
An LCA with LGBs, lighter PGMs and hopefully Helina varients could be a hell of a CAS fighter and even tank buster, because in modern air warfare the fighter is only the launch platform for a weapon, while the weapon itself is able to glide to the target.
 
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lcafanboy

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You logic is still flawed by WW2 area tactics! We are not talking about Stuka type dive bombings for years anymore, but about a guided weapon being launched from safe distances and high altitudes to extend the range.
Even combat helicopters today use guided ATGMs, or guided rockets to increase precision and stay out of reach of enemy ground threats.
An LCA with LGBs, lighter PGMs and hopefully Helina varients could be a he'll of a CAS fighter and even tank buster, because in modern air warfare the fighter is only the launch platform for a weapon, while the weapon itself is able to glide to the target.
Absolutely correct. Modern CAS in any air strike is totally different nowadays, with stand off smart bombs and ammunition and missiles. Smart glide bombs which can be launched from more than 100 KMS, guided missiles like Brimstones, laser and GPS guided bombs which can be launched from great hieghts have changed complete CAS warfare.

We're lagging behind and it's just now we have started to take steps in this direction with Rafales.

Remember Kargil war how IAF was struggling until Mirages were fitted with PGM kits.

So LCA can perform CAS just like any other modern Fighter.
 
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