ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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kunal1123

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Anonymous letter threatens vital Tejas 1A project

Letter says national resources being wasted in importing AESA radar, though DRDO had developed one

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi July 26, 2017 Last Updated at 00:59 IST


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Not for the first time, an anonymous letter to the ministry of defence (MoD) threatens to delay, if not derail, a vital defence programme: in this case, the Rs 20,000 crore project to develop and build 83 Tejas Mark 1A light combat aircraft, which the MoD sanctioned in November.

On Tuesday, MoD officials, led by Additional Secretary Surina Rajan, met to discuss an unsigned petition the MoD had received against the decision to import a radar for the Tejas Mark 1A fighter. This alleged that national resources were being frittered away in importing an airborne active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, even though the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) had developed indigenous AESA radar.

The anonymous complaint follows a DRDO letter, dated January 5, informing the MoD that it was “working on development of AESA radar” that fully complied with the Tejas Mark 1A requirements. The DRDO requested that it also be given the tender that HAL had issued to global manufacturers of AESA radars.

The letter, which Business Standard has reviewed, makes it clear that the DRDO AESA radar is still far from ready. It notes that two Tejas prototypes are being allotted for “installation and flight evaluation” of its AESA radar. This essential testing process is typically an extended one.

The MoD’s cognizance of the anonymous complaint is already delaying the fast-track development of the Tejas Mark 1A by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and, thereby, the entry of four Tejas Mark 1A squadrons into the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet.

As Business Standard first reported (August 13, 2015 “With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1A”), the Tejas Mark 1A was conceived as an upgraded Tejas Mark 1, with four specific improvements to meet the IAF’s requirements as an operationally capable fighter.

Four key stakeholders – MoD, IAF, HAL and DRDO – agreed together that HAL would enjoy a free hand, including resorting to global purchases, in expeditiously making those four improvements to the Tejas Mark 1. After demonstrating the upgraded fighter to the IAF’s satisfaction by 2018-19, HAL would quickly build 83 fighters (four squadrons) of Tejas Mark 1A.

Of the four upgrades, the most operationally crucial involved equipping the Tejas with AESA radar, in place of the Tejas’ manually scanned Israeli Elta EL/M 2032 radar; and a “self-protection jammer” (SPJ) carried in an external pod under the Tejas’ wing.

Two other upgrades – improving the “maintainability” of the fighter, and fitting it with external refuelling capability are already well in hand.

AESA radar enjoys battle-winning advantages over traditional “manually steered” radar. In the latter, the antenna moves manually to let its radar beam scan the sky for enemy targets. In AESA radar, the beam moves electronically, switching rapidly between many different objects, in effect scanning multiple targets simultaneously. Thus, the “multi-tasking” AESA radar can simultaneously track different enemy aircraft, guide missiles to those, and even radiate electro-magnetic pulses to jam enemy radios and radars. The IAF has concluded that AESA radar would add enormously to the Tejas’ combat capability.

With the DRDO still struggling to miniaturise the AESA enough to fit it in the Tejas fighter’s nose cone, HAL issued a global tender for AESA radars to vendors that included Raytheon (USA), Thales (France), Saab (Sweden) and Israel Aerospace Industries. HAL is currently evaluating the bids that were submitted.

“We must place our order within a couple of months. If we start exploring the DRDO route, we can never meet the deadline of 2018-19”, says a senior HAL executive, speaking off the record.

For now, however, it remains unclear whether the MoD will ignore the anonymous letter, or whether yet another lengthy investigation will ensue.

Disruption of the Tejas Mark 1A time line would also result in the HAL production facility lying unemployed after 2019, when the current order of 20 Tejas Mark 1 fighters would have been delivered.

HAL, which will produce eight Tejas fighters this year, is also implementing a Rs 1,231 crore project to upgrade its production line capacity to 16 Tejas fighters per year. At that production rate, it would complete delivery of 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters by 2023-24.
 

ezsasa

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Basically it's a Babu speak to say Derby BVR, Python 5, Gun are all work in progress and their full battle ready level integration has not been achieved. This reflects very badly on ADA & Israeli that they cannot fully & completely integrate Israeli weapons, with Israeli radar and Israeli avionics inspite of 10 years struggle.
Isn't it that for every missile they have to code a software module?
 

FactsPlease

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...
Disruption of the Tejas Mark 1A time line would also result in the HAL production facility lying unemployed after 2019, when the current order of 20 Tejas Mark 1 fighters would have been delivered.
HAL, which will produce eight Tejas fighters this year, is also implementing a Rs 1,231 crore project to upgrade its production line capacity to 16 Tejas fighters per year. At that production rate, it would complete delivery of 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters by 2023-24.
So it will affect the production plan. Da9n!!
 

Saichand K

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My limited understanding is the opposite to above stated general rule, i meant Delta wing design are excellent in supersonic high speed high altitude as compared to traditional wing designs and vice versa for ground support low speed low attitude operation where traditional wing design like Jaguars excel.

Can somebody correct me if i am wrong on this
No you are absolutely right. Tejas is not suited for CAS operation. It is well suited for interceptor role.
 

TPFscopes

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HAL Tejas is armed with a single Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barreled 23 mm autocannon . It has a rate of fire of 3,400-3,600 rounds/min and uses a 23x115 mm AM-23 ammunition . It is also used by Mig-21 (M, SM, MF, SMT, bis) , Mig-23 variants and other ground attack aircrafts like SOKO J-22 Orao and IAR 93. GSh-23 works on the Gast Gun principle in which the firing action of one barrel operates the mechanism of the other. It provides a much faster rate of fire for lower mechanical wear than a single-barrel weapon. HAL Tejas can carry some 220 rounds of ammunition. Coincidentally JF-17 , is also armed with a GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon .
 

Zero-Sum-Game

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can any of you guys comment upon the utilization of the thrust vectoring nozzles over the tejas platform?
 

TPFscopes

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can any of you guys comment upon the utilization of the thrust vectoring nozzles over the tejas platform?
Single Engine jets can perform 2-dimensional (in vertical axis) more easily with TVC but no or minor effect in horizontal axis.
 

kunal1123

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can any of you guys comment upon the utilization of the thrust vectoring nozzles over the tejas platform?
Klimov and GTRE had a working group with and for the related requirement.
Klimov and GTRE suppose to work in 3d-thrust vectoring nozzles that can be used in various engine of various manufacture. last heard news is about mou for same..............
 

Kunal Biswas

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CAS, CAP, SEAD & are some of the prime roles of Tejas ..

The reason why it carries LGB and other PGMs for A2G role ..

No you are absolutely right. Tejas is not suited for CAS operation. It is well suited for interceptor role.
 

Zero-Sum-Game

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guys, i came across this interesting piece on quora regarding thrust vectoring on lca.
Venkatesh Kidambi, Military Aviation Analyst
Updated Nov 14, 2016

If Upgraded with TVC , Tejas will become Super Maneuverable Fighter. 3D TVC will eliminate the need for the tail fin , making Tejas first of its kind , double compound delta wing fighter aircraft with out fins , tail and canards.

With 3D thrust vector nozzles the LCA will be as maneuverable as the SU 30 MKI , may be more and will be one one hell of a dog fighter. And superb for short range sneak attacks under the radar into Pakistan or Tibet , armed with a single Brahmos under belly, two external or comformal fuel tanks , 2 Derby / Meteor BVR Missiles and 2 Python missiles . This will be a deadly aircraft configuration which will strike deep on either side of the Border with Brahmos from stand off range and then neutralise the incoming fighters before returning to base.

Reduced RCS from lack of fins , tail and canards will give organic stealth, as it reduces the number of reflecting planes in the design.This will further enhance stealth characteristics of the small aircraft by removing the reflected radar signature of the fin . We can call it ALCA. A developmental step in our journey to AMCA.

We can also configure the aircraft with four internal bays and two conformal fuel tanks with out much structural changes as achieved in F 16 & F 15 Silent Eagle to enhance stealth of LCA Tejas.

Below images will give a decent idea of the possibilities for internal weapon bays from F15 Silent Eagle & Conformal fuel tanks from F16.




3D TVC for Lca Tejas can be achieved with Indian made Kaveri engine (finished with French help - as offset for Rafeal deal - as per latest news ) mated with TVC nozzle from Indo-Russian joint venture project between DRDO & Kilmov that is currently underway to produce TVC nozzles hat can be mated with any engine.

This one of the possible MK2 / MK3 configuration. All this is Hypothetical at this stage .Only be made possible if we can finish Kaveri & TVC nozzle, two extremely critical and challenging projects even with foriegn help as there will always be domestic dis-help. Wait and watch.

HAL - ADA - DRDO should actually also work on the single engine version of the AMCA project and leverage all the technology development , transfers and over come some of the short comings of LCA such as size , range, payload and weight. All of these can be worked upon to achieve a very good ‘ light air superiority stealth fighter’ , aka ALCA.

In hind sight Both France and Russia would be extremely upset that they didn't develop single engine versions of Rafale and Flanker. They would've been block busters in current Make In India opportunity for Single engine fighters.

Sources : ( Boing F15 Silent Eagle website & Lockheed F 16 website)

please, contribute with your take on this piece.
 

Zero-Sum-Game

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i also found this somewhat imaginative piece....
Soikot Banerjee, Mechanical Engineering at Vellore Institute of Technology, Vellore (2015-present)
Answered Thu


Assumptions prior to answering the question:

  1. India has got TV tech.
  2. India has got to minaturise the system to fit in LCA.
  3. India has sorted out all weight, fuel consumption related issue for the same.
  4. All existing platform can be fitted with the tech.
  5. IAF has agreed to accept the same.
  6. All needed safety certifications after improvement have been achieved.
ISSUES THAT CAN BE SORTED OUT BY TVC:



  1. The critical angle of A.O.A (Angle between relative wind and wing[chord] at which wing cant produce lift anymore.) can be drastically increased. From present 28* it can be increased to atleast 35*-40*.
  2. Proper designing can reduce the landing/takeoff distance. From 500m to atleast 400m.
  3. With presence of Fly-By-Wire the TVC shall increase the maneuvarablity.
  4. It can make sharp turns. It will help to counter the drag while doing so.
  5. It’s vertical stabiliser can be removed to reduce RCS. comments, please!```
 

SATISH

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Well fitting a TVC to an aircraft like LCA which is delta winged will induce a huge drag in turning fights. Energy management is the key in a turning fight.
 

TPFscopes

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Well fitting a TVC to an aircraft like LCA which is delta winged will induce a huge drag in turning fights. Energy management is the key in a turning fight.
3D TVC can't give its full Capability in single Engine jets because it can well sustain a vertical axis manuevers but not in horizontal axis
You can use 2D TVC like f-22 , it'll give its full potential rather than 3D TVC like we use in Su-30MKI.
 

SATISH

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3D TVC can't give its full Capability in single Engine jets because it can well sustain a vertical axis manuevers but not in horizontal axis
You can use 2D TVC like f-22 , it'll give its full potential rather than 3D TVC like we use in Su-30MKI.
Well it is basic physics...Delta wing has large surface areas. By adding TVC you are going to have an instantaneous turn rate so high that there will be huge loss of speed (energy) in an aircraft. Due to the larger surface area of the wing and a sudden change in direction puts a lot of pressure on the aircraft structure and at the same time decreasing the speed.

Loss of energy means the aircraft reaches stall speed sooner and due to the lack of extra control surfaces in a pure delta the aircraft might be pushed into a spin. The huge stresses on the airframe will reduce the life of the airframe.
 

TPFscopes

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Well it is basic physics...Delta wing has large surface areas. By adding TVC you are going to have an instantaneous turn rate so high that there will be huge loss of speed (energy) in an aircraft. Due to the larger surface area of the wing and a sudden change in direction puts a lot of pressure on the aircraft structure and at the same time decreasing the speed.

Loss of energy means the aircraft reaches stall speed sooner and due to the lack of extra control surfaces in a pure delta the aircraft might be pushed into a spin. The huge stresses on the airframe will reduce the life of the airframe.
It's not an issue, TVC always calibrated with the Aircrafts control system just to maintain the pressure imposed on the body during instant manuevers.
EFT is also a pure Delta wing jet with TVC nozzle (already demonstrated)

Personally, I'm not favouring TVC nozzle use on LCA TEJAS.
 

tharun

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Chinese Chengdu J-10:
First Flight:1998
Introduction:2006
Total Built:400+

Lca Tejas:
First Flight:2001
Introduction:2015
Total Built:21

The first flight between both jets is 3 years apart,but introduction is too late for Tejas.
And the numbers are just jaw droping 400+ in 11-12 years that's 33-36 planes each year.
To the point who is the main culprit and black sheep for the delay of production and introduction of Tejas.
 
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