ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Sancho]

Dhanoa said s but why do you hold the statement of Subhash Bhamre in Parliament that FOC will be obtained by 2025 as invalid?

Because FOC in 2025 would mean that MK2 would only be available in 2028, since it takes 3 years to produce all the parts and systems for an LCA.
But more importantly, both are only giving estimates, since no real time line can be given, unless FOC for MK1 is achieved => which then leads to MK1A first and only after that we will be able to see where we stand with MK2 (not going to the side risks of unfinished Uttam and Kaveri developments).

 

[Steven Rogers]

Tejas is a 4.5 generation aircraft. It is also very stealthy in design. the only difference between 5th gen AMCA and Tejas is the lack of weapons bay in Tejas. But, if you only use internal weapons bay, the MACA will be able to carry only 2 bombs or 4 Astra missiles. So, for all roles except air superiority, AMCA is not ideal. Tejas is the best bet for most of A2G roles and can also lend a hand for A2A role. Tejas has better A2A capacity than F16 due to small RCS.

Also, the 5th generation technology like sensor fusion will also be incorporated in Tejas MK2, not just AMCA. So, Tejas MK2 will be almost equivalent to a 5th generation plane when both are carrying external payloads

Not buying that, Tejas has small rcs due to inherent small size and use of composites. AMCA is designed to be stealthy its a pure 5th gen design which will have very low radar cross section and is way stealthy than tejas, the aircraft will be more stealthy than the F22 due to the usage of Meta materials, new RAP and radar absorbing material embedded into the skin of the aircraft. AMCA will among the first aircraft to use full active array sensor embedded into the body of the aircraft which not only be used for just 360 detection and tracking but also for electronic warfare along with AESA radar, the AMCA will have a suite of IRST in which various IR sensors will be used on the aircraft to provide 360 IR view and tracking capability. And then AMCA will have GaN radar, the project Astra NG, will be developed for AMCA. TEJAS MK2 AF IS better bet if it gets the sensor capability of AMCA such as GaN radar (which it has higher chance), and IRST.(irst development will commence in the next decade). Not to mention the AMCA will have least IR signature among all iaf aircraft due to usage of metamaterials and active cooling for AMCA sensors. Tejas will lack those, also AMCA will transmit data using optical Fibres, tejas will use wires. Rcs for Tejas has little importance, but the size, if tejas mk2 AF is dumbed in favor of Tejas naval mk2 for air force, then it will be a better bet. Tejas can get that GaN aesa downsized version with swash Plate, as planned for AMCA which will be developed under project Uttam, and what we know about uttam aesa is actually the first radar under the project. Tejas mk2 at best will be a comparison to Gripen E, if it employs the changes, but AMCA is a next gen platform with several technologies which makes it a 5.5 gen.

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[Kshithij]

Because FOC in 2025 would mean that MK2 would only be available in 2028, since it takes 3 years to produce all the parts and systems for an LCA.
But more importantly, both are only giving estimates, since no real time line can be given, unless FOC for MK1 is achieved => which then leads to MK1A first and only after that we will be able to see where we stand with MK2 (not going to the side risks of unfinished Uttam and Kaveri developments).

Firstly, FOC is after IOC. The production begins after IOC itself and does not wait for FOC. So, by FOC, full production is to be expected.

Next, Tejas takes 7 month to manufacture, not 3 years. Assembling is the most tedious part. Su30 takes 12 months for manufacturing, most of which is in assembly

An anti ship missile like Harpoon would make LCA as a good replacement for maritime attack Jags, but they would be more suitable to our western coast lines and the enemy in that area.
The larger area that needs to be covered in the east and the far more capable potential enemy there, makes the MKI/Brahmos combo the best choice, although IAF also wanted to have MMRCAs in addition initially.

Su30 is always useful, be it east or west coast. Tejas is a light fighter and is not comparable to Su30. Jaguars are simply horrible and obsolete. It can't maneuver and is likely to be hit by a SAM.

Anti ship missile in subsonic range will also be developed soon. Tejas is good for mass manufacturing and is less fuel intensive. In war, fuel can sometimes be choked. So, fuel conserving Tejas may be a better option. Also, the manufacturing time of Tejas is low and hence makes it easier to be replaced.

Also, if the Naval Tejas are capable of flying from carriers too, they can be used from Andaman and Lakshadweep to replenish the fighters lost from carriers during war

 

[Sancho]

Firstly, FOC is after IOC. The production begins after IOC itself and does not wait for FOC.

Fair enough, if the IOC this time delivers to the promises and doesn't need to be revised again, the production can start earlier.

Next, Tejas takes 7 month to manufacture, not 3 years.

Wrong =>

HAL Chief S. Raju:

Because if we start now, the aircraft will come after three years

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-794#post-1415261

The assembly rate of a fighter per year, doesn't mean that all the parts will be manufactured in the same time. They are pre produced!
Dassault for example currently has a assembly rate of 22 Rafales per year, but each Rafale also takes 3 years to be finished. That's why we get the first once in 2019, 3 years after signing the contract .

 

[Kshithij]

Not buying that, Tejas has small rcs due to inherent small size and use of composites. AMCA is designed to be stealthy its a pure 5th gen design which will have very low radar cross section and is way stealthy than tejas, the aircraft will be more stealthy than the F22 due to the usage of Meta materials, new RAP and radar absorbing material embedded into the skin of the aircraft. AMCA will among the first aircraft to use full active array sensor embedded into the body of the aircraft which not only be used for just 360 detection and tracking but also for electronic warfare along with AESA radar, the AMCA will have a suite of IRST in which various IR sensors will be used on the aircraft to provide 360 IR view and tracking capability. And then AMCA will have GaN radar, the project Astra NG, will be developed for AMCA. TEJAS MK2 AF IS better bet if it gets the sensor capability of AMCA such as GaN radar (which it has higher chance), and IRST.(irst development will commence in the next decade). Not to mention the AMCA will have least IR signature among all iaf aircraft due to usage of metamaterials and active cooling for AMCA sensors. Tejas will lack those, also AMCA will transmit data using optical Fibres, tejas will use wires. Rcs for Tejas has little importance, but the size, if tejas mk2 AF is dumbed in favor of Tejas naval mk2 for air force, then it will be a better bet. Tejas can get that GaN aesa downsized version with swash Plate, as planned for AMCA which will be developed under project Uttam, and what we know about uttam aesa is actually the first radar under the project. Tejas mk2 at best will be a comparison to Gripen E, if it employs the changes, but AMCA is a next gen platform with several technologies which makes it a 5.5 gen.

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The IRST and radar can always be incorporated in Tejas. GaN radar is nothing but replacement of GaAs modules with GaN modules. So, that is simply an upgrade to UTTAM. Astra etc can also be used in Tejas. Airforce Tejas is unlikely to be dumbed down (I have explained why before) but the slight size increase will not change anything. Tejas also has RAM coating.

Yes, things like optical fibre, sensor fusion will not be present on tejas as it requires some redesign in the processing unit and even alter FBW which is a lot of work.

I am simply amazed by you saying that RAM coating will be embedded into the aircraft. If that happens, how will AM coating be replenished after wear and tear due to air friction. Also, what is active array sensor? How will IRST be 360 degree?
This is some fantastic information. Can you explain more?

 

[Kshithij]

Wrong =>

HAL Chief S. Raju:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-794#post-1415261

The assembly rate of a fighter per year, doesn't mean that all the parts will be manufactured in the same time. They are pre produced!
Dassault for example currently has a assembly rate of 22 Rafales per year, but each Rafale also takes 3 years to be finished. That's why we get the first once in 2019, 3 years after signing the contract .

Yes, you are right that if manufacturing time is taken in addition to assembly, it will take more time. The assembly time for Tejas is 7 months and other planes (I assumed it as Su30) takes 12 months to assemble. This was also told by the same person- Suvarna Raju, if I remember rightly.

The manufacturing may take more time if it is a new plane with new parts. But if the manufacturing lines are already designed and ready, it should be faster.

 

[Sancho]

But if the manufacturing lines are already designed and ready, it should be faster.

And there you have the issues...

- MK2 design not ready, airframe not tested
- engine not integrated, more time for intenal changes of the airframe?
- weight and drag issues need to be certified and can be evaluated of course only, after every airframe modification and new system is integrated
- how long will IOC and FOC take?
- the looming fight with DRDO about Uttam and Kaveri Vs MK1A AESA and GE414


There are so many issues that remain, that can delay the upgrade standard and that's why HAL came up with the MK1A compromise and also why IAF was gratious enough to take 83 more LCAs, that doesn't provide the necessary performance, but at least it keeps the production and this important indigenous programme running. People should thank IAF for this and not blame them for all the BS that they are not responsible for (general statement not about you)!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Read the Article published by ADA in March 2017, based on 2015 and 2016 works and progress. LCA MK2 is being developed since mk1 didn't met the requirements. LCA MK2 is more focused on meeting those than a new complete aircraft. Why on earth its been even developed when mk1a will partial meet the requirements. In today's world their is not much requirement of an ultra light aircraft in indian airforce, they are more focused on mid and heavy. 123 would have been enough but making mk2 and that's too inducting in next decade when China will be maturing J20 and possible Pakistan could have their hands on J31, LCA mk2 at best is not only taking share of best engineers at HAL and ADA but also a big sum of money when it will get into the service, 201 aircraft will surely take 20billion. And our fifth gen fighter is yet to get sanctioned while drdo demands for Tejas not AMCA.

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Has china stopped producing J20 because they have built J20.? Even US is producing f16 and f18 and shall continue to produce them for coming decade.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The IRST and radar can always be incorporated in Tejas. GaN radar is nothing but replacement of GaAs modules with GaN modules. So, that is simply an upgrade to UTTAM. Astra etc can also be used in Tejas. Airforce Tejas is unlikely to be dumbed down (I have explained why before) but the slight size increase will not change anything. Tejas also has RAM coating.

Yes, things like optical fibre, sensor fusion will not be present on tejas as it requires some redesign in the processing unit and even alter FBW which is a lot of work.

I am simply amazed by you saying that RAM coating will be embedded into the aircraft. If that happens, how will AM coating be replenished after wear and tear due to air friction. Also, what is active array sensor? How will IRST be 360 degree?
This is some fantastic information. Can you explain more?

GaN replaces GaA with 9 times more performance over GaA and 3re times more thermal conductivity. Simply it can't, their be needed major rework of various systems in radar itself. Radar absorbent skin will be embedded in the major body(wide band materials and Meta materials ). Their is a set of IRST sensors , not a single IRST sensor. Possibly 3re will be used which will be allowing 360degree full awareness in IR spectrum. Seems like you didn't followed Aero India 2017. Sensor fusion is possible for Radar and other EW integration, but if they manage to put the fused data about aircraft, it will be Gr8. Active array sensors are sets of active elements transceivers installed in the selective area of body, which will work on a certain radio frequency which will allow us to detect and track the targets 360 degree.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...gnificant-take-away-from-aero-india-2017.html

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[HariPrasad-1]

Yes, I know that. Look at the year of the brochure. Things have changed after that.

Please provide the references.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Has china stopped producing J20 because they have built J20.? Even US is producing f16 and f18 and shall continue to produce them for coming decade.

Please read as :

Has china stopped producing J10 because they have built J20.?

 

[Steven Rogers]

Please read as :

Has china stopped producing J10 because they have built J20.?

China has shifted their best engineers on J20 project.

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[HariPrasad-1]

HAL Chief S. Raju:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-794#post-1415261

If tejas is made 15+m long and EJ 2300 engine is put into it, It will be a Baap of all 4th generation aircraft and will out class anything in 4th gen. If Airforce tejas is made out of Naval Tejas Mk2, it will a super plane. It will have
of 18 tons and we can boost the range to 2500 KM +. It should carry 7 ton payload. We must spent 5 years designing this beast and in next 5 years, all the test should complete and production should begun. ....................................

 

[Kshithij]

If tejas is made 15+m long and EJ 2300 engine is put into it, It will be a Baap of all 4th generation aircraft and will out class anything in 4th gen. If Airforce tejas is made out of Naval Tejas Mk2, it will a super plane. It will have
of 18 tons and we can boost the range to 2500 KM +. It should carry 7 ton payload. We must spent 5 years designing this beast and in next 5 years, all the test should complete and production should begun. ....................................

EJ200 is not made in india. UK is not Indian ally and can't be trusted

 

[Steven Rogers]

If tejas is made 15+m long and EJ 2300 engine is put into it, It will be a Baap of all 4th generation aircraft and will out class anything in 4th gen. If Airforce tejas is made out of Naval Tejas Mk2, it will a super plane. It will have
of 18 tons and we can boost the range to 2500 KM +. It should carry 7 ton payload. We must spent 5 years designing this beast and in next 5 years, all the test should complete and production should begun. ....................................

Instead of that, uprated 110kN class F414 that was proposed for prototyping AMCA.

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[Kshithij]

Instead of that, uprated 110kN class F414 that was proposed for prototyping AMCA.

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There is no 110kN class F414. That is just a dream. In this real world, there is no 110kN F414

 

[Steven Rogers]

There is no 110kN class F414. That is just a dream. In this real world, there is no 110kN F414

Yep it doesn't exist, but will be if funded.

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[HariPrasad-1]

Instead of that, uprated 110kN class F414 that was proposed for prototyping AMCA.

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EJ 2300 has thrust victor..........

 

[HariPrasad-1]

EJ200 is not made in india. UK is not Indian ally and can't be trusted

They have already offered. If UK can not be offered than how can we trust US?

 

[Kshithij]

They have already offered. If UK can not be offered than how can we trust US?

There has been no offer to make any engine in India. It could just have been assembly which is worthless.

USa and UK both can't be trusted. F404 is just temporary engine