ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

manindra

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Seriously i have been thinking about the F-414INS6 engine - is it to come with FULL TOT ??

Sure license build but with FULL TOT that will enable industry absorbtion and wont it be better to see if that is properly done and absorb into the system properly and in large numbers and have GE actualize and strengthen its view from India.

FULL TOT (sure in large(st) number was the critical term in the tender i would have thought.
Full ToT is farce even with our production of AL-31 Saturn engine of Su-30 MKI (we manufacture only nearly 80 % of English locally and rest 20% most critical parts come from Russia.
It's a only method of gaining know how for new players.
In F-414 license production wr would not gain any new technology which we already not have (infact more thanks to Kaveri program) it's purely economically and only produce 70% maximum ( I am taking Swedish Volvo as account) of engine part.
 

saik

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I just can't believe outta 1.2 billion, even a handful understand what is ToT, and besides all why would the hegemonic americans give away technology. have they done it anywhere else? even to their best of poodling nations?
 

V Bala

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I am given to understand that F-404 engine will be used for LCA Mk-II also ? Perhaps to ToT for this engine should be easier to get from Americans.
 

Pulkit

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I am given to understand that F-404 engine will be used for LCA Mk-II also ? Perhaps to ToT for this engine should be easier to get from Americans.
404 is for tejas MK1 and not MK2 .

414 is for MK2....

ToT of Engine that too from America is not possible .
There is a proposal for joint dev of new type of engine with America under the recent defense pact but we all know that won't be happening...

Please do introduce yourself ...
 

Zebra

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ToT of Engine that too from America is not possible .
There is a proposal for joint dev of new type of engine with America under the recent defense pact but we all know that won't be happening......
If I am not wrong, it is possible, but Indian govt don't want it to become possible.

If they really want it to become possible, then they could have preferred to sign those three basic agreements.

But then two stooges, super duper Modi and super duper Parriker.

They are the culprits.
 

Pulkit

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If I am not wrong, it is possible, but Indian govt don't want it to become possible.
NO buddy U are wrong. The engine technology exist in very few nations and US is one of them . they can make money by selling the product many times more than what they will make by selling the technology....
Give me an example where 100% of technology has been shared by US with any country...


It is nt India but US .

Thats why there was a option made for jv for engine.

If they really want it to become possible, then they could have preferred to sign those three basic agreements.

But then two stooges, super duper Modi and super duper Parriker.

They are the culprits.
I beg to differ again under Modi Ji and Parrikar sir things have started rolling which were stand still under Antony "No Deal NO Scan The Biggest Scam" defense minister.
 

Compersion

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP1000AP1000

In 2008 and 2009, Westinghouse made agreements to work with the State Nuclear Power Technology Corporation (SNPTC) and other institutes to develop a larger design, the CAP1400 of 1,400 MWe capacity, possibly followed by a 1,700 MWe design. China will own the intellectual property rights for these larger designs. Exporting the new larger units may be possible with Westinghouse's cooperation.[32] In September 2014 the Chinese nuclear regulator approved the design safety analysis following a 17-month review.

Above example would be one that possibly fitting well into TOT and upgraded GE engine. but some say it is easier to design a nuclear plant vs jet engine and even the critical use of it (i personally think for us its not jet engine capability but about time)

The Potential for big business and long term connection (s). - am sure the synergy that GE wants to have is more enduring (especially with its tentacles across its business group in India and potential for more)

Perhaps this touches into the complex India and USA relations ...

American Indians are still those red feathered ones ... And our relations with Israel is only according to old religious annotations ...

The contempory and easiness of the building block is often overlooked when it is right in front of the face
 

avknight1408

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No rafale . No fgfa. No tejas. IAF is doomed.
http://idrw.org/tejas-mk-ii-maiden-flight-likely-in-2019-defence-minister/
Tejas Mk. II maiden flight likely in 2019: defence minister




The Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk. II fighter is only likely to achieve its maiden flight in 2019, and become operational in 2022. The disclosure was made in India’s parliament by defence minister Manohar Parrikar following a query from a colleague.

He adds that when the Mk. II was sanctioned in 2009, the estimated development cost was Rs24 billion ($389 million), with a project completion date set for 2018.

Only after 2022 will the jet be inducted into the Indian air force.

The Tejas Mk. II will be powered by the General Electric F414 engine, as compared to the less powerful F404 that powers the Tejas Mk. I, which received initial operational clearance in 2013, but which has been plagued with delays and problems.

Earlier this year, India’s Comptroller and Auditor General issued a damning report of the aircraft, which was developed by the country’s Aernautical Development Agency. The report condemned the aircraft on a range of parameters, from pilot protection to internal fuel capacity.

The Mk. II, which is seen as having the potential to rectify the issues found with the Mk. I, and will have improvements such as active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an improved electronic warfare suite, and other improvements. Much of the equipment will developed indigenously in India
 

sorcerer

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With Tejas Mk-II years away, HAL asks Air Force to buy Tejas Mk-1-A

HAL has aimed a serious blow at the Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), with a letter telling the Indian Air Force (IAF) that it does not have the manpower to work on developing an improved version of the current Tejas Mark I.

The Bengaluru-based public sector aviation monolith says its engineers are already stretched with existing projects, including the Tejas production line, design and prototype manufacture of a basic trainer aircraft, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40); and the testing and production of the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

HAL has suggested that, instead of waiting for the Tejas Mark II the IAF should buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A, an interim fighter that would be more capable then the Mark I, but less than the Mark II will be.

Business Standard has learned of a heated debate under way between the user of the Tejas, the IAF; its designer, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); and its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The IAF has already committed to buying 40 Tejas Mark I. In addition, the air force has indicated it will buy four-to-five squadrons (80-100 fighters) of the Tejas Mark II when it is ready.

HAL worries about the future of its production line after it delivers 40 Mark I fighters by end-2019. It plans to build four Tejas Mark I by March 2016; another eight by March 2017; and crank up production to 16 fighters annually by March 2018. After 2019, the production line would idle till the Tejas Mark II enters production.

Senior HAL and ADA officials agree the Tejas Mark II is unlikely to enter production till 2023-24. Developing the Mark II involves fitting in a more powerful engine --- the General Electric F-414INS6 replacing the current F-404IN --- and upgrading avionics and weaponry. With prototype development likely to take till 2019, another three to four years would go in flight-testing the Tejas Mark II and preparing production drawings.

HAL, therefore, wants the IAF to buy 80 Tejas Mark I-A to keep the production line occupied from 2020 to 2023-24.

The Mark 1-A would be faster and more agile than the current Mark I. Developing it would involve shaving off 800 kilogrammes from the current fighter, especially from systems like the landing gear, which are currently "over-engineered", or built heavy, for safety. HAL also proposes to remove 300 kg of dead weight distributed across the Mark I to balance it evenly.

HAL argues that the Mark I's GE F-404IN engine, which generates 84 kiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust, would meet the IAF's performance requirements, if one tonne is shaved off the Tejas Mark I's empty weight of 6,500 kg. In that case, the GE F-414INS6 engine's 98 kN of thrust would be needed only for the naval Tejas, which must take off from the short runway of an aircraft carrier deck.

The IAF and ADA are taken aback by HAL's reluctance to participate in developing the Mark II. Even though the Tejas project is managed by ADA --- a branch of the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- HAL has developed important components. Besides many smaller systems, HAL designed the Tejas structure, its undercarriage and electrical supply system. It would have to upgrade these for the Mark II.

"We have completed the preliminary design of the Tejas Mark II, but now the detailed design will be done. HAL would have to refine and upgrade the systems it developed for the Tejas", points out a senior ADA official.

HAL's withdrawal stems from its deep-rooted concern over the Tejas assembly line, which was established at a cost of Rs 1,556 crore, with HAL paying half and the remaining shared between the IAF and navy. Keeping the line running is essential, so that skilled manpower does not have to be redistributed; and a steady flow of orders can be placed on sub-vendors.


HAL sees a four-year gap between the last Tejas Mark I and the first Tejas Mark II as seriously disruptive. Building 80 Tejas Mark I-A is a way of bridging that gap.

However, the IAF and ADA point to HAL's poor record of adhering to manufacturing schedules. They say HAL, which is more than a year late in building the Tejas Mark I, is unlikely to build and deliver 40 Tejas Mark I by 2019. So far, the Tejas line has built just one fighter.

"We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance," says a senior IAF officer.

To overcome HAL's difficulties with building and assembling the Tejas Mark I, ADA proposes to adopt a new production model for the Mark II. The DRDO's aerospace chief, K Tamilmani, tells Business Standard that seven private sector companies will be chosen to manufacture the fighter's modules (systems and sub-systems). HAL will be responsible for integrating them and testing and delivering them to the IAF.

"If we have to accelerate production and build the Tejas Mark II to the requisite quality and quantity, HAL cannot be saddled with responsibility for everything. Instead, private companies will build modules, while HAL will be lead integrator," says Tamilmani

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...rce-to-buy-tejas-mark-1-a-115081201951_1.html
 

Kharavela

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Tejas would meet our requirements: Indian Air Force chief


Pinning hope on India's indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, on Thursday was optimistic that the jet, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would would meet requirements of the force.

"Obviously, the Tejas is a very good bet because we need to go indigenous. It may not be best in the world but obviously it will meet some of our requirements," Raha told journalists after reviewing the security scenario in the northeast with commanders from the Eastern Air Command here.

"We want them in large quantities and larger numbers so plan are afoot to improve its quality is likely more and produce them in larger numbers some more to fill the void that the IAF has more or likely to have it in the future as the legacy fleets get decommissioned and therefore, Tejas will be one of our mainstay," he said.

"Towards that I think Make in India or indigenous production is what the government of the country is taking of so there will be a lot of fast tracking in this directions to have Make in India projects to replace these aircraft will make sense," he said.

On the Rafale deal, Raha said all plans are in place and a lot of activity is on for new acquisitions to replace the ageing fleet of the Indian Air Force.

"Everybody knows about that there are issues with the legacies of some of the fleet and they need to be replaced. Obviously they cannot carry on for too long. So, all the plans are in place...for new acquisitions to replace the older aircraft," he said.

Stating that there were various reasons the deal for 126 MMCRA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) could not fructify, Raha said the government had taken the decision to acquire 36 Rafale jets in flyaway condition after commitments were made at the highest level in France and India.

"I am very hopeful that it will be through much faster than the normal process," he said.

Noting that the Eastern Air Command is a priority area, Raha admitted that in the past few decades, the Indian Air Force had been concentrating more on the western theatre.

"A lot of infrastructure and assets has come up in those areas and we are quite well off in terms of our capability. But the eastern part of the country did not get as much attention it deserved. Therefore, we had some gaps in our capability but all of you know there is a lot of work (to be done) in this regard to bring up our capability," he said.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ts-indian-air-force-chief-115081301927_1.html
 

3The Crossbow

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Tejas would meet our requirements: Indian Air Force chief


Pinning hope on India's indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, on Thursday was optimistic that the jet, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would would meet requirements of the force.

"Obviously, the Tejas is a very good bet because we need to go indigenous. It may not be best in the world but obviously it will meet some of our requirements," Raha told journalists after reviewing the security scenario in the northeast with commanders from the Eastern Air Command here.

"We want them in large quantities and larger numbers so plan are afoot to improve its quality is likely more and produce them in larger numbers some more to fill the void that the IAF has more or likely to have it in the future as the legacy fleets get decommissioned and therefore, Tejas will be one of our mainstay," he said.

"Towards that I think Make in India or indigenous production is what the government of the country is taking of so there will be a lot of fast tracking in this directions to have Make in India projects to replace these aircraft will make sense," he said.

On the Rafale deal, Raha said all plans are in place and a lot of activity is on for new acquisitions to replace the ageing fleet of the Indian Air Force.

"Everybody knows about that there are issues with the legacies of some of the fleet and they need to be replaced. Obviously they cannot carry on for too long. So, all the plans are in place...for new acquisitions to replace the older aircraft," he said.

Stating that there were various reasons the deal for 126 MMCRA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) could not fructify, Raha said the government had taken the decision to acquire 36 Rafale jets in flyaway condition after commitments were made at the highest level in France and India.

"I am very hopeful that it will be through much faster than the normal process," he said.

Noting that the Eastern Air Command is a priority area, Raha admitted that in the past few decades, the Indian Air Force had been concentrating more on the western theatre.

"A lot of infrastructure and assets has come up in those areas and we are quite well off in terms of our capability. But the eastern part of the country did not get as much attention it deserved. Therefore, we had some gaps in our capability but all of you know there is a lot of work (to be done) in this regard to bring up our capability," he said.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ts-indian-air-force-chief-115081301927_1.html
Hi IDF .... been years since i logged in and took part in Tejas fiasco .. i remember i was in my school when i first got to know about this machine and its been 10+ years since then ... :)

Hopefully the Cindrella will be finally in sky .

Though not in favor of this jet but we need to manufacture some of these to create industry base in manufacturing in India. specially considering the avionics package is reasonably good. With amca a distant dream rafale being costly enough to rip the defese budget apart , I wish a more capable jet or a rip off of mig- 29 perhaps with twin GE engine and israeli or rbe 2 radar with iris t missile and astra / derby/mica /python/meteor .it will save time and effort both to copy mig 29 and bringing a fearsome jet in sky. But then again it seems ada/drdo doesn't wish to work hard and hal as always I bet on their lazy asses.

It will be interesting though if IAF ask to stop this programme the way they said to stop the never ending development of sitaara jet trainer which resulted in costing lives of many pilots flying older jets. :)
 

no smoking

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP1000AP1000

In 2008 and 2009, Westinghouse made agreements to work with the State Nuclear Power Technology Corporation (SNPTC) and other institutes to develop a larger design, the CAP1400 of 1,400 MWe capacity, possibly followed by a 1,700 MWe design. China will own the intellectual property rights for these larger designs. Exporting the new larger units may be possible with Westinghouse's cooperation.[32] In September 2014 the Chinese nuclear regulator approved the design safety analysis following a 17-month review.
Generally, American will only do TOT with China in 2 scenarios:
1. They believe Chinese will archive breakthrough within 2 years;
2. Chinese get some technologies they are interested in.
 

Compersion

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Generally, American will only do TOT with China in 2 scenarios:
1. They believe Chinese will archive breakthrough within 2 years;
2. Chinese get some technologies they are interested in.
How about this (not exactly American but with obvious linkage):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Spey

and

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ws9.htm

Thats two areas where PRC has had support (Nuclear and Jet Engines). Two areas which are highly safeguarded.

I wont touch base on the economic trade reasons (US and PRC and others trade and deficit and surplus reasoning). Also the cost and the time it took to build. But surely there is TOT. 2 years is a bit outlandish and also the acceptance of using it more and above anything else.

My reference was to TOT between India and USA. Whatever the reasons with PRC it is there clear and present.

Why would GE be held away from doing a big deal with India for TOT and engines and also having a large R&D setup in India that would help and benefit GE in the long term.

Thats my question - perhaps USA and India relations are more complex and PRC and USA relations are simple and deals can happen like the two above far more easily ... perhaps we Indians are confused for the red feathered ones. Perhaps our relations with Israel is only in relgious text and has nothing contemporary in status. India and USA relations are really too complex it seems. Perhaps we need disagreement to be closer. Perhaps we needs a Hank Paulson type of disagreement.

Are there more examples in PRC ??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11

(Yep that is a Russian example)

Can GE be present if India has TOT arrangements with other nations !! Answer is there in PRC. And many say India observes rule of law ??
 
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tsunami

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If HAL was able to reduce weight of Tejas, what they were doing from last 14 years??
 

ezsasa

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If HAL was able to reduce weight of Tejas, what they were doing from last 14 years??
That would mean they are confident enough to play around with the design, albeit after 14 years .
 

3The Crossbow

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That would mean they are confident enough to play around with the design, albeit after 14 years .
It is no an easy thing to play around with a design specially since the size of Tejas-1 is very small not much they can do.

But there hope is on GE - 414 higher thrust to make things better. Though the energy it leaks during turns i doubt can be improved much even with this.

Also when ADA/DRDO say that the jet is made up of composite it does not mean that the quality of composite used for Tejas are as good as used by Rafale.

Simply speaking higher thrust, increase in internal fuel and reduction of weight by 400 - 500 kg is what they are targeting.
But the increase in weight of the engine and increase in size of aircraft will neutralize the effect of increase thrust but the mk2 will still perform better than tejas mk1.

By that time we may hear the news that ADA/DRDO are counting on the improved GE engine with say 110KN thrust. :)
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Tejas Mk2

should be able to carry & fire

1. Astra Mk2
2. Brahmos NG
3. Air Launched Nirbhay
4. Fighter launched version of Helina ( higher range IRST target hand off LOBL / LOAL)
5. Different warhead / use version of Helina (not only tank busters)
 

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