A young Chinese protest rocketing house-prices by living in a tent in Shanghai subway

Discussion in 'General Multimedia' started by badguy2000, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    One young Chinese protested rocketing houst-price by living a tent in Shanghai subway.

    the young guy earn 5000 RMB( about 35000 rupees) /month,but with such a salary, he has no chance to buy a house in Shanghai.

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  3. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    so where is communism?
    as i understand communism is all about state control which includes affordable housing, food rationed, medical facilities, transport etc...
    so you accept china is actually capitalist??
     
  4. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    every chinese knew it ten years ago.

    it is a suprise that many forieigners still don't know it until now.

    there is a CHinese joke:

    A:" what is Deng Xiaoping best at ?"

    B:" turning right while lighting the left cornering lamp"
    (attention: in China, "right" politically means "capitalism" while "left" usually means"communism")
     
  5. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    With 35,000 Rupees /month, I doubt if you can buy a house in Mumbai these days, either (unless you save for like 10 years, only to then qualify to avail a housing loan).
     
  6. sky

    sky Regular Member

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    Could he not buy a home outside shanghai then commute into work,most people on modest pay would be hard pressed to buy a home in any of the major world citys.

    Question i wont to know is what help do the the chinese govenment offer to first time buyers.And is it enough to make a differance.

    I find it strange the chinese govenment buys us debt and is in possession of huge dollar reserves .Which assit them to keep wages low in china but does not help in raising living standards.
     
  7. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    China is facing a problem that is created by their rapid break-neck growth in the major cities.

    Think about this for a minute: whenever you have a developing country that is going all out to completely overhaul and reshape the skyline of its major cities - you are going to create a major property price bubble inflation and the guys who had all the inside knowledge and money are going to buy up the key properties early and make a killing.

    But when you do this in a very short time frame 10 - 20 years....like China does - the whole property market goes crazy, and the price escalates because anyone with spare cash is going to use it to acquire real estate. The real estate speculators are the ones that drive the market crazy.

    In this type of scenario, Real estate property returns are much higher than anything you can make in the stock market, or anywhere else. The market then completely defies logic, and takes off on a tangent, until the speculators get out of the market when the bubble finally bursts and prices crash.

    This is basically what happens when major cities suddenly start growing or changing very rapidly in a short time span.

    It eventually reaches a point where even a well-paid executive/professional who makes a salary in the top 10% - 20% range of the professional salary scale in that city cannot afford a decent single family home or condo within the city because speculators have priced him out of the market.

    This is the same everywhere in the world !!
     
  8. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    well,in CHinese cities , maintaining a car costs much,because parking fees and license fees cost much. Chinese government does so to encourage public transportations.

    Besides, Shanghai is such a big city that it is almost impossible to commute to work whiling living outside Shanghai
     
  9. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Contradictio in Terminis?

    Yes there's growth, but in a big city, rapid inflation in property prices can't be checked. The only problem here is that too many young professionals are seeking to buy houses, instead of renting accommodation and saving up more to buy houses. That's probably because housing outside big cities is dirt cheap. So growth can't be blamed. Indeed expensive reality in big cities is a problem everywhere in the world.
     
  10. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Its not a contradiction in terms - you missed my point.

    Yes, its true that real estate in major cities is generally much more expensive, but there is a major difference between prices going up 5 - 15 % a year, versus the price of a house doubling within 3 to 4 years.

    In most major cities in Western countries when there is a healthy demand prices usually go up anywhere from 7 - 15 % a year. This is already quite large given that the prices are already high.

    I would include most big US cities and London and Paris in this category.
    As a matter of fact in this lousy economy, the housing prices in the past 2 years in all major US cities have been a 0 - 5% rise and in many cities even negative.

    Compare that with major cities in China and in places like Vietnam etc, where prices can double in 3 or 4 years. You are talking about anywhere from 20% - 35 % rise per year. These are the kind of numbers that are driven by speculators.

    It is simply not sustainable and will eventually burst.

    My point was that if a major established city for whatever reason goes thru a huge transformation - like in China or for that matter anywhere, you are going to see this type of phenomenon.
     
  11. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    That's becauses houses in the 'west' (specifically the US), are selling for peanuts after the subprime crisis, though they're supposed to maintain a 'healthy' inflation if the economy is OK (like it was in the '90s and early '00s.) Whereas, cities like those in India and China are part of growing economies, people are moving into the cities in large numbers for jobs, hence the supply is bound to respond to the demand by inflating the prices.
     
  12. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Houses in the US are not selling for peanuts !! Dont believe everything you read in the media.

    Let me give you a more realistic view of what is happening here in the US.

    The subprime crisis has affected certain cities like Detroit and some cities in Florida like Miami and Las Vegas, Nevada.
    In Detroit it was mainly job-loss and in Vegas and Miami it was overbuilding during the boom years. In these cities foreclosures caused by the subprime crisis, job-loss, and overbuilding have hammered prices by about 40 - 70% in some cases, depending on the neighbourhood.

    But most expensive US cities like San Francisco, Chicago, NYC, Seattle etc have only seen prices drop by 0 - 20% from the highs of 2006-2007 period. Here in San Jose the prices dropped by 10-20% last year and now they are back up to where they were in 2007.
     
  13. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Living in China is growing harder and harder. Housing prices are so expensive entire cities lay empty. The casino attitudes of Macua have infected housing market and speculation runs rampant. With trillions being pumped into the economy, most of it is going to bad assets and leaving people with low incomes homeless. When the market corrects itself, China will have one major test of emergency response. Only hope the government is up to it, after all, it is they who are causing it.
     
  14. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    In many of the markets you mentioned, houses are being sold for 20-30 cents on the dollar from the original mortgage. When a $300,000 home goes for $80,000 it can be said it went for "peanuts." Millions of Americans are being kicked out of their homes thanks to high unemployment and variable rate mortgages. The banques have hoarded all the TARP funds to buy out smaller competition and return the rest. Instead of lending, they are only jacking up their rates and penalties to increase their profit margin. The US government has failed to give relief to the people who need it the most. It must really kick when these same people have no healthcare.
     
  15. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Again you exaggerating the facts on the ground. I live in the US and I have many close personal friends in many major US cities.

    There are very few cities in the US today, where you can buy a house for 20-30 cents on the dollar. Besides Detroit and maybe some Condos in Miami, I cant think of any other city where that is true.

    Saying that millions of American are kicked out of their homes is relative.
    Home ownership in the US is over 60%. Even if 5% of those homes are in foreclosure, it ends up being in the millions because the US population is over 350 million.

    Your comment about the government not helping home owners in trouble is complete bunk. I personally know 2 to 3 friends who lost jobs or are under-employed that have had the interest rates for home loans significantly reduced by banks thru special government programs. The savings from these interest rate reductions can run into the hundreds of thousands over the lifetime of the loan.

    Like I said earlier - dont believe everything you read in the press.
     
  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The tent guy is an *****. And I personally feel any salaried individual who tries buying a house by taking a loan early in his career is an *****.

    I bet the tent guy is living away from his family. So, he's living alone. This is what I recommend. Find a house for rent near your place of work. Get 2 or 3 of your office peers, in a similar situation, to share the rent. Do some Carpooling everyday. All of this leads to increased savings and a lot of money to party.

    Roommates or housemates are very beneficial if your family is in a different city. It is normally your girlfriend or your roommate who will help you out in case of emergencies like sickness or bail you out of jail. I know, because my friends were there in that pseudo-rave party in Bangalore some months ago. They were arrested and bailed out by friends.

    If you are one of those wise guyz who managed to buy a house after paying 50-70% of your salary in interest every month, then here's a new flash. Get out before you are in deepsh*t. Follow the above advice, rent out your property or lease it to some other family(not your own). Make sure the rent you get is close to or greater than the interest you are paying. Now manage the house for rent near you office thingy, it will definitely improve the quality of your life.

    Buy a house when you get married or when your rich uncle dies leaving behind a big fortune. Someday you will get married to someone(guy, girl who cares). This will give you 2 sources of income. Then buy a house. This time your house will be bigger and prettier than what you contemplated buying before. Your bank will be happier and will give you more benefits too. Houses are expensive, never live beyond your means, you will only blow your valve.
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Do the couple people you know account for a serious sample of the market? Of course not.

    There are several dozen cities where the property markets collapsed. The top 20 cities are down 27% from their 2006 peak. You will find several million of the hardest hit going for the 20-30% of the highest.

    And if you don't think there are seriously cheap properties, think again... peanuts

    House prices plummet in Detroit, Indianapolis, Cleveland - Boing Boing

    You don't know the population of your own country? You are off by about the amount of the totality of continental France. Having a perpetual forclosure rate isn't just affecting 5% of the population, but that revolving door affects far greater numbers.

    It doesn't help when they can't make the payments. Even those who still have jobs are deliquent. Mortgage, auto-loans, credit card deliquents are at record highs which is going to lead to record bankruptcies. Americans spend like there is no tommorow without the funds and the US government encourages it.

    Open your eyes friend, America is broke. Private debt stands at $44 trillion. With the public debt added, a family of four owes nearly a million dollars. There is no way it can ever be paid back.
     
  18. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Armand2REP, I dont want to get into an endless back and forth with you on this subject, but you should really stick to France, and not talk about countries that you know diddly jack about !!

    The link that you posted failed to mention one important thing that only the locals know.

    The reason there are houses that sell for $1000 in places like Detroit, Cleveland, Philadelphia, etc, is because these houses are located in a drug-infested, crime and gun-violence ridden ghettos within the inner city.
    These are the American version of Slums !!

    Most normal people will not live in these areas even if you gave them the house for free, or even if you sold it for $1 (One dollar) or even if you paid them to live there.

    I lived in the Detroit suburbs for 10 years, and you couldnt "pay me" to live in an inner city ghetto there.

    So these extreme examples are not in any way reflective of the average real-estate market, but they make a good news story because it is such an extreme exaggerated case and they attract a lot of reader attention.

    BTW: the official US population is 305 million, but dont forget the illegal immigrants who are not counted in the census who make up anywhere from 10 million - 20 million(maybe more and these people do buy homes too) and then there are lot of people who do not get counted in the census because they have simply fallen off the grid - homeless people, tax-evaders, etc, etc. estimates are maybe up to 10 mil or more.

    That's why the unofficial number is more like 340 - 350 million.

    I do agree with you that credit-card debt is quite high compared to other countries, and delinquencies are up. But these things were mainly because of the artificially low interest rates. When the interest rates go up, consumer behaviour will change.
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Frankly, you don't know what I know. As my father always said "assumptions are the greatest weakness."

    I think everyone is well aware of ghettos. These homes are recent forclosures on new buys. People don't buy new to move to the ghetto, they move out.

    You assume these are ghetto areas. Ghetto properties are largely plots that have been owned for a generation or two where people already own their homes. These forclosures are happening in neighbourhoods that were full of auto, steel, and other workers and their famlies. Blue collar neighbourhoods, not slums.

    Thats good, these forclosed homes were in your type of area among others, not largely the ghetto.

    They are the extreme end of a bad market, but the fact any property in the US can go for $1,000 is a testament to how bad it really is getting.

    Estimates include all legal residents, illegals are not counted but then you wouldn't want to count them considering how bad off they are. Illegals cannot buy property and get a mortgage without an SSN.

    If that is the case then 100 million people in the US are living in hell. Fortunately, that is an exaggerated figure and only 60 million are in poor straights. US Census Bureau estimates 2008 pop at 305 million. Those are the only people who are capable of getting mortgages.

    Credit card debt and all other forms of private debt. So many millions are going bankrupt paying for basic healthcare services it is absurd that a leading world country could do this to their people. A nation is only as good as how it treats the least and America is proving to be for the rich. Whatever happened to the American deam? Seems like a distant memory.
     
  20. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Armand2REP....its a waste of time arguing with you.

    Despite spending 10 years in Detroit and having countless friends who live and are homeowners in various part of the tri-county detroit area; you seem to know more about the place than me !!

    You are one of those guys who will just argue for the sake of arguing !!

    I've been living in various parts of the US for 25 years and have lived in 5 major cities, but you still seem to think you know the place better than me.

    Illegals cant buy property or get a SSN.....dude, you need to come and visit California.

    Despite what you think Armando...I repeat, you dont know jack about the United States !!!
     
  21. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Detriot is only one of many cities effected by this disaster. You apparently don't want to believe how bad the situation really has gotten in many areas of your country. That is fine if you don't want to face it and call it media bais. This is a common position taken by Americans who want to believe they are the top of the world.
     

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