A mere 90,000 assault rifles a year manufactured in India

Godless-Kafir

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In OTA & IMA`s Insas is same as the one issued on the field..


QBZ-95 is a not good as its Iron sights are poor compare to Insas..
Also Its 5.8x42 rounds start falling at 250m where SS109 5.56mm go straight till 300m or more..

Penetration is more compare to 5.8 but 5.8 have better punching power than 5.56mm..
Chinese are experimenting and may replace 5.8 by 6.5mm/6.8mm in future...
At 6.8mm caliber the recoil would be extremely hard to handle at automatic mode or even short burst mode.Moreover for this reason the AK-47 has very poor accuracy and high recoil rate.
 

Kunal Biswas

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At 6.8mm caliber the recoil would be extremely hard to handle at automatic mode or even short burst mode.Moreover for this reason the AK-47 has very poor accuracy and high recoil rate.
6.8mm is deigned to give the punch of M43 and range of SS109 5.56mm, Recoil is ok for semi and burst mode..

Full Auto is better in MG..

Besides PLA is using 5.8X42mm in auto..
 

Tshering22

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Most indigenous weapon systems especially in small arms industry are being rejected on purpose. Though army cites issues like "more recoil, too powerful for short barrel" etc, most of the experimental versions of INSAS have pretty much similar configurations to foreign made assault rifles and still get rejected. This I believe is due to strong lobbies of foreign firms working in our armed forces that have to be rooted out. Tavors were initially bought in numbers despite knowing that they had troubles when Israeli war on lebanon took place. However, due to avoiding negative publicity, the Army went to Israel later complaining despite knowing certain problems. Same way, when Army insiders knew that Arjun will make it big, they immediately pressed MOD to sign the T-90 contract for en masse production. There were even reports of sabotage attempts in Arjun. Though I wouldn't trust TOI entirely, I think we all know the presence of foreign lobbies in our country's armed forces.

Many IAF, IN and IA officers have been caught working for foreign firms and hence creating problems for our indigenous programmes. This seems to be no different a case. I mean we have been working on license manufacturing small arms for so many years since the Soviet days; we've made far more complex missile programmes successful; how difficult is it to design a state-of-the-art assault rifle? If we use common sense it is pretty clear: Army has a strong lobby for foreign arms the most followed by IAF while Navy is the strongest proponent of domestic production on all 3.

Ray sir and other military professionals might want to disagree with me owing to the nature of their profession and their service to the government; but truth cannot be hidden. Army's right now the most corrupt branch in entire defense forces and the result is for all to see with the number of issues that are coming up for the past 5-6 years; whether it is scams, sabotage attempts, repeated rejection citing different excuses all the time, poor condition of entry-level soldiers at borders etc. This is followed by IAF in corruption.
 

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Its heard that paramilitary forces like CRPF are gonna get Tavors coz they find AK and INSAS not upto the mark to counter maoists....but how this is gonna help those men who doesnt even know the basic principles of warfare and are substandard in weapon management as compared to their enemies?Its an important point to note that tavors need better handling than AKs and SLR and insas to bring out a change...
This would only help in Maoists obtaining some Tavors unless there is an improvement in weapon management by paramil....why cant paramilitary forces use AK103s which have both accuracy and same hitting power of an AK47?

sorry if i had posted in a wrong place....
 

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Most indigenous weapon systems especially in small arms industry are being rejected on purpose. Though army cites issues like "more recoil, too powerful for short barrel" etc, most of the experimental versions of INSAS have pretty much similar configurations to foreign made assault rifles and still get rejected. This I believe is due to strong lobbies of foreign firms working in our armed forces that have to be rooted out. Tavors were initially bought in numbers despite knowing that they had troubles when Israeli war on lebanon took place. However, due to avoiding negative publicity, the Army went to Israel later complaining despite knowing certain problems. Same way, when Army insiders knew that Arjun will make it big, they immediately pressed MOD to sign the T-90 contract for en masse production. There were even reports of sabotage attempts in Arjun. Though I wouldn't trust TOI entirely, I think we all know the presence of foreign lobbies in our country's armed forces.

Many IAF, IN and IA officers have been caught working for foreign firms and hence creating problems for our indigenous programmes. This seems to be no different a case. I mean we have been working on license manufacturing small arms for so many years since the Soviet days; we've made far more complex missile programmes successful; how difficult is it to design a state-of-the-art assault rifle? If we use common sense it is pretty clear: Army has a strong lobby for foreign arms the most followed by IAF while Navy is the strongest proponent of domestic production on all 3.

Ray sir and other military professionals might want to disagree with me owing to the nature of their profession and their service to the government; but truth cannot be hidden. Army's right now the most corrupt branch in entire defense forces and the result is for all to see with the number of issues that are coming up for the past 5-6 years; whether it is scams, sabotage attempts, repeated rejection citing different excuses all the time, poor condition of entry-level soldiers at borders etc. This is followed by IAF in corruption.
That is exactly what it is.A country that has developed so many successful missiles and in the process of developing it's first ICBM not being able to create a decent rifle,that is absolutely absurd.So many alternatives to Insas being developed just to be dropped in the end that does not make sense or does it.It makes sense for the amount of foreign lobbying,but alas we haven't even seen a foreign replacement.Or should i say approval of a weapon is based on the amount of commission being payed.Sorry if i'm being too sarcastic but that is what i think of it.When so much publicity is being given to the multimillion dollar deals of troop carriers and 5th gen fighters and nuclear submarines,i seriously think army too needs an upgrade.
 

Ray

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Tshering22

Weapons are not selected/rejected on whims and fancies or on kickback.

The following agencies are involved:

Prime Minister
Defence Ministry
Finance Ministry
Def Production Ministry
COAS
WE Directorate of the Army
DGI of the MOD
DRDO
DGQA
OFB
The Trial units in all climate and terrain conditions i.e. in all Commands
Their Bde HQs
Their Div HQs
Their Corps HQs
Their Comd HQs.

So many organisations to have a common vested interest!

And at each organisation, approval/ rejection being made by individuals bottom to top. Hence, a host of people giving individual analysis on File!

Also note the power of the RTI and have you not seen the havoc it is doing on corrupt and allegedly corrupt?

Therefore, how fair is it in what you say?


Logan,

ICBMs are not available off the shelf from foreign nations and so whatever is designed indigenously and meets the bill to some extent is accepted. They need not be the best!!

How long did India take to develop the INSAS and when was it accepted?
 
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Virendra

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Tshering22

Weapons are not selected/rejected on whims and fancies or on kickback.

The following agencies are involved:

Prime Minister
Defence Ministry
Finance Ministry
Def Production Ministry
COAS
WE Directorate of the Army
DGI of the MOD
DRDO
DGQA
OFB
The Trial units in all climate and terrain conditions i.e. in all Commands
Their Bde HQs
Their Div HQs
Their Corps HQs
Their Comd HQs.

So many organisations to have a common vested interest!

And each organisation, approval/ rejection being made by individuals bottom to top. Hence, a host of people giving individual analysis on File!

Also note the power of the RTI and have you not seen the havoc it is doing on corrupt and allegedly corrupt?

Therefore, how fair in what you say?
Just wanted to add one more Sir; the Ministry of Home Affairs because weapons in general would include civilian arms as well.

Regards,
Virendra
 

ALBY

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Kunal why the cadets are using INSAS instead of Ak47 in IMA and OTA as most of the officers are seen either with ak47 or 9mm carbine.....i hardly saw any officer with insas....Same was the situation during kargil operations.....
 

Rage

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In OTA & IMA`s Insas is same as the one issued on the field..

NE & J&k you will see mostly AK coz :

1. M43 is very good in close combat..

2. AK relibility in MUD and water is grater than any 5.56mm Rifle..

3. Tango use the same Gun hence Ammo is same as issued ones..

4. Insas spares are to less as its use in CT are less, hence in CT operation IA prefer AK..
This is definitely not true. The quality of rifles issued to IMA/OTA graduates is not the same as the quality of those issued to paramilitaries combating Maoists in the Northeast. One of the members of IFG, 'cottagecheese' has had the pleasure of taking apart and refixing the rifle all his own. And his observations are definitely worth the read, contained in that link I sent you. He has also had the pleasure of interacting and inspecting the rifles of a number of other paramilitary officers. So, his experience is relevant to the North east issue at large.

And I trust his opinion, just as much as I trust yours.


AK-47 is a outstanding rifle specially in CT operations, If you see SOF men on every country use AK-47, AK-47 is a practical rifle, Unique in his own category, And most other just a copy of AK..
It is indeed an outstanding rifle. But how long are we going to use it for? The constant theme of all warfare is evolution. The Ak-47 itself was a fusion of the trigger design of the Remington Model 8, the gas and system lay out of the StG44 and the unlocking runway raceway from the M1 Gargand/M1 Carbine. The INSAS is not a bad idea, combining as it does the best elements of the Ak-47, the 3-round burst modes of the US M16A2, the gas regulator and cutoff similar to the FN FAL, and the charging handle of the HK G3. I have an issue with its production and its quality, not with its concept.


Insas weight is not a problem!
Insas length need to be reduce like Chinese made bull-pups..
How is the INSAS weight not a problem. The INSAS weighs in at about 4.25 kg. The Chinese QBZ-95 weighs a mere 3.25 kg. Every kg. counts, especially when soldiers are overburdened with ammunition, our road access in the remote area's not that great, and soldiers must carry much of their logistics and ammunition by themselves up on the first trip. You want to make it easier, or more difficult for your soldiers on the battlefield?


QBZ-95 is a not good as its Iron sights are poor compare to Insas..
Also Its 5.8x42 rounds start falling at 250m where SS109 5.56mm go straight till 300m or more..
How many soldiers engage each other at 250m? 250m. is quarter of a kilometer away. I'd think those engagement scenarios rare.

Still, that is an advantage. Don't get me wrong. If our 5.56mm bullets can travel 300m. and still bury themselves into the enemy's flesh, I'm all for it.

But the 5.8x42mm has not just a flatter trajectory, it has a higher retained velocity and higher energy downrange as well.


Penetration is more compare to 5.8 but 5.8 have better punching power than 5.56mm..
Chinese are experimenting and may replace 5.8 by 6.5mm/6.8mm in future...
What do you mean by 'punching power'. I fail to grasp the concept.


So thats why MARCOS like AK-103 :)

Every Rifle bolt stuck while firing, It happens when you fire extensively..

Romanian AK are next to Bulgarians AK in terms of quality, Sights are no problem, they are same..
Arre yaar, I'm not talking about the bolt getting stuck after repeated use.

The WASR-10 gets stuck after 2 or 3 rounds.

Yeh dekh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6H_sw-YKOc

http://ak47websites.com/Shooting_FAQ.php
 
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Ray

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This is definitely not true. The quality of rifles issued to IMA/OTA graduates is not the same as the quality of those issued to paramilitaries combating Maoists in the Northeast. One of the members of IFG, 'cottagecheese' has had the pleasure of taking apart and refixing the rifle all his own. And his observations are definitely worth the read, contained in that link I sent you. He has also had the pleasure of interacting and inspecting the rifles of a number of other paramilitary officers. So, his experience is relevant to the North east issue at large.

And I trust his opinion, just as much as I trust yours.




It is indeed an outstanding rifle. But how long are we going to use it for? The constant theme of all warfare is evolution. The Ak-47 itself was a fusion of the trigger design of the Remington Model 8, the gas and system lay out of the StG44 and the unlocking runway raceway from the M1 Gargand/M1 Carbine. The INSAS is not a bad idea, combining as it does the best elements of the Ak-47, the 3-round burst modes of the US M16A2, the gas regulator and cutoff similar to the FN FAL, and the charging handle of the HK G3. I have an issue with its production and its quality, not with its concept.




How is the INSAS weight not a problem. The INSAS weighs in at about 4.25 kg. The Chinese QBZ-95 weighs a mere 3.25 kg. Every kg. counts, especially when soldiers are overburdened with ammunition, our road access in the remote area's not that great, and soldiers must carry much of their logistics and ammunition by themselves on the first trip. You want to make it easier of more difficult for your soldiers on the battlefield?




How many soldiers engage each other at 250m? 250m. is half a kilometer away. I'd think those engagement scenarios rare.

Still, that is an advantage. Don't get me wrong. If our 5.56mm bullets can travel 300m. and still bury themselves into flesh, I'm all for it.

But the 5.8x42mm has not just a flatter trajectory, it has a higher retained velocity and higher energy downrange as well.




What do you mean by 'punching power'. I fail to grasp the concept.




Arre yaar, I'm not talking about after repeated use.

The WASR-10 gets stuck after 2 or 3 rounds.

Yeh dekh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6H_sw-YKOc

http://ak47websites.com/Shooting_FAQ.php




@ Rage,

An interesting post.

I am giving my general observations and not on the interaction that you both are engaged in.

Could you elaborate as to how the INSAS issued to cadets of IMA and OTA not similar to that being used by the PMF in the NE?

Why do you feel that because the AK is used in COIN more extensively than INSAS, the INSAS is not suitable for CT ops?

One aspect that could be remembered is that it has been the practice to use non service weapons in COIN so that service equipment is kept serviceable for actual combat with any external adversary.

Also, The AK 47 is preferred the world over because it is near maintainability free. And it is no secret that a soldier in combat or CT ops is hard pressed for time and is constantly on the 'go'. Thus, time for rest, recoup and refit is at a premium.

The weight of an infantry weapon is material since it is moved manpack. What would be worth noting is that it is not the weapon weight without loaded magazine, but the weight with magazine and the complete pouch ammunition and rifle accessories that the man has to carry. What is the weight of the ammunition in the magazines that carried in the pouch and is categorised as 'pouch ammunition' or 'on man' in the classification of 'First Line' ammunition. First Line is 'on man' and 'unit reserve' (the latter being carried in the F ech). I believe that weight of the Chinese bullet weighs 4.15 grams.

In so far as the effective range of a weapon, it is taken that at 300 yds, it is the maximum range in which a soldier would have engage the enemy and so the weapon has to be effective at the range and the bullet should have the 'stopping power' at that range. In Attack and Defence, there are many targets at 300 yds and it is not rare.

A weapon is designed to meet a multidimensional scenario – attack, defence, CT et al, to mention a few. In defence/attack/CT if a target is suitable and necessary to eliminate at 300 yds, it is eliminated. Therefore, targets are engaged at that distance. For distances beyond, where targets have to be engaged, neutralised or destroyed, there is the 51mm Mortar (for area targets), LMGs (500 yds) and MMGs (upto 1800 yds). There are weapons of various categories for engagement of targets in various distance envelopes.
 

Tshering22

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Tshering22

Weapons are not selected/rejected on whims and fancies or on kickback.

The following agencies are involved:

Prime Minister
Defence Ministry
Finance Ministry
Def Production Ministry
COAS
WE Directorate of the Army
DGI of the MOD
DRDO
DGQA
OFB
The Trial units in all climate and terrain conditions i.e. in all Commands
Their Bde HQs
Their Div HQs
Their Corps HQs
Their Comd HQs.

So many organisations to have a common vested interest!

And at each organisation, approval/ rejection being made by individuals bottom to top. Hence, a host of people giving individual analysis on File!

Also note the power of the RTI and have you not seen the havoc it is doing on corrupt and allegedly corrupt?

Therefore, how fair is it in what you say?


Logan,

ICBMs are not available off the shelf from foreign nations and so whatever is designed indigenously and meets the bill to some extent is accepted. They need not be the best!!

How long did India take to develop the INSAS and when was it accepted?
Well there's where the problem lies you know. I might not be familiar with other countries' system of induction, design development etc of weapons but for some reasons countries like Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa and even Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia are able to produce state-of-art assault rifles in time and successfully for induction much faster and more efficiently than us. No matter how many high-fi agency and committee's names you mention here, bottomline is that the IA doesn't get state of the art weapons of domestic production, design and development, leaving a considerable loophole for foreign lobbies to come in and exploit. I mean if Indonesia and Turkey can create wonderful assault rifle designs, then it is pure sabotage and corruption by IA commanders, MOD and all these fancy agencies involved not to allow INSAS' enhancement to keep the money flowing into foreign pockets.

What matters is the result and not the process, and the result here is that Indian forces don't have a reliable advanced assault rifle platform with multiple firing modes and other enhancements in terms of indigenous production capabilities. Simple as that.
 

Ray

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Tshering,

These are not high flying organisations that I have mentioned.

They are the various organisations that are there overseeing selection, trials and purchase of foreign weapons.

Therefore, it is left to anyone to judge if foreign weapons lobby can 'buy' all the various individuals involved and there are too many to even count, so that their weapon is selected and purchased.

It must also be remembered that there are many lobbyists (as you have seen in the 2G scam). The company that loses out, uses their lobbyists to 'reveal' that there were ulterior reasons why the winner got the deal! The power of the media cannot be underestimated and that has been so well established by the revelation of the Radia tapes. Therefore, anything stated is lapped up by the cynical population at large as the Gospel Truth, when actually they are but half truths.

That money and business houses are involved in everything the govt does, maybe true, if the 2G scam is taken as the benchmark of govt functioning in deals.

It maybe stated that the final negotiation is done by the Price Negotiating Committee (PNC), where influence including political can play a part and the final authority lies with the Ministry and the PM.

As to why a suitable weapon cannot be produced in India, the answer lies with the DRDO. Do visit the various DRDO establishments and you will get the answer. There are fine scientists and engineers there. But given the stifling bureaucracy and empire building, they become 9 to 5 workmen and lose the fire in their hearts and mind which they had when they joined. They also become bureaucrats.

The DRDO, it maybe added, get tremendous amount of finance and they can deliver, if they want. However, delays means more funds since they are to be encouraged so that one day we have a thriving defence self sufficiency, which everyone wants. How are these funds used, visit the DRDO establishments to see for yourself.
 

bengalraider

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I would like to second what Ray Sir has just said, When India attained independence we had the second largest and second most advanced weapons manufacturing base in Asia second only to Japan , Infact in the early fifities Singapore approached us(us being OFB) for technical assistance in order to setup ST ,(we refused and they got help from ISRAEL but that is another story).look at what ST has achieved and where the OFB has gone , the problem is with the work culture at the OFB in general, there is a carrot but there is no stick and that is where the depth of this malaise lies!

Also one reason for many of our troops preferring captured AK's to the INSAS in COIN is simple , in the army the Jawan is responsible for day to day maintenance and cleaning of his service rifle and that is the gun he must present at inspections, using a captured gun while his service rifle is kept neatly wrapped in cellophane in his trunk saves him a lot of work!
 

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