A mere 90,000 assault rifles a year manufactured in India

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Shaitan, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    For a country facing insurgency and militancy, its defence and security forces place orders for only 90,000 5.56mm assault rifles out of a total of 164,000 small and personnel arms a year. This the average yearly production of its ordnance factories.


    According to information given to the Indian parliament by Minister of State for Defence, Mr MM Pallam Raju, the production is largely from three state owned factories, Rifle Factory Ishapore, Small Arms Factory Kanpur and Ordnance Factory Tiruchirapalli.

    Interestingly, there are no private companies manufacturing personnel weapons for military and security forces in India.

    India imports an unspecified of assault weapons, especially AK-47 rifles and other specialized weapons such as for sniper use.

    According to Gunpolicy.org, a U.S. based website tracking small arms all over the world, India military forces have 5.7 million personnel weapons.

    http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?id=5294
     
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  3. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    they will place orders for only the number they require..when we already have 5.7 million guns. why bother for more except for replenishing?
     
  4. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    You know, this saddens me greatly.

    To put this into perspective, a country like the United States with a much smaller populace buys upward of 3,000,000 assault rifles per year. Ofcourse, the United States is heavily gun-ized, with something like 200 million guns in private posession.

    A figure of 90,000 assault rifles produced every year in India is pathetic.

    Two reasons, obviously: 1) The INSAS is not up to par, at least in its practical issue. And 2) we buy, and historically have bought, too many of our small arms from foreign producers. And ofcourse, the kickbacks associated with these producers are legendary.

    I'm looking forward to change in the near future:

    All you gun-supporters and supporters of indigenous armaments, google Indians For Guns online.
     
  5. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    I would like to add another reason is the quality control is the worst thing that can happen in the OFB. Govt Babus need some fire on their seat for making the work done in perfect required manner
     
  6. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    When will they upgrade the infantry high time to make decent BP jacket,Helmets and NVG standard gear for all troops and its not that expensive.
     
  7. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    I bet most of the arms produced in India are of piss poor quality, because we have the ordinance factories of India manufacturing them, they are a government organisation that belongs in the 1800s, i have a friend in one of them (middle management), and from what he told me the organisation is like a dying man, nothing works like it is supposed to (absolutely nothing), the problem with such organisation is even when brilliant people join it the tradition of siht pulls them in and turns them into shite, what is needed is for the top management to be recruited from outside the organisation, along with a gradual replacement of all other managers.

    There is a need a complete change in every layer of management of the Ordinance factories, and all of the workers need to employed on a contract basis, their contract being reviewed only when they perform well.

    And none of that is going to happen to i expect the same babudom, workers union mess to continue.

    As a man earning most of his money from outside government and PSU sector and paying the taxes, it saddens me to see my tax dollars being wasted to feed these incompetent workers and managers of government companies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  8. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    The biggest single weakness of Indian society is the lack of a pragmatic, result-orientated culture.

    Its not a lack of brainpower or talent. It is a mindset that is slow to adapt to change, and will only change when it becomes a last resort.
    It is the kind of mentality that only attract mediocre individuals to government run industries and jobs.

    A pragmatic smart government would have encouraged a few small private industries to manufacture all small arms and encouraged competition between them.
    These 60-70 year old ministers and senior civil-servants will never take India to status of a top nation.
     
  9. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    I agree, i have seen the workings of TATA steel and surprised to find it working like a sarkari company, the reason is till they register record losses they have no incentive to change, with them atleast when they do see record losses they will move their asses to change, sarkari people dont even have that to inspire them.

    The government is incapable of supporting private industry over government and PSU in defence and many other sectors, the private industry will itself take a couple of decades to come up to standard if they got complete support today, and that is not happening, so its glorious stupidity of organisation that can not tell their ass from their face for the next 20-30 years, wasting away our tax money(company ka maal, dariya mai daal), the great workers unions fighting for the rights of the great worker who works two hours a day, runs away when supervisors come into the workshop, fakes his attendance of a week in a single day, and the great managers who are as confused about performance figures as they are about the secret of life and universe, all run by the great defence ministry, whos babus follow the great 'Ministry of Government of India' tradition of 3 hour long lunches and playing cards in the sunlight like its all a taxpayer sponsored picnic.

    Aaaaaaah..............
    nothing like the sad realisation of the state of affairs in our dhurandar desh to feel refreshed on a Sunday winter afternoon!
     
  10. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Insas is good enough, Its better than AK in many ways..

    Insas need less maintenance compare to other 5.56 like M4/M16/G-36/ etc..

    Besides all these Insas have a 6cam rail where we can attach any western scopes and thermal where Ak need specialized rail to be fitted..

    AK-47 is robust compare to Insas But lack range and accuracy..




    Indian Army`s faith is in Romanian AKs mostly, I dont know how OFB AK preform on field..
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If your requirement is of one car.

    Would you invest in having a few more cars? And at the same time, wonder where from you will get the money to get your daily needs.

    If 90,000 rifles are being manufactured, does it mean that there is a dearth of rifles in the hands of the Security Forces?

    Are 90,000 rifles being declared BER (Beyond Economical Repair) and hence condemned (the term used to indicate that useful life is over)?

    Is there no reserves at the national level i.e. WWR (War Wastage Reserves).

    Is the WWR getting depleted?

    The manufacture of weapons is based on planning to include wastage as also taking into account the slippages that may occur by the factories.

    Import of specialised weapons including specialist rifles are need specific and which are not produced in the country.

    Therefore, what is the requirement of producing weapons that are not needed and stockpiling them to rust, even under ideal storage conditions.

    My AAA Rechargeable batteries that I bought a year ago, I discovered that even though still in the factory pack has lost its charge since I had forgotten all about them for over a year!

    Even the best 'mothballed' equipment can lose its optimum efficiency if not used for a long period of time.

    Even 'mothballed' tanks/ other equipment are used in rotation in the regiment to ensure that they all are fighting fit at all times.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  12. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    Sir, what were your views on the quality(safety, maintainability, reliability) of the equipment supplied by the OFB factories, Is the Indian army getting the quality requirements it specifies from the OFB factories?
     
  13. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    well,limited production might be caused by limited demand.
    after all, India has enough imported guns already.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I would like to duck that question! ;) :)

    Usually, it is OK.
     
  15. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Kunal, you've got to be kiddin' me.

    Aap zara yeh to dekho: http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=8544&page=6&highlight=INSAS


    The INSAS may be top notch when it is issued to trainees and recruits at the IMA/OTA, etc. But in standard issue to the Army, particularly in the North-east, where they're combating insurgents, its quality gets progressively worse.

    The INSAS may be an improvement over the Ak-47, I agree. But, if we want to truly be a modern Army of the 21st century, we'll have to stop comparing with outdated assault rifles and start comparing with other Armed forces'.

    The 5.8 mm round, for example, of the Chinese QBZ-59 is known to have a flatter trajectory and deeper penetration than the 5.56 mm round. And the INSAS is far heavier than the standard Chinese issue, which makes heavy use of lightweight composites.
     
  16. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    Its unfair to call ak47 an outdated one...still its the best in terms of practical use...it beats so called finest rifles of great armies of 21st century in the war zones of iraq and afghanistan.....its a point to note that wars are not fought in firing ranges where u just have to aim at trget boards, but in adverse climatic areas....its not fair to call QBZ95 a best one unless it see some action other than target board shooting....
     
  17. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    If you think the Ak47 can be used indefinitely, you're definitely lacking vision for a 21st century Armed force.

    The Romanian AK47 in particular, the WASR-10, has problems with a canted front sight, magazine wobble and the bolt getting stuck while firing.

    I'm not even talking about the QBZ95. I refer to the QBZ59. If you're going to wait for the QBZ95 to 'see some action', you're probably going to wait forever. Most indigenous modern arms systems from third world countries won't see some action for quite some time. That shouldn't prevent you from judging its merits based on its technical specs tho, just as we do for our own LCA, S-73, etc. etc., and taking action accordingly.
     
  18. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    In OTA & IMA`s Insas is same as the one issued on the field..

    NE & J&k you will see mostly AK coz :

    1. M43 is very good in close combat..

    2. AK relibility in MUD and water is grater than any 5.56mm Rifle..

    3. Tango use the same Gun hence Ammo is same as issued ones..

    4. Insas spares are to less as its use in CT are less, hence in CT operation IA prefer AK..



    AK-47 is a outstanding rifle specially in CT operations, If you see SOF men on every country use AK-47, AK-47 is a practical rifle, Unique in his own category, And most other just a copy of AK..



    Insas weight is not a problem!
    Insas length need to be reduce like Chinese made bull-pups..


    QBZ-95 is a not good as its Iron sights are poor compare to Insas..
    Also Its 5.8x42 rounds start falling at 250m where SS109 5.56mm go straight till 300m or more..

    Penetration is more compare to 5.8 but 5.8 have better punching power than 5.56mm..
    Chinese are experimenting and may replace 5.8 by 6.5mm/6.8mm in future...


    So thats why MARCOS like AK-103 :)

    Every Rifle bolt stuck while firing, It happens when you fire extensively..

    Romanian AK are next to Bulgarians AK in terms of quality, Sights are no problem, they are same..
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    In COIN ops, enough of foreign wpns to incl AKs have been captured.

    The AKs are not on the WET (War Establishment Table) and hence while accountable are not service issue wpns.

    It is thus wiser to use non service issue wpns, having the near same capabilities than service weapons.
     
  20. Logan

    Logan Regular Member

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    Whatever the case may be but in India things move at a snail's speed.So many upgrades to the Insas was developed Excalibur,Kalantak each was put to trials none hit mass production, a waste of time in the end.Zittara boasting to be an Indian version of Israeli MTAR ,much hyped but alas no mass production.DRDO F-Insas gun claimed to be being developed since a long time but no news on progress and little chances of success.MSMC said to have been tested and possibly approved but nothing heard since then.Really a sorry state of affairs.
     

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