A Chinese joke called ADIZ

asianobserve

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Are you sure that Chinese is the real target of this korea ADIZ expansion?

Look at the map in the link below

South Korea moves to expand its air defense zone | GlobalPost

Guess whose ADIZ covered the disputed Korea "Leodo" for 44 years----it is Japan, my friend.

So, Chinese just gives Korean an excuse to expand into the area used to be controlled by Japanese alone. It is really a good news for Japanese and Americans.

Now, we have to wait to see if Taiwanese has the gut to expand their ADIZ to cover "Diaoyu Tai".


Haven't you read the title of the news article? Definitely the Koreans extended its ADIZ as a counter-punch to Chinese ADIZ. In the first place when the Koreans asked the Chinese to reverse its ADIZ declaration even at least as far as the areas it (Korea) is claiming the Chinese arrogantly refused. And then after that the Koreans announced that it is contemplating its own ADIZ expansion in reaction to the Chinese unilateral moves. Then after several days the Koreans did indeed announce their own ADIZ expansion. So don't tell me that the Korean actions is primarily directed at Japan and not China. You wish.

The irony here is that the Koreans have been lately warming up to Beijing because of Japan. But when the crucial test came for their new relations China spectacularly flopped no doubt leading Korean policymakers to doubt integrity of its new found closer relations with China. Clearly, China shot itself in the foot here since it was in the cusp of a strategic divide-and rule opportunity in East Asia only to burn it with an ill-thought of ADIZ.
 
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kseeker

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Setting up an ADIZ is quite expensive, most of countries can't afford such a "money burning" game.

Those islands have become a matter of national pride for all the parties involved and who are claiming that, they belong to them which is infact a no mans land !

IMO, all the states who have involved in this dispute can afford their own ADIZs considering thier current economic condition (GDP, PPP etc...). Perhaps it's china which needs to worry about money than those nations in longer run !
 

ice berg

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Those islands have become a matter of national pride for all the parties involved and who are claiming that, they belong to them which is infact a no mans land !

IMO, all the states who have involved in this dispute can afford their own ADIZs considering thier current economic condition (GDP, PPP etc...). Perhaps it's china which needs to worry about money than those nations in longer run !
Last time I checked China is the second biggest economy and well on her way to become the largest. So do share with us your knowledge on the money issue here.

Btw:
China Exports Rise More Than Estimated After Sept. Drop - Bloomberg
China's exports rebounded by more than estimated last month and the trade surplus widened to the biggest this year, helping sustain an economic recovery as leaders gather to map out a blueprint for growth.
 

kseeker

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Last time I checked China is the second biggest economy and well on her way to become the largest. So do share with us your knowledge on the money issue here.

Five myths about China's economy

China's stunning economic rise is one of the biggest stories of this generation. In just three decades since beginning to embrace market economics, China has left its desperate poverty behind to become the world's top exporting nation. The transformation has occurred so quickly that myths and misperceptions abound about the challenges and opportunities that China poses to America and the rest of the world.

1. China will quickly overtake the United States as the world's most powerful economy.


According to a November poll by the Pew Research Center, 44 percent of Americans believe that China is already the world's top economic power, while 27 percent put the United States in that position. That perception is completely at odds with the facts. This year, China's economy is expected to produce about $5 trillion in goods and services. That would put it ahead of Japan as the world's second-biggest national economy, but it would still be barely one-third the size of the $14 trillion U.S. economy and well behind the European Union, if taken as a whole.

One reason China's economy is so big is simply that it has 1.3 billion people. But China's per capita gross domestic product is only one-seventh the U.S. level. And in household living standards, China lags even further. Each year, an average Chinese household consumes one-fourteenth the value of goods and services purchased by an average American household.

And despite its chronic losses in manufacturing jobs, the United States is still the world leader in that arena because its manufacturers excel at high-value products such as airplanes and high-tech equipment, while China still mainly produces low-cost clothing and consumer electronics. In terms of the value of goods, the United States produces more than 20 percent of global manufacturing, or about double China's share.

2. China's vast holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds mean it can hold Washington hostage in economic negotiations.


China has the biggest holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds of any country -- around $1 trillion. Many people think this means China is "America's banker" and that, like a bank, it can withdraw its line of credit by selling off its Treasuries whenever Washington does something Chinese leaders don't like.

But China's Treasury holdings are not like regular loans that a bank extends to a company. They are more like deposits: safe, liquid and carrying a very low interest rate. Like a depositor, China has little ability to tell its bank how to run its business. It can only vote with its feet, by taking its deposits elsewhere -- but its deposits are so huge, there is no other "bank" in the world that can take them. The European and Japanese bond markets are not big enough to absorb that much Chinese cash, nor can China buy enough oil fields, ore mines or real estate to soak up its money. And it can't simply invest all its dollars at home, because doing so could lead to rampant inflation. So like it or not, Washington and Beijing are stuck with each other -- and neither has the power to hold the other hostage.

3. Letting its currency grow in value is the most important thing China can do to reduce its trade surplus.


Some American companies, unions and politicians complain that by keeping a fixed exchange rate between the yuan and the dollar, China is unfairly making its goods cheaper on the world market, thus driving its trade surplus at the expense of its trading partners. Certainly, the exchange rate is important, but it's a mistake to think that letting the yuan rise in value would magically make China's trade surplus disappear. In the late 1980s, Japan allowed the yen to double in value, but its trade surplus didn't budge. Conversely, in 2009 China kept the value of the yuan fixed against the dollar, and its trade surplus fell by a third.

Secretary Treasury Timothy Geithner was in Beijing on Thursday and discussed the currency issue with Chinese economic officials. Most observers -- including China's top economic policymakers -- agree that the yuan should rise in value. But for that move to offer any benefits, it must be accompanied by other policy shifts. By far the most important thing China can do to reduce its trade surplus is to stimulate domestic demand (including demand for imports), something it has started to do through a massive infrastructure spending program. There's some evidence that Chinese households are also beginning to spend more freely as wages rise and people feel optimistic about the future.

4. China's hunger for resources is sucking the world dry and making major contributions to global warming.


It's true that China is now the biggest producer of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming. And it's true that China uses more energy to produce a dollar of its GDP than most other countries, including the United States. But on a per-person basis, China's use of resources is still modest compared with that of rich countries. For instance, despite its rapid increase in car use, China consumes about 8 million barrels of oil a day. The United States consumes about 20 million barrels a day. Put another way, China, with nearly a quarter of the world's population, accounts for less than one-tenth of the world's oil consumption. The United States, with only 5 percent of world population, accounts for nearly a quarter of global oil consumption. Whose appetite is really the bigger problem?

Moreover, unlike the United States, China has recognized that it cannot let its fossil-fuel appetite grow forever and is working hard to improve efficiency. Chinese fuel-economy standards for new cars are higher than America's, for instance, and on average, coal-fired power plants are more efficient in China than in the United States.

5. China's economy has grown mainly through the cruel exploitation of cheap labor.


Every time a developing economy starts growing fast, richer countries accuse it of "cheating" by keeping its wages and exchange rate artificially low. But this isn't cheating; it's a natural stage of development that comes to an end in every country, as it will in China. China has grown in much the same way as other economies we now view as mature and responsible success stories -- including Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. Those nations invested heavily in infrastructure and education, and quickly moved their workers from low-productivity jobs in rural areas to more productive jobs in cities. When rural labor was abundant, wages were low, but they rose rapidly after those surplus workers joined the urban labor force.

China is hitting that spot now: The number of young people of workforce entry age (15 to 24) is projected to fall by one-third over the next 12 years. With young workers more scarce, wages have nowhere to go but up. This is already happening: Last month, Guangdong province (China's main export hub) raised its minimum wage by 20 percent.

China still has plenty of workers moving from the countryside to the cities, but the age of ultra-cheap Chinese labor will soon be gone.

[email protected]

Arthur Kroeber is the managing director of GaveKal-Dragonomics, an economic research firm in Beijing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By William Pesek Jul 19, 2013 3:30 AM GMT+0530Email Print
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Email Print Save Can we please have a moratorium on the word "Likonomics"? Premier Li Keqiang's plans to overhaul the Chinese economy have hardly earned such a grand moniker yet.

Say what you will about "Thatchernomics" or "Reaganomics," but Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan fundamentally altered the British and American economies. No one is rolling their eyes at "Aquinomics," President Benigno Aquino's thus-far successful prescription for the Philippines, the onetime "sick man of Asia." By contrast, Likonomics is a ridiculously premature nod to ideas that are, at best, still on the drawing board and might never come off it.

In Japan, economists and a cheerleading media now seem to realize they bought into "Abenomics" too hastily, creating the myth that Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's revival plan is succeeding when it has only just begun. Game-changing reform efforts take several years to implement. We are a long way from knowing if Li has the skill or political will to manhandle China onto a more sustainable growth path, led by domestic demand.

How will we know? There are three clues to whether Likonomics is more than a hollow slogan.

First, can Li avoid further stimulus? The premier's supposed shock-therapy program already has its own myth: that China is engineering a sharp slowdown. Li doesn't WANT growth to slide toward 5 percent -- no Chinese leader in his right mind would at a time when protests are becoming commonplace. Rather, China's export- and investment-led growth model is burning out on Li's watch.

Magic Wand
Well before Li and President Xi Jinping officially took the reins in March, exports were falling, manufacturing was contracting and economists were downgrading forecasts. Big reforms are always easier when growth is booming. If Li could wave a magic wand and get gross domestic product back into double-digit territory without pumping more air into China's credit bubble, he would in a Shanghai minute. He needs reasonable growth to stabilize his power base and figure out how to turn the economy upside down without crashing it.

At the same time, Li's program is about "deceleration, deleveraging and improving growth quality," according to economist Huang Yiping of Barclays Capital Asia Ltd. in Hong Kong, who is credited with coining the term Likonomics. Carrying it out will hasten China's downshift. The premier is sure to face mounting calls for the government to throw new cash at the economy -- from businesses and from 1.3 billion Chinese, who are becoming more vocal and defiant.

Li himself has pledged that China's growth and employment will stay above a certain floor. That raises doubts about whether he's ready to accept the pain necessary to see through his reforms. Economists are already buzzing about a "Li Keqiang put" not unlike former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan's. More stimulus would only exacerbate China's overcapacity problem and make the eventual debt reckoning bigger and costlier.

Second, is Li ready to allow a headline-grabbing default or two? The secret to China Inc.'s success has been plentiful and mispriced credit. Reckless borrowing, largely through local government-financing vehicles, was the fuel behind China's years of double-digit growth. Special-purpose companies set up by authorities across China used this cheap money to fund giant infrastructure projects.

Companies such as China Rongsheng Heavy Industries Group Holdings Ltd., China's biggest shipyard outside state control, are already begging for bailouts. Entire cities such as Ordos -- a white-elephant project in Inner Mongolia -- need help, too. According to the National Audit Office, the brand of financing vehicles that got Ordos in trouble amassed totaling $1.7 trillion at the end of 2010 (you can bet it's much, much higher now).

Cutthroat Politics
Only after a big default or two will markets begin to price Chinese risk appropriately, allowing Beijing to liberalize interest rates. Is Li willing to accept the consequences -- turmoil in markets, mass unemployment and credit downgrades?

That's nothing compared to the third test: inviting the Communist Party's wrath. There's ample reason to doubt Li's doctorate in economics will help him navigate Beijing's cutthroat politics. If you think Abe faces resistance from vested interests, imagine what awaits Li as he tries to get Communist Party power brokers, ambitious regional leaders, a vast network of state-owned companies and the Chinese people to make sacrifices.

Li must take on thousands of party stalwarts who make millions, or billions, of dollars from dodgy land grabs, insider trading and old-fashioned rent-seeking. Politics will stymie Li's every effort to reduce the state's role in the economy and create the vibrant private sector China needs in order to thrive. We'll have a sense of whether he's serious when the number of unnamed-source gripes in the official media starts to spike.

We are years from knowing if Li can live up to the example set by Deng Xiaoping, who truly did revolutionize China's economic system. If Li can, Likonomics will deserve to go down in history as a model for developing nations everywhere. Until then, let's give the phrase a rest.

(William Pesek is a Bloomberg View columnist.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

ice berg

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Now try to explain your statements here in light of those articles:
Those islands have become a matter of national pride for all the parties involved and who are claiming that, they belong to them which is infact a no mans land !

IMO, all the states who have involved in this dispute can afford their own ADIZs considering thier current economic condition (GDP, PPP etc...). Perhaps it's china which needs to worry about money than those nations in longer run !
Emphasizes on economic conditions, and "those countries".:cool2:
 

kseeker

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Now try to explain your statements here in light of those articles:

I am economic guru however, chinese economy is certainly not a in a good shape what it looks like.

Bottom line is, when one (chinese) says, maintaining ADIZ is not cost effective, that would be applicable to Chinis as well.
 

ice berg

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I am economic guru however, chinese economy is certainly not a in a good shape what it looks like.

Bottom line is, when one (chinese) says, maintaining ADIZ is not cost effective, that would be applicable to Chinis as well.
It depends who you are comparing her with. It certainly brought a smile when you mentioned "those countries" One facing NK and the other one with 250 percent debt to their GDP trying to combat deflation. But I am not an economic guru so I will leave it to you. Let us just say we agree to disagree.:cool2:
 

kseeker

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I am economic guru however, chinese economy is certainly not a in a good shape what it looks like.

Bottom line is, when one (chinese) says, maintaining ADIZ is not cost effective, that would be applicable to Chinis as well.
Please read it as "I am No economics guru"

P.S. Using a regular office network wherein I have no choice but to use IE which is not allowing me to edit the post for any typos or updates.
 

amoy

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I am economic guru however, chinese economy is certainly not a in a good shape what it looks like.

Bottom line is, when one (chinese) says, maintaining ADIZ is not cost effective, that would be applicable to Chinis as well.
u still hvnt got it after so many posts? what xtra cost? before ADIZ was announced do u think Chinis didnt hv any monitoring identifying or intercepting or scrambling in response to UFO entering certain airspace (check PLAAF's clash near Hainan Is. with American EP-3E). with ADIZ Chinis only just made the zone PUBLIC for the sake of compliance and security of stakeholders.

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LTE-TDD

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u still hvnt got it after so many posts? what xtra cost? before ADIZ was announced do u think Chinis didnt hv any monitoring identifying or intercepting or scrambling in response to UFO entering certain airspace (check PLAAF's clash near Hainan Is. with American EP-3E). with ADIZ Chinis only just made the zone PUBLIC for the sake of compliance and security of stakeholders.

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Haha, Don't test their IQ, these guys IQ is beyond what you can imagine!
 

Singh

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What's an ADIZ?
Why the United States, Japan, and China Get It Wrong

China's recent announcement of an Air Defense Identification Zone in the East China Sea has generated a great deal of confusion and alarm. Much of that is a function of the fact that few know what an ADIZ is, what it is for, and why it matters -- including, apparently, the Chinese government and military.

An ADIZ is a publicly defined area extending beyond national territory in which unidentified aircraft are liable to be interrogated and, if necessary, intercepted for identification before they cross into sovereign airspace. The concept is a product of the Cold War: in the 1950s, the United States declared the world's first ADIZs to reduce the risk of a surprise attack from the Soviet Union. Today, the United States has five zones (East Coast, West Coast, Alaska, Hawaii, and Guam) and operates two more jointly with Canada. Other countries that maintain ADIZs include India, Japan, Norway, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom.

In addition to providing an added measure of security, an ADIZ can help reduce the risk of midair collisions, combat illicit drug flows, facilitate search-and-rescue missions, and reduce the need for fighter jet sorties for purposes of visual inspection. This last point is the most important: ADIZs can increase transparency, predictability, and strategic stability by reducing uncertainty on both sides about when, where, and how aerial interceptions might take place. In 1960, for example, the Soviet Union had no clearly established air defense identification zones and procedures, and the resulting confusion led to a U.S. reconnaissance aircraft being shot down over international waters.

There are no international agreements governing any aspect of an ADIZ. States are neither explicitly authorized to establish them nor are they explicitly prohibited from doing so. ADIZs usually extend into what is universally acknowledged to be international airspace, even by the countries that maintain them, and in no way confer any sovereign rights. Off southern California, for example, a U.S. ADIZ stretches more than 400 miles out to sea. Since states have the right to regulate air traffic only over their sovereign territory, countries are not legally obliged to comply with another countries' ADIZ requirements in international airspace, but they tend to do so because of the security and safety benefits to all. An air defense identification zone is about security and safety, not politics or law.

So why did China establish its East China Sea ADIZ?

Reducing the risk of surprise attack cannot have been part of the equation, because there was no real danger of that to begin with. Tensions in the region are undoubtedly high at the moment, but this is not your grandfather's Cold War. No country wants a major shot to the heart of the global economy. The danger of surprise attack is highest when at least one party to a conflict considers war inevitable and thinks that getting in the first blow would deliver a decisive military advantage. To the extent that China's ADIZ has deepened regional fears about China's long-term intentions, it has actually increased this risk.

Also implausible is that China sought to reduce drug smuggling in the East China Sea, which is not a significant drug route. And given the multiple and overlapping maritime jurisdiction claims in the area, there is no shortage of willing search-and-rescue providers. Not surprisingly, neither motive figured in the Chinese defense ministry's statement announcing the establishment of the zone.

The desire to reduce the risk of midair collisions is a marginally more plausible explanation. The problem here is not commercial air traffic, which is already under good regulation in the East China Sea (anyone with an Internet connection can monitor it in real time). Rather, it is military flights, as was demonstrated in 2001 when a U.S. Navy EP-3 collided with an F-8 fighter from the Chinese Navy over the South China Sea.

In the case of military flights, the risk of midair collision primarily stems from conflicting understandings of overflight rights. Most countries insist that their militaries have a right to fly freely in international airspace. The United States allows this even within its own ADIZs, subject to possible observation. By contrast, China and a small number of other like-minded countries, including Brazil, insist that a coastal state has the right to regulate at least some military traffic in the airspace over its exclusive economic zone (EEZ) -- the maritime area extending 200 miles from its shores over which it has special exploration and resource exploitation rights. This difference of opinion led directly to the EP-3 incident: the pilot that intercepted the American plane took exception to its presence in China's EEZ and in the process of attempting to scare it away clipped its wings. Since proclaiming an ADIZ puts even more pressure on China to intercept foreign military flights, it actually increases the risk of such accidents.

It is evident that China's ADIZ has no prospect of increasing transparency, predictability, or strategic stability. It has prompted confusion among commercial airlines and ostentatious demonstrations of noncompliance by the U.S., Japanese, and South Korean militaries. Since China's ADIZ overlaps with Japan's, there is now a very real possibility that a plane in the area could receive conflicting instructions and face simultaneous Chinese and Japanese interception. From a security and safety perspective, China's announcement clearly makes things worse, not better.

The common wisdom, no less wise for being common, is that China declared an ADIZ in the belief that it would aid in its dispute with Japan over the Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands. Chinese leaders could have believed this for one of two reasons: first, they believed that an ADIZ signals or confers sovereign rights; or, second, they believed that declaring an ADIZ covering the disputed islands would enhance their bargaining position. The former is demonstrably wrong; if this is what they believed, they should immediately fire their international lawyers. The latter belief would only be justified if bargaining was taking place and if Washington and Tokyo could be cowed. This has proved demonstrably wrong, too, and if this is what they had in mind, they should fire their political analysts.

It is evident that China miscalculated. But China is not the only country that is worse off as a result. East Asia has suddenly become a more dangerous place.

It is unrealistic to expect China to walk back its ADIZ unilaterally. That would be a major embarrassment both for the Chinese military and for the regime, both internationally and domestically. But strident noncompliance represents an embarrassing loss of face for Beijing as well. It also reinforces Chinese misconceptions about the legal implications of an ADIZ. So too does South Korea's tit-for-tat expansion of its own air defense identification zone, which will only further increase the dangers of inadvertent confrontation. By taking a hard line, China's adversaries have put Beijing in an even bigger bind.

Sometimes when someone does something embarrassing in public, the smart thing to do is to pretend not to notice. Admittedly, this is now somewhat difficult; Seoul, Tokyo, and Washington have already reacted. But they can drop the subject publicly and start quietly arranging some rules of the road with Beijing, behind the scenes, that let it save face while operationally returning to the status quo ante.

China is on record having established an East China Sea ADIZ; the United States and its allies are on record having rejected it. Let the public conversation end there. At the end of the day -- as far as sovereignty is concerned -- it is all much ado about nothing anyway.


What's an ADIZ? | Foreign Affairs

@Ray
 
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t_co

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@Singh

Nice analysis, but it hinges on the assumption that the US and Japan don't want a surprise attack against China. Unfortunately, any nation's security dilemma is not so much about intent as it is about capability. From an operational standpoint, the capabilities of the US and Japan are oriented towards sudden, decapitating strikes against adversary C4ISR nodes - and this tilt has already been demonstrated three times since 1990 (Iraq 1, Serbia, Iraq 2). Ergo, China has good reason to do everything it can to nullify or degrade this capability.

Hence, the two explanations that Foreign Affairs tries to pigeonhole China's behavior into - to extend sovereignty or to bargain - are a false choice. The most logical explanation is that the ADIZ is a logical Chinese response to the U.S. emphasis on Air-Sea Battle, with its build-up of rapid-response, 'see-deep strike-deep' capabilities against 'near-peer competitors'. A two-hundred nm buffer that forces civilian air traffic to identify itself means 80% of the East China Sea's airborne radar returns can be ignored by the Chinese Air Force, serves as an intrinsic force multiplier for the Chinese Air Force over said region allowing airborne and ground controllers to concentrate airborne assets against fewer unknown targets.

Returning to the original point, China will, certainly, try to enhance trust with the U.S. and Japan, but at the same time, it will not have its national security guaranteed by the goodwill of others.
 
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t_co

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What China should have done was

1) Extend the ADIZ over the Ryukyu Islands, in the direction of Guam, or overlapping the ADIZ over Taiwan. If China had done that, the ADIZ would have seemed less about 'lets get a zone over some rocks we think we own' and more about 'this is the logical distance buffer we need to have sufficient reaction time against incoming bombers and cruise missiles'.

2) Dial the wording to something like 'we will not intercept any flights over another country's territorial airspace, but if you are over that airspace and we feel you could head into Chinese airspace, we will always track you, and, if you do not identify yourself, we reserve the right to intercept you for a VID as soon as you leave that country's territorial airspace.'

3) Stay silent on what China construed as 'territorial airspace', sidestepping the Diaoyu or Ieodo sovereignty issue.
 
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Tolaha

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Ok, you win!

In your dictionary, sending fighters to following foreign military plane is not "defensive measurement". I get it now.

Did that happen in your mind? Or maybe its the super-stealthy Chinese fighters that were sent to follow? But they should have atleast radio'ed the foreign planes because none of them seem to have realised that Chinese fighters were following them.
 

Tolaha

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Dial the wording to something like 'we will not intercept any flights over another country's territorial airspace, but if you are over that airspace and we feel you could head into Chinese airspace, we will always track you, and, if you do not identify yourself, we reserve the right to intercept you for a VID as soon as you leave that country's territorial airspace.'
This post sums up what the CCP/PLA should have said instead of the announcement that actually came out!

They have fallen into a habit of opening their mouth only to end up donating a stick to beat them with! I think it's the case of wanting to be the "big, bad guy of the neighbourhood" but being clueless as to how to act when on world stage.
 
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no smoking

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Did that happen in your mind? Or maybe its the super-stealthy Chinese fighters that were sent to follow? But they should have atleast radio'ed the foreign planes because none of them seem to have realised that Chinese fighters were following them.
Well, that is very strange.

The minister of Taiwan defence department claimed that they saw at least 3 times from their radar that Chinese fighters intercepted Japanese and American military planes since 26/11/13. The distance between these planes was within 1 mile.

Looks like Chinese fighters were not that stealthy, at least someone saw they were coming.

°ê¨¾³¡ªøÄY©ú¡G¤¤°ê3¦¸ÄdºI¬ü¤é­x¾÷!!!
 

Tolaha

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Taiwan is a state belonging to Japan, US or Korea? :noidea:
 

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