A Berlin Wall for India and Pakistan

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by A.V., Jul 26, 2010.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    If you've been following the latest Indo-Pak talks, then you'll realize that there's nothing really ''latest'' about them. Such talks between the two countries have always been a mere formality.

    Why do they take place anyway? Because America pushes to a point? Because the foreign ministries of both countries need something to do? Because the international community has to be shown that we all are actually peace-loving countries? No-one really knows.

    Foreign Minister SM Krishna tells the world that it is finally time for Pakistan to act. Really! Why now? What's so special about now? The Kashmir conflict is more than 60 years old. Kashmir militancy has been raging for two odd decades. It's been more than 10 years since Kargil. And it's been about 20 months since 26/11, on which he was talking specifically.

    Pakistani foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said he wouldn't be going to India for a leisure trip. Why the criticism? Was he off the mark? Remember the Agra Summit of 2001?

    President General Pervez Musharraf visited the Mahatma Gandhi memorial, got nostalgic at his ancestral house in Delhi's Daryaganj, did a photo op in front of the Taj Mahal and cancelled his trip to Ajmer. What diplomatic breakthrough was achieved when the talks actually took place? Zilch! Wasn't that merely a leisure trip?

    Home Secretary GK Pillai talked of ISI's involvement in the Mumbai terror attacks. Why the fuss? Open secrets can be discussed by everyone on the earth except government officials?

    Also, as far as Indian and Pak officials and leaders trading insults go, it hasn't made a difference either way.

    Six major conflicts and a million skirmishes

    India and Pakistan clash on the border. India and Pakistan clash diplomatically. India and Pakistan freeze talks. India and Pakistan resume talks. India and Pakistan talks break down. Excuse me. Are we talking of 1948? Or the 1960s? Or the 1970s? Or the 1990s?

    People think that India and Pakistan have fought just a couple of major wars. The truth is far from that. They have clashed dangerously at least six times. It just depends on how you classify the conflict.

    Let's see. There was the 1948 Kashmir war, the April 1965 Rann of Kutch conflict, the August 1965 Indo-Pak war, the 1971 Indo-Pak war, the 1984 Siachen conflict and the 1999 Kargil war! That's quite a lot! In all these cases, forces took the fighting into enemy territory.

    Seventeen years is the longest that the two haven't eye to eye. That's not counting the times when they have almost come close to war.

    What about the Kashmir militancy, the endless border firing and the umpteen 26/11 type attacks? We have been at each others throats non-stop for close to 63 years.

    Isolation the only solution…

    Let's face it. The leadership of both India and Pakistan has no vision and ideas right now whatsoever. In the past, Jawaharlal Nehru was seen as an international diplomatic genius. He laid the seeds of the Kashmir conflict. Indira Gandhi had the power and actually led a war that split Pakistan into two pieces. It didn't make any difference.

    Pakistan has tried everything in the book (and outside it) including going nuclear. It hasn't made any difference.

    The only solution left is to break all diplomatic and trade ties. No rail and bus links either. Such things have always diverted attention from the real issues instead of bringing about a solution.

    Sadly and co-incidentally, such initiatives are invariably followed by an attack or conflict.

    All the countries of the world face terrorist threats. India needs a comprehensive plan of action against that, Pak or no Pak. Just pointing fingers across the border will not help.

    Kashmir has been mismanaged, Pak or no Pak. That's another thing we have to sort out internally first.

    The US is a potential long-term partner, Pak or no Pak. There's IT, outsourcing, nuclear energy, etc: Don't get bogged down by Kashmir.

    China is behaving suspiciously like it was before the 1962 war. That's a pressing priority, Pak or no Pak.

    The reality of the old Indo-Pak has morphed itself into the new Indo-China as distinct from Af-Pak. That should be reflected in our new foreign policy vision.

    Better to have a wall between India and Pakistan, which the people of both countries will bring down when the time is right. Anyone remember the Berlin Wall that separated West and East Germany? Experts thought it never could be brought down, but eventually the people did it themselves anyway.

    In the meantime, it's better for the foreign ministries to spend much more time over ties with other countries.

    There are almost 200 of them.

    The author is a Bangalore-based journalist and blogger.
    http://sify.com/news/wanted-a-berlin-wall-for-india-and-pakistan-news-army-khxkyTdcabc.html
     
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  3. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    What is this guy talking 'bout ?

    We are talking to Pak because not talking didn't stop Pakistan from continuing "jihad" and India can't take any military or covert action lest it jeopardise the trillion dollar Nato operation in Astan.

    India has made progress on a lot of issues including Kashmir in back-channel talks with Pakistan, and India wants to build up on that.

    Further, PM Singh wants to establish peace in the neighbourhood so that India's security situation improves and economic progress is not hampered.

    And with the Afghanistan endgame playing out, Indians are hoping for some sort of understanding with Pakistan for the region.

    Because the world pressure is now on Pakistan, Taliban is winning, Pakistan has been branded as the jihad factory of the world and India's global influence is on the upswing.

    Because Qureshi is a puppet of the Establishment and Pak establishment is in a time warp/denial and still thinks it is equal(make it better than) to India.

    Back channels talks had achieved a sort of understanding on Kashmir basically Pak had agreed to turn LoC into an IB.

    More to do with MHA vs MEA & Civil servant vs Politician ego tussles.
    Pillai's revelations were nothing new by the way and Pak and India routinely make allegations of the other's involvement in terrorism.

    Krishna didn't insult anyone, Qureshi did, however. It shows the gulf between a self-confident India and in denial Pakistan.

    [/quote]

    And what about Operation Brass tacks ? Pakistan support for Insurgencies in INdia and India's counter response ? Astan sparring ? Parliament attacks ?

    The point why we should talk is so that there shouldn't be a sudden escalation as both are nuclear powers, "nuclear powers".

    Isolation would work if Pakistan is not supporting terrorism against India and India doesn't have a Military to send Pakistan cowering for a strategic depth in Astan.

    And if by talks something is resolved all well; if nothing is achieved there is no problem and atleast India is doing what any sovereign democratic responsible power would do in its place.

    For talks to be successful though India has to appear as economically strong, militarily(covert included) prepared, willing to go to war and internally secure.
    India can't expect Pakistan stop jihad when Maoists are blowing up Central India, Military heads don't want to fight Maoists, Abdullah making an ass of himself, and People dying of hunger while billions of dollars of foodgrains rot.
     
  4. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Wanted : not berlin wall but the great china wall.Give contract to china to construct it.
     
  5. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Best thing to do with Bangladesh also we should have a wall they are changing the demographics of N-E states btw with climate change more and more of them will come.
     
  6. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    when will we guys understand Pakistan will not change its policy we have to handle them in there own language
     
  7. Indianrabbit

    Indianrabbit Regular Member

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    I agree the whole generation there is been fed anti India stuff, most of the time it is highly fabricated and devoid of facts. Now a generation grown with that kind of information will not be rational, there are few who are better but in general they think India is evil. Also they hardly have a habit of introspection, whenever someone internal or external points at their fault they start attacking the messenger. I was greatly disappointed talking to them, minus few they blame everyone for their misery.
     
  8. ammar26

    ammar26 Regular Member

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    Let me correct you brother a little. There is no Jihad from PAKISTAN side. Mainly non-Muslim misunderstood the word and Concept of JIHAD in ISLAM. JIHAD doesn't mean to fight JIHAD actually means to struggle in the way of ALLAH when it comes to describe its meaning of fighting it must be officially declared by MUSLIM SCHOLAR of that STATE or HEAD OF STATE

    And further going on about the Talks between Mr Krishna and Mr Shah deadlocks, that will continue to happen in future also because both countries leaders are not interested fully in solving the problem
     
  9. ammar26

    ammar26 Regular Member

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    Yes you are warmly welcomed to do that.
     
  10. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The Pakistani establishment calls the terror in Kashmir as a freedom struggle and "Jihad". They use the word to their own benefit as it sees fit. The real meaning of Jihad was long lost on the Pak Establishment as also to the rest of the extremists organization. These days the new meaning of "Jihad" as propagated by PA/ISI/AQ/Taliban is Terrorism. Sad as it is, but its kind of become the truth. Bloody Blots on the name of Islam.
     
  11. ammar26

    ammar26 Regular Member

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    Because PAKISTAN believes due to Muslim Majority in KASHMIR it must be under a ISLAMIC STATE, thats why they can't give KASHMIR to INDA
    And Honestly speaking KASHMIR on PAKISTAN side is much more peaceful and developed that the one on your side
    Now kindly don't blame ISI for that ...
     
  12. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    I am not blaming ISI for peacefulness of your part of Kashmir . I am blaming Our RAW for this . They are very inactive and should have created a lot of trouble there . In same manner your ISI is managing in our part of Kashmir.
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    So Kashmir should be part of Pakistan eh?


    By the way whats the percentage of Kashmiris in PoK?
     
  14. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Mirpuris all fled to UKstan after mangla dam was constructed.NA is beng taken over by pukhtoons.
     
  15. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    yusuf i think we need one dedicated Life in POK thread like pakistan misleading its public on indus water dispute.Most of the time i heard pakistani sprouting this nonsense on POK--"oh its tooo peaceful".there are 3 four thread on POK can u combine all those.
     
  16. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Enjoy 2 weekends worth of material for you to look into if u care to instead of sprouting lies as it was done with bengalis before shit hit the fan.

    How Azad is `Azad Kashmir
    Gilgit Baltistan
    Kashmiri demonstrators urge Pakistan to leave Kashmir
    Jehadis meet in PoK
    Is pakistan fooling Kashmiris
    POK women on streets opposing pakistani army's atrocities.
    Life in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir
    Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) - A Story of Unending Plight Continues!
    Pakistan has lost Kashmir plank: Pak media
    Suicide blast kills two soldiers in Muzaffarabad (PoK)
    PoK leaders seek India's help in fight against Pak
    POK and India
    Refuting the position of Alastair Lamb on Pakistan's 'leigitimacy' over Kashmir
    The 1947-48 Kashmir War
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010

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