54 Jets Set to Be Scrapped, Air Force Looks to Cannibalize on its Squadrons

[Zebra]

Well you dont know the details i guss..Though I20 is manufactured in India Hundai uses steel imported from Korea.. and cerian components stll come from South Korea.. In Comparrision Tata's are more indegenios with steel coming from Indian plants..

Let them start POSCO plant then. They will make steel in India too.

 

[archie]

Let them start POSCO plant then. They will make steel in India too.

Thats upto them... the point is to encorage made in India

 

[Blackwater]

Order Kithooo????????????????????


come on ground mate

There was a plan to set up second private production line with confirmed order of 125 planes..

Like it or not accelarating the project is the only way forward..[/QUOTE]


Mere veer kuch nahi hona,

 

[Compersion]

su-30 can not do all types of duties. its like u have toyota land cruiser and u need Hyundai 120 for city use

I am wishing that the induction of the SU30MKI in much more larger numbers is not slowed down but in fact increased because of the (slow) decision on the smaller city cars like you say and also because of reasons like mention in the thread. We used to live in a house where we can only afford small items. Now we can afford and also have the Land Cruisers and they are made here in India and we also are able to do it in big numbers no need to be shy about it and also no need to be ashamed about driving it in the city and having more of them in the garage. We planned for 270. Why not make it 350+. Why not make bigger numbers. Why we talk about having not enough. Why cannot we talk about having too much. We can conserve and use less instead of not having it at all. Sure like you say we need small cars. But we have good choices now in small segment and can get good terms. But Land Cruiser good also in the city.

 

[Blackwater]

I am wishing that the induction of the SU30MKI in much more larger numbers is not slowed down but in fact increased because of the (slow) decision on the smaller city cars like you say and also because of reasons like mention in the thread. We used to live in a house where we can only afford small items. Now we can afford and also have the Land Cruisers and they are made here in India and we also are able to do it in big numbers no need to be shy about it and also no need to be ashamed about driving it in the city and having more of them in the garage. We planned for 270. Why not make it 350+. Why not make bigger numbers. Why we talk about having not enough. Why cannot we talk about having too much. We can conserve and use less instead of not having it at all. Sure like you say we need small cars. But we have good choices now in small segment and can get good terms. But Land Cruiser good also in the city.

well it might be IAF want only 270 su-30, rest for strategic need we need medium to light fighters, if we cant make it wise decision is to buy them from phoren land and rest TOT. we can not wait specially pakis and chini are ahead of us in this area.

land cruiser might be good for cities but u need auto or maruti 800 to move around chandi chonk or Amritsar di galia

 

[bengalraider]

The LCA is ready ,if you wants a point defence aircraft that is! The problem is that the IAF wants it to be comparable to the latest frontline fighters out there, that is something the aircraft was simply not designed for. The Israelis faced similar problems with their first Kfirs and the went ahead regardless, we need to stop looking for the gold standard in all cases and simply start absorbing what we have ready to be delivered today.
@Immanuel - I'd prefer we use the old Migs as deep strike cruise missiles, much like the Chinese .

 

[Blackwater]

The LCA is ready ,if you wants a point defence aircraft that is! The problem is that the IAF wants it to be comparable to the latest frontline fighters out there, that is something the aircraft was simply not designed for. The Israelis faced similar problems with their first Kfirs and the went ahead regardless, we need to stop looking for the gold standard in all cases and simply start absorbing what we have ready to be delivered today.
@Immanuel - I'd prefer we use the old Migs as deep strike cruise missiles, much like the Chinese .

the LCA is ready ???kitho

that is my case HAL is so slow in updating the aircraft to present or future level. that when prototype is ready in 2015 tech move ahead to 2020.

as far as kafir is concerned Israel also bought F-15 and F-16 to update their air force at par with arabs

 

[Zebra]

Let me post it in this thread, suits here better......................

My two cents....

Better try to get few squadrons of used F-16s from US, as they still have lots of surplus F-16s.

Price won't be much.

And let LM bring it to zero hour and upgrade it up to the F-16V configurations.

It will be the most cost effective way to improve falling squadrons of IAF in most shorter time.

It is not impossible, as US - India co-operation is getting better and better day by day.

 

[Hari Sud]

Let the IAF retire these planes which are too old. Get it over with. It is completely amateur to constantly threaten to retire the planes to exert pressure on civilian authority.

When they retire the planes, retire a few Marshall's also.

New fighters will not come until the deal is right. For Rafale, the blame is more on the French. The Prime Minister offered to buy 36 Rafale readymade and bypass the five year old negotiations for 126 planes, but the French want $150 million a plane. The French have already cultivated Marshall's in the IAF, who insist on purchase irrespective of a bad deal offered. As long as French are stuck on their price negotiations, the deal may or may not happen. In the process the IAF is threatening to retire the whole inventory of IAF.

May be as a reverse pressure tactic on the French, accelerate the LCA-1 program. Once FOC is achieved for LCA, set up a new production line independent of HAL to make 20 planes a year. That will replace all the retiring MIG-21s. Accelerate the LCA-2 program with Swedish help and build it as a formidable fighter bomber. That will take the wind out of French sails.

Hence once the unhappy Mrashalls are gone, planes retired, a new production line for LCA is set up that will force the French to negotiate in the future in good faith. Much bigger benefit, the planes are Indian and the unhappy type Marshall's are gone.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

This seems another pressure tactic. I don't think 2 squadrons of Rafale are going to solve much problem.

 

[Zebra]

This seems another pressure tactic. I don't think 2 squadrons of Rafale are going to solve much problem.

Sir, compare Rafale's weapon carrying capacity with those entire lot of old Migs.

Then compare Rafale's different types of mission carrying capacity.

Having only two squadrons of Rafales in IAF makes lot of difference.

 

[Zebra]

^^
But better go for single engine aircraft when we talk about replacement of old Migs.

 

[su35]

Let them start POSCO plant then. They will make steel in India too.

POSCO plant is doomed already in Odisha

 

[Khagesh]

We planned for 270. Why not make it 350+.

This is a very pertinent query considering our scenario and does make some good sense. And for many reasons, which I think I will leave for now.

But there is one major downside to this. Su30MKI in effect is the new Mig 21, in the sense that we rely on Su30MKI fleet, today, just as much as we did on the Mig 21 earlier. And I sense a distinct possibility that retirement of Su30MKI wil create some of the same problems and give rise to some of the same scenarios that we see with the Mig21. Mig21 was so good at what it did that IAF. has driven itself into a groove/rut. They simply cannot think of doing those jobs any other way. Result these General Ranis will sell sabzbaag of some completely irrelevant planes. Planes that are good only for an expeditionary force out to establish dominance over a small regional nobody.

The retirement of Su30MKI will create just such a gap again and you dont know of an Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft to come in next 20 years will begin to face much the same induction difficulties that LCA faces today and AMCA will face tomorrow. No point having our AHCA face that situation merely on account of a old foggies forgetting the art and the new slick bastards selling horse manure.

No point wishing something on our own people that is going to create further trouble in future. At some point the cumulative troubles for indigenous aviation, must begin to go south. Now is a good enough time to start attaining that. No more Su30MKI. Rather we should start thinking in terms of upgrades to the Su30MKI.

 

[Compersion]

well it might be IAF want only 270 su-30, rest for strategic need we need medium to light fighters, if we cant make it wise decision is to buy them from phoren land and rest TOT. we can not wait specially pakis and chini are ahead of us in this area.

land cruiser might be good for cities but u need auto or maruti 800 to move around chandi chonk or Amritsar di galia

totally agree. sorry for the long reply and use of analogies.

now we have online-shopping. why we need to travel in the heat of a auto and maruti 800 to chandni chowk when we can do that from the comfortable chair with AC and nimboo pani (a cruise missile) will do that job (something akin to online - direct cash on delivery).

i dont mind having many land cruisers (SU30MKI) and doing my shopping online these days (many cruise missiles both land and air launched). We are also having talk about weaponised UAVs. It would be like having attack aircraft. wont that be the future.

Tejas role would be really useful no doubt. And we really need to have them in place because they replace the Mig-21s and they are not expensive and also we need to diversify. but we simply are not able to do that now but we can do that with SU30MKIs. I really want to have Tejas in largest of numbers but i want to see a Airforce that is not minimalistic in nature and we think about having "just enough". We need to start thinking in bigger numbers and having much more because our role in the region and globe requires us (simple and factually).

I think Tejas would be a fantastic addition to the Armed forces. But i also have to appreicate that we have the infrastructure and comfort and system already in place with SU30MKI. Tejas MK2 will take time and by that time we can induct a lot more SU30MKIs. I dont know why we are stopping at 270. I even can think why we dont have 500 SU30MKI with our strategy in place for a two-front war.

That is SU30MKI plus Cruise Missiles. I consider Cruise Missile to be a armed aircraft a type of armed UAV. And we need to start thinking of them to work in conjunction with our aircraft systems. We are having a case where many aircrafts are being decommissioned. Why dont we think instead of having simple replacement in numbers we build and add in larger numbers. It would be a good guise.

That is where Rafael and even AMRCA comes in but we have that with MIG29s, Jaguars, even Mirage. If can get Rafael with TOT that would be good. That way we will have metro to go to chandni chowk (Rafael). Because sometimes we need to go feel and see the destination.

Tejas is more like a Nano. It is a fantastic car and even comes in Automatic (i was amazed). Why Nano in Automatic is not sold overseas is one of the wonders of the world (it would outsell many cars). And if i have many Land Cruisers at home like you said i will not take it to the local market which is not far away from my house. I would make sure i have and take a Tajas. But while i wait for my Tejas and even Metro line to be build and come and be delivered to my home I will take my Land Cruiser(s) and there is no shame about it. I can afford it and the service delivery and supplier is good and we have good terms and relationships.

I will buy another Land Cruiser since if my other Land Cruiser are being used for other tasks. I will buy many Land Cruisers to do all my jobs.

The Garage is big enough to have much more to 270 SU30MKIs - 350+. and will have enough space even after that for 200+ Tejas.

 

[Compersion]

This is a very pertinent query considering our scenario and does make some good sense. And for many reasons, which I think I will leave for now.

But there is one major downside to this. Su30MKI in effect is the new Mig 21, in the sense that we rely on Su30MKI fleet, today, just as much as we did on the Mig 21 earlier. And I sense a distinct possibility that retirement of Su30MKI wil create some of the same problems and give rise to some of the same scenarios that we see with the Mig21. Mig21 was so good at what it did that IAF. has driven itself into a groove/rut. They simply cannot think of doing those jobs any other way. Result these General Ranis will sell sabzbaag of some completely irrelevant planes. Planes that are good only for an expeditionary force out to establish dominance over a small regional nobody.

The retirement of Su30MKI will create just such a gap again and you dont know of an Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft to come in next 20 years will begin to face much the same induction difficulties that LCA faces today and AMCA will face tomorrow. No point having our AHCA face that situation merely on account of a old foggies forgetting the art and the new slick bastards selling horse manure.

No point wishing something on our own people that is going to create further trouble in future. At some point the cumulative troubles for indigenous aviation, must begin to go south. Now is a good enough time to start attaining that. No more Su30MKI. Rather we should start thinking in terms of upgrades to the Su30MKI.

Thanks for posting also agree with your points. Would like to add to the discussion by saying that I would believe that one would think if we induct more SU30MKI they would be more advanced and continue to develop along the production processes. It would be like the block versions. The SU30MKI inducted today and tomorrow would be more advanced and mature to yesterday.

I would also like to think that it would be revolutionary where India develops a more advanced SU30MKI on its own. We have already seen how Russia appreciates what we did with SU30MKI and inducted the SU30SM.

I am sure if the industry is told we will have more 350+ SU 30MKI i would like it to be 500+ it would fit into many parameters that would do well both economically, development, foreign policy. When we have larger numbers it also helps in upgrading older versions since the availability and size of the weapons system in use is maintained at a higher level. I would like us to start thinking bigger and having more bigger plans and it is available for us to do in front of us to do and we can do it. Also about the future and worrying about its replacement. We need not be ashamed about the future we can afford its replacement and also the development process for future works well if we master the ability and capability of inducting a product and fighter aircraft of a certain version is a large number. In fact one can say 500 is not enough. I am not saying 1000. We are not like some of our neighbors who build too much of something which they wont be able to use it and dissatisfy with it later.

 

[Blackwater]

totally agree. sorry for the long reply and use of analogies.

now we have online-shopping. why we need to travel in the heat of a auto and maruti 800 to chandni chowk when we can do that from the comfortable chair with AC and nimboo pani (a cruise missile) will do that job (something akin to online - direct cash on delivery).

i dont mind having many land cruisers (SU30MKI) and doing my shopping online these days (many cruise missiles both land and air launched). We are also having talk about weaponised UAVs. It would be like having attack aircraft. wont that be the future.

Tejas role would be really useful no doubt. And we really need to have them in place because they replace the Mig-21s and they are not expensive and also we need to diversify. but we simply are not able to do that now but we can do that with SU30MKIs. I really want to have Tejas in largest of numbers but i want to see a Airforce that is not minimalistic in nature and we think about having "just enough". We need to start thinking in bigger numbers and having much more because our role in the region and globe requires us (simple and factually).

I think Tejas would be a fantastic addition to the Armed forces. But i also have to appreicate that we have the infrastructure and comfort and system already in place with SU30MKI. Tejas MK2 will take time and by that time we can induct a lot more SU30MKIs. I dont know why we are stopping at 270. I even can think why we dont have 500 SU30MKI with our strategy in place for a two-front war.

That is SU30MKI plus Cruise Missiles. I consider Cruise Missile to be a armed aircraft a type of armed UAV. And we need to start thinking of them to work in conjunction with our aircraft systems. We are having a case where many aircrafts are being decommissioned. Why dont we think instead of having simple replacement in numbers we build and add in larger numbers. It would be a good guise.

That is where Rafael and even AMRCA comes in but we have that with MIG29s, Jaguars, even Mirage. If can get Rafael with TOT that would be good. That way we will have metro to go to chandni chowk (Rafael). Because sometimes we need to go feel and see the destination.

Tejas is more like a Nano. It is a fantastic car and even comes in Automatic (i was amazed). Why Nano in Automatic is not sold overseas is one of the wonders of the world (it would outsell many cars). And if i have many Land Cruisers at home like you said i will not take it to the local market which is not far away from my house. I would make sure i have and take a Tajas. But while i wait for my Tejas and even Metro line to be build and come and be delivered to my home I will take my Land Cruiser(s) and there is no shame about it. I can afford it and the service delivery and supplier is good and we have good terms and relationships.

I will buy another Land Cruiser since if my other Land Cruiser are being used for other tasks. I will buy many Land Cruisers to do all my jobs.

The Garage is big enough to have much more to 270 SU30MKIs - 350+. and will have enough space even after that for 200+ Tejas.

:bs::bs:

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Sir, compare Rafale's weapon carrying capacity with those entire lot of old Migs.

Then compare Rafale's different types of mission carrying capacity.

Having only two squadrons of Rafales in IAF makes lot of difference.

But it screws up the entire logistics of IAF for coming 2 decades besides being a big monetary drag in the present situation.

Fast-tracking Tejas production should save a lot of money and help in IAF modernisation in near future with FGFA.

 

[Zebra]

But it screws up the entire logistics of IAF for coming 2 decades besides being a big monetary drag in the present situation.

Fast-tracking Tejas production should save a lot of money and help in IAF modernisation in near future with FGFA.

No other options for IAF and to maintain their specific operational requirements they have to deal with it anyway.

Fast-tracking Tejas production won't solve the numbers game in IAF today, as it is already too late.

And it will be great surprise for me if India go for any new or even more aircrafts from existing Russian platform.