25 billion dollar PAK-FA deal crash lands

[Zebra]

american lobbyst in India are trying very hard for this.

Sir, American lobbyist said this too ---> 'modi aa raha hai, rok sako toh rok lo.'

Do you remember it........!

 

[Zebra]

Russia has more Parties then US ,it is a multi party system .

That is due to a 2011 European Court decision.

http://www.europeanforum.net/news/1132/echr_rebukes_russia_s_political_party_law

 

[sasum]

The Russia can be called a capitalist system, though with strong elements of socialism which are present in several European states also.

Capitalism is basically ability to start a private enterprise using private capital, existence of stock markets, etc.

There is no institutional roadblock to our cooperation with Russia. I think fgfa has very high chance of materializing even if it happens with some delays.

That is correct, but Russia & China have always been bitter rivals to US camp. So India will have to summon all her diplomatic resources to straddle both horses.

 

[Zebra]

My hunch is that we shall get a lot of clarity about fighter procurement by June 16.
India has made its demands to USA. We shall see one or two rounds of back and forth before a clear situation emerges.
If American offer is not good enough, then there is nothing to postpone fgfa. It will happen.

Sir, what is special in "by June 16".....!

 

[Zebra]

With the Rafale deal falling in line, the rest of the projects will be pursued with increased earnest in coming years. This idea was also expressed by Saurav Jha.

We are negotiating for purchase of a first trache of 60 FGFAs. The purchase deal for these jets will be seperate from the 4 billion spent on R&D and production infrastructure. At a unit price of $225 million, expect the first tranche to cost over $13 billions.

BUT...the production line of FGFA will be India - which means most of this money (atleast 60%) will go to Indian industry and companies. Remaining will go to Russia.

But post-2020, our economy would have become even stronger. It can all be afforded.

Sir, first someone said 200 Rafales are coming.

Now the same drama started for FGFA also. Isn't it.....?

Anyway, please check it first , this govt is happy to spend $225 million for an aircraft.

Its a lot of money for just one jet fighter aircraft.

And not sure what else are included in that price.

Typical congreesi govt style price tag.

 

[Bahamut]

That is due to a 2011 European Court decision.

http://www.europeanforum.net/news/1132/echr_rebukes_russia_s_political_party_law

ECHR decision are not implement in Russia ,only if the Russian Supreme Court say then it will be implemented .

 

[Gessler]

Sir, first someone said 200 Rafales are coming.

Now the same drama started for FGFA also. Isn't it.....?

It's not a drama, sir ji. It's how numbers are built up - you don't just order all the planes at once, you do so in tranches & batches. You would know this if you look up how we procured MKI numbers. At first, we set out to produce 140 Flankers for IAF. Then, with successive follow-up orders the number got almost doubled and became 272 Flankers. Now, it is set to further go to 300+ and would eventually reach approx. 350 MKIs.

Rafale, FGFA, Tejas and even AMCA numbers will be procured in a similar fashion.

Anyway, please check it first , this govt is happy to spend $225 million for an aircraft.

Australia is spending around $195 million for a 4.5 gen fighter like F/A-18. In comparison, even 225mn is pretty reasonable price for the world's most capable 5th gen air-superiority fighter.

Let's not ask for a Mercedes at the price of a Maruti.

And not sure what else are included in that price.

As far as I know, that is just the per-unit flyaway cost. The setting up of production lines etc. will be covered in the $4 billion R&D fund. Weapons & everything is separate also AFAIK.

Typical congreesi govt style price tag.

Sir, now you're not even making any sense. A more capable plane obviously costs more money - what do Congress or BJP have to do with it?

Plus you're forgetting the fact that the FGFA production line will be in India - a lot of the money we're spending on the actual fighter's procurement will go to Indian companies & Indian workforce only.

 

[Zebra]

It's not a drama, sir ji. It's how numbers are built up - you don't just order all the planes at once, you do so in tranches & batches. You would know this if you look up how we procured MKI numbers. At first, we set out to produce 140 Flankers for IAF. Then, with successive follow-up orders the number got almost doubled and became 272 Flankers. Now, it is set to further go to 300+ and would eventually reach approx. 350 MKIs.
Rafale, FGFA, Tejas and even AMCA numbers will be procured in a similar fashion.

That is what I said.

First 200 Rafale, next FGFAs and now even 350 MKIs.

RM and IAF chief knows all these, that they are getting more aircrafts now, I wonder....!

Australia is spending around $195 million for a 4.5 gen fighter like F/A-18.

Do you have even any idea about what they bought actually and how much they paid for it in total...?

If I am not wrong, I already posted it half a dozen time on DFI. You better check it first.

In comparison, even 225mn is pretty reasonable price for the world's most capable 5th gen air-superiority fighter.
Let's not ask for a Mercedes at the price of a Maruti.
As far as I know, that is just the per-unit flyaway cost. The setting up of production lines etc. will be covered in the $4 billion R&D fund. Weapons & everything is separate also AFAIK.

Sir, Don't get excited too much with it.

Its an sir-superiority crap.
And take "5th gen" word out of your post and the similar words I read when first time MiG-29 touched Indian soil.
In short, every Russian platform is super duper, until India gets it.

And I am not optimistic about FGFA.
Very unfortunate, GoI waste public money in it.
If they have to buy it, then better get limited number of PAK-FA and see you later.

Sir, now you're not even making any sense. A more capable plane obviously costs more money - what do Congress or BJP have to do with it?

Whenever post a price of an aircraft, don't forget to provide what are included in that price.
Please keep in mind for next time.

Plus you're forgetting the fact that the FGFA production line will be in India - a lot of the money we're spending on the actual fighter's procurement will go to Indian companies & Indian workforce only.

Russians are not even ready to make JV with Indian Private sector companies for helicopters.
Do you really think they will go with this aircraft project with Indian private sector companies.

 

[Gessler]

That is what I said.

First 200 Rafale, next FGFAs and now even 350 MKIs.

RM and IAF chief knows all these, that they are getting more aircrafts now, I wonder....!

I fail to understand what exactly you want to say?

Its an sir-superiority crap.
And take "5th gen" word out of your post and the similar words I read when first time MiG-29 touched Indian soil.
In short, every Russian platform is super duper, until India gets it.

And I am not optimistic about FGFA.
Very unfortunate, GoI waste public money in it.
If they have to buy it, then better get limited number of PAK-FA and see you later.

I agree - we shouldn't even buy few PAK-FA it would still be a waste of public money.

Instead, we should spend vast amounts on getting a lackluster, performance-deficient plane called F-35, who's software does not even allow to take-off when asked to.

http://fortune.com/2016/04/28/f-35-fails-testing-air-force/

Or better yet, we should invest our money & hopes in a paper plane called AMCA...while in parallel, still waiting to take delivery of operational Mk-1 Tejas (let alone Mk-1A or Mk-2).

Russians are not even ready to make JV with Indian Private sector companies for helicopters.
Do you really think they will go with this aircraft project with Indian private sector companies.

I never said private companies. Regardless, which company is contracted to make the said equipment in India depends on what we negotiate for. If we can get Rafale contracted with private cos, why not FGFA? It depends on GoI's decision.

Back when Su-30MKI production was contracted, no private company was interested in getting into defence manufacturing business so we naturally had no choice except go with HAL. Today, the situation is entirely different.

As far as helicopters are concerned, the indigenous HAL LUH is shaping up nicely and it's easy to see why we're not looking very interested about the Ka-226T at the moment. Oh and by the way, Reliance/Pipavav have already talked with Russian agencies to build 3-4 Talwar (Krivak)-class FFGs in India, if at all IN decides to go for more of them.

 

[Zebra]

I fail to understand what exactly you want to say?

Its very simple.
Let me repete it, as people post it on DFI, does Indian RM and Air Chief knows that India is getting 200 Rafale, FGFA and 350 MKI......!

I agree - we shouldn't even buy few PAK-FA it would still be a waste of public money.
Instead, we should spend vast amounts on getting a lackluster, performance-deficient plane called F-35, who's software does not even allow to take-off when asked to.
http://fortune.com/2016/04/28/f-35-fails-testing-air-force/

Wait till other 5th gen aircrafts get ready and get in combat operations.
Till then, welcome to wonderland.
Get ready for more and more of these negative reports on F-35.
And if you love to read in too much, then I can't help you much.

Or better yet, we should invest our money & hopes in a paper plane called AMCA...while in parallel, still waiting to take delivery of operational Mk-1 Tejas (let alone Mk-1A or Mk-2).

I never said private companies. Regardless, which company is contracted to make the said equipment in India depends on what we negotiate for. If we can get Rafale contracted with private cos, why not FGFA? It depends on GoI's decision.

Sir, There you go.
Better get proper info before you post, I am afraid.
It is not GOI's decision.
GOI love it if they go with private sector, Russians are not happy.

BTW, are you represent old way of creepy traditional Indian defence thinking.....!
Buy from France and Russia only (and stay away from US).
Then call it as we are good, just bcz we kept our eggs in two baskets and not one.
# just asked it.

Back when Su-30MKI production was contracted, no private company was interested in getting into defence manufacturing business so we naturally had no choice except go with HAL. Today, the situation is entirely different.
As far as helicopters are concerned, the indigenous HAL LUH is shaping up nicely and it's easy to see why we're not looking very interested about the Ka-226T at the moment. Oh and by the way, Reliance/Pipavav have already talked with Russian agencies to build 3-4 Talwar (Krivak)-class FFGs in India, if at all IN decides to go for more of them.

Russians are not happy to join with Indian private sector for manufacturing.
They talk and talk only. No actions what so ever.

 

[Gessler]

Its very simple.
Let me repete it, as people post it on DFI, does Indian RM and Air Chief knows that India is getting 200 Rafale, FGFA and 350 MKI......!

I guess you can ask him if you really want to know if he knows or not.

There is a Right to Information Act.

Wait till other 5th gen aircrafts get ready and get in combat operations.
Till then, welcome to wonderland.
Get ready for more and more of these negative reports on F-35.
And if you love to read in too much, then I can't help you much.

There is no 5th generation air-superiority fighter alternative other than FGFA for India. The "air-superiority" part is important because you must remember that by the 2030s, we will start replacing our older Su-30MKIs with the FGFA.

The F-35 cannot replace MKI for the same reason why it cannot replace F-15; because it's not designed as an air-dominance fighter and always needs the support of dedicated A2A fighters in order to survive in contested airspace.

...and it's not me who is saying this, it's the Chief of the USAF Air Combat Command, General Mike Hostage.

" If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22 "

https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/04/f-35-needs-f-22-acc-says/

If you want to live in the delusion of IAF making do without the FGFA, I can only pray that you get well soon.

Sir, There you go.
Better get proper info before you post, I am afraid.
It is not GOI's decision.
GOI love it if they go with private sector, Russians are not happy.

BTW, are you represent old way of creepy traditional Indian defence thinking.....!
Buy from France and Russia only (and stay away from US).
Then call it as we are good, just bcz we kept our eggs in two baskets and not one.
# just asked it.



Russians are not happy to join with Indian private sector for manufacturing.
They talk and talk only. No actions what so ever.

I suppose the Russians have called you and said they were not happy? You are talking as if you were in the negotiations team, or working for MoD.

As a person who reads the newspapers and follows trusted defence experts - I can confidently say that even in case of Rafale, it is the GoI (which includes MoD and IAF) that decides whether the construction or local production of a weapon system/platform needs to be conducted by a state-run or private agency. At most, the foreign vendor can choose WHICH governmental or private company they want to tie-up with.

Same will be the case in FGFA production. With the Rafale deal, GoI is looking to kick-start a private-sector military aviation industry. If the formula works, FGFA might as well follow the same path.

And what do you mean "Russians are not happy" ?? Have you any idea how kiddish you sound? What do Russians care if private or govt-run company buys the licenses? They get their dues anyway. And why would any one in their right mind decline to participate in a private-sector venture?

Here's the deal - they agree for production, they get billions. They don't, and they get nothing.

Which option do you think a Russian company would choose?

Look bro, its' not my job to convince you to accept the facts as they are. If you want to believe in a certain delusion, that's your choice and I'm going to stop you from doing so any more.

 

[Zebra]

I guess you can ask him if you really want to know if he knows or not.
There is a Right to Information Act.

Sir, so 200 Rafals are coming, 350 MKi are coming and FGFA too, whatever you guys are posting here are all useless stories, as it doesn't have any base at all.
Its been proven now. Is that true....?

There is no 5th generation air-superiority fighter alternative other than FGFA for India. The "air-superiority" part is important because you must remember that by the 2030s, we will start replacing our older Su-30MKIs with the FGFA.
The F-35 cannot replace MKI for the same reason why it cannot replace F-15; because it's not designed as an air-dominance fighter and always needs the support of dedicated A2A fighters in order to survive in contested airspace.
...and it's not me who is saying this, it's the Chief of the USAF Air Combat Command, General Mike Hostage.
" If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22 "
https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/04/f-35-needs-f-22-acc-says/
If you want to live in the delusion of IAF making do without the FGFA, I can only pray that you get well soon.

Sir, they need a cover for F-35, as you said in your post.
Lets compare it with Indian scenario, where are that aircraft which will perform F-35's role in today's IAF scenario....?
IAF needs that aircraft right now.
You cry a lot about replacing MKI for future, but you kept one important place empty today.
Which IAF needs right now as their dedicated strike aircraft , they don't have any new aircraft to replace old.
Once they get that first, we can think for future replacements.

I suppose the Russians have called you and said they were not happy? You are talking as if you were in the negotiations team, or working for MoD.

As a person who reads the newspapers and follows trusted defence experts - I can confidently say that even in case of Rafale, it is the GoI (which includes MoD and IAF) that decides whether the construction or local production of a weapon system/platform needs to be conducted by a state-run or private agency. At most, the foreign vendor can choose WHICH governmental or private company they want to tie-up with.
Same will be the case in FGFA production. With the Rafale deal, GoI is looking to kick-start a private-sector military aviation industry. If the formula works, FGFA might as well follow the same path.
And what do you mean "Russians are not happy" ?? Have you any idea how kiddish you sound? What do Russians care if private or govt-run company buys the licenses? They get their dues anyway. And why would any one in their right mind decline to participate in a private-sector venture?

Check it again.
It was UPA who remain pain on a$$ with its useless love towards public sectors, but this govt preferred private sector.
It was Russians who are not happy in making JVs with private sector.
Mark my words, they will stay away with it.

Here's the deal - they agree for production, they get billions. They don't, and they get nothing.
Which option do you think a Russian company would choose?

Sir, check it first, are we getting FGFA....!
You are one of them who always jump with wooden swards. Remember those 200 Rafales and 350 MKIs.

Look bro, its' not my job to convince you to accept the facts as they are. If you want to believe in a certain delusion, that's your choice and I'm going to stop you from doing so any more.

First clear this........... I asked it earlier, there are reason in it and I am asking it again ...................

Are you represent old way of creepy traditional Indian defence thinking.....!
Buy from France and Russia only (and stay away from US).
Then call it as we are good, just bcz we kept our eggs in two baskets and not one.

 

[Gessler]

Sir, so 200 Rafals are coming, 350 MKi are coming and FGFA too, whatever you guys are posting here are all useless stories, as it doesn't have any base at all.
Its been proven now. Is that true....?

If you really do live in Australia, I wonder how you manage to get by as your English seems frankly incomprehensible.

What stories have I been posting??

200 Rafales is a story? Well, why don't you go and check how many Medium MRCAs the IAF requested for? Answer is 126, and that's what we're getting as of current plans (36 off the shelf and 90 Make In India). As of going to 200 (189 actually), it is based on the fact that even during MMRCA negotiations, IAF has projected a future requirement of 126+63 fighters of the type = 189. The requirements have not changed since then, so the ultimately required number stays at 189.

It is no secret that 272 MKIs have already been ordered and an additional 40 are being contemplated at the moment (about 312-314 total). Please read the news. And the 350 figure comes from Prasun K. Sengupta who projected that number as the ultimately required fleet of MKIs - he also quoted that the first batch of Super-MKI upgraded versions (about 40 units) will arrive directly from Russia. Upto you if you want to believe him or not.

The total projected requirement of FGFA stands at 244 units. But IAF is trying to order them in as small batches as possible to keep spending in control & more flexible - the first tranche is of 60 aircraft. The FGFA (or advanced versions of it) will eventually replace the MKI in IAF service - that's the way it has to be. At that point numbers will further increase. All one needs is a little intuition and a lot of common sense to see that.

You are forgetting a basic fact; IAF has two jobs at the moment.

1) Replace older aircraft in service with newer inductions.
2) Expand the number of fighter squadrons, not reduce them.

IAF needs that aircraft right now.
You cry a lot about replacing MKI for future, but you kept one important place empty today.
Which IAF needs right now as their dedicated strike aircraft , they don't have any new aircraft to replace old.
Once they get that first, we can think for future replacements.

That is why we are getting Rafale to replace the Jaguar & MiG-27, genius. Or have you been living under a rock till now?

And secondly, no, IAF has never asked for a "dedicated strike aircraft", it asked for a "multi-role fighter". Stop pulling imaginary requirements out of the backside. Rafale is brilliant in the tactical as well as nuclear strike role and at the moment, it is the plane which will eventually replace the existing dedicated strike aircraft like MiG-27s, followed by Jaguars. BUT the advantage here is that it's operational capability is not limited to the A2G role as the aircraft it will replace.

Sir, check it first, are we getting FGFA....!

At the moment, a plane called FGFA does not exist so we can't be getting it now.

But if the question is "are we working to get the FGFA?", the answer is yes. And as part of recent negotiations, we have managed to reduce the required R&D funding to $4 billion compared to previously estimated $6 billion. I must say that is some brilliant progress in the right direction. We also seem to have reached a conclusion that a per-unit cost would be around $225 million apiece.

Once the funds are released, actual work on the first 3 prototypes will begin. These prototypes are the PMI series.

So yeah, progress on the deal is ongoing. Rome was not built in a day, neither will be the FGFA.

You are one of them who always jump with wooden swards. Remember those 200 Rafales and 350 MKIs.

People with wooden swords are the people who actually believe that IAF is going to stop Rafale procurement at just 36 aircraft. These are the people who have no idea about the operational requirements.

Are you represent old way of creepy traditional Indian defence thinking.....!
Buy from France and Russia only (and stay away from US).
Then call it as we are good, just bcz we kept our eggs in two baskets and not one.

...and what are you a representative of? The new way of creepy defence thinking where we put all the eggs in the so-called "Indian" basket which is actually made of US fibers that would be embargoed at the drop of a hat?

Please explain yourself!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

PAKFA is a great plane and future of Indian airforce is totally dependent on acquisition or non acquisition of this plane. I think telling russian that We may not buy PAKFA may be a negation trick and nothing else.

 

[garg_bharat]

That is correct, but Russia & China have always been bitter rivals to US camp. So India will have to summon all her diplomatic resources to straddle both horses.

I completely disagree with you.

Both Russia and China want to live with USA. Though I suspect China has ambitions to become dominant in world affairs.

It is USA (or New World Order - NWO is a term used for USA supremacy in the world) that is trying to bring Russia down. Fall of USSR was the first success for USA. Now Russia is the target.

India has to live in the house called Asia where China and Russia live in other rooms of the same house. It is clear that enmity of next door neighbours is much more costly than enmity of a person living far away. So India must evolve relations with both Russia and China.

India has long term military relations with Russia. There is enormous merit in sustaining this relationship.

I think a mindless switching of camp will not help India.

We do have a short term challenge from communist China which we must carefully navigate. As I said the primary purpose should be to avoid conflict with China though this effort may not succeed. Unfortunately we cannot take Russia's help in tackling our China problem. So we may have to take USA's help.

 

[Zebra]

If you really do live in Australia, I wonder how you manage to get by as your English seems frankly incomprehensible.

Sir, smell some coffee, it will help.
Trust me.

What stories have I been posting??
200 Rafales is a story?

Its a story, pure story. Any doubt...?
Did they ordered any of it yet....!

Well, why don't you go and check how many Medium MRCAs the IAF requested for? Answer is 126, and that's what we're getting as of current plans (36 off the shelf and 90 Make In India). As of going to 200 (189 actually), it is based on the fact that even during MMRCA negotiations, IAF has projected a future requirement of 126+63 fighters of the type = 189. The requirements have not changed since then, so the ultimately required number stays at 189.

Sir, MMRCA is dead.
You like it or no but that is reality, its no more, its finished.
Learn to live in real world.

It is no secret that 272 MKIs have already been ordered and an additional 40 are being contemplated at the moment (about 312-314 total). Please read the news. And the 350 figure comes from Prasun K. Sengupta who projected that number as the ultimately required fleet of MKIs - he also quoted that the first batch of Super-MKI upgraded versions (about 40 units) will arrive directly from Russia. Upto you if you want to believe him or not.

Someone projected it and you picked it.
On top of it you already started posting it every where that 350 MKI are coming.
Somebody's projection become news for you.
Even after MMRCA get finished, who was that great person, who projected that 200 Rafales are coming....?
Please tell us his name also.
And thanks in advance.

The total projected requirement of FGFA stands at 244 units. But IAF is trying to order them in as small batches as possible to keep spending in control & more flexible - the first tranche is of 60 aircraft. The FGFA (or advanced versions of it) will eventually replace the MKI in IAF service - that's the way it has to be. At that point numbers will further increase. All one needs is a little intuition and a lot of common sense to see that.
You are forgetting a basic fact; IAF has two jobs at the moment.

1) Replace older aircraft in service with newer inductions.
2) Expand the number of fighter squadrons, not reduce them.

That is why we are getting Rafale to replace the Jaguar & MiG-27, genius. Or have you been living under a rock till now?

Seriously sir, you are the genius. Not me. Even after MRCA got finished, you are still waiting for your 200 Rafales.

And sir, I love to live under a rock, rather than post comments based on somebody's projections.

And secondly, no, IAF has never asked for a "dedicated strike aircraft", it asked for a "multi-role fighter". Stop pulling imaginary requirements out of the backside. Rafale is brilliant in the tactical as well as nuclear strike role and at the moment, it is the plane which will eventually replace the existing dedicated strike aircraft like MiG-27s, followed by Jaguars. BUT the advantage here is that it's operational capability is not limited to the A2G role as the aircraft it will replace.

Sir, F/A-18 is a multirole aircraft, for your kind information.
If you are not sure, check it yourself.

At the moment, a plane called FGFA does not exist so we can't be getting it now.

But if the question is "are we working to get the FGFA?", the answer is yes. And as part of recent negotiations, we have managed to reduce the required R&D funding to $4 billion compared to previously estimated $6 billion. I must say that is some brilliant progress in the right direction. We also seem to have reached a conclusion that a per-unit cost would be around $225 million apiece.

Once the funds are released, actual work on the first 3 prototypes will begin. These prototypes are the PMI series.

So yeah, progress on the deal is ongoing. Rome was not built in a day, neither will be the FGFA.

Looks like kehta bhi deewana aur suta bhi deewana to me.
Why the hell in this world we have to pay $225 million for a Russian aircraft.....!
That too a air superiority crap.

People with wooden swords are the people who actually believe that IAF is going to stop Rafale procurement at just 36 aircraft. These are the people who have no idea about the operational requirements.

Boy, MMRCA is gone, Rafale selected by UPA is dead.
Again. that is reality. Now if you don't believe in it, then its not my fault.
And there are no chance of getting more Rafales. Its way too costly.
Live with it, you like it or not.

...and what are you a representative of? The new way of creepy defence thinking where we put all the eggs in the so-called "Indian" basket which is actually made of US fibers that would be embargoed at the drop of a hat?

Please explain yourself!

In other words typical anti American fan boy.
Who always prefer either Russia or Franc, no matter what.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Sir, smell some coffee, it will help.
Trust me.



Its a story, pure story. Any doubt...?
Did they ordered any of it yet....!



Sir, MMRCA is dead.
You like it or no but that is reality, its no more, its finished.
Learn to live in real world.



Someone projected it and you picked it.
On top of it you already started posting it every where that 350 MKI are coming.
Somebody's projection become news for you.
Even after MMRCA get finished, who was that great person, who projected that 200 Rafales are coming....?
Please tell us his name also.
And thanks in advance.



Seriously sir, you are the genius. Not me. Even after MRCA got finished, you are still waiting for your 200 Rafales.

And sir, I love to live under a rock, rather than post comments based on somebody's projections.



Sir, F/A-18 is a multirole aircraft, for your kind information.
If you are not sure, check it yourself.



Looks like kehta bhi deewana aur suta bhi deewana to me.
Why the hell in this world we have to pay $225 million for a Russian aircraft.....!
That too a air superiority crap.




Boy, MMRCA is gone, Rafale selected by UPA is dead.
Again. that is reality. Now if you don't believe in it, then its not my fault.
And there are no chance of getting more Rafales. Its way too costly.
Live with it, you like it or not.



In other words typical anti American fan boy.
Who always prefer either Russia or Franc, no matter what.

Zebra, I don' t know if IAF, MoD will stick with the initial plan of getting Rafale anywhere between 126 and 189 jets. Somehow I am not as optimistic as @Gessler on this, but he can be right and I can be wrong. What is certain , as he is saying, is that only 36 Rafale sounds like a giant waste of opportunity for India. You will invest in bases, training , logistics supply chain for only two squadrons. Check the views of a former IAF chief who expects at least 81 Rafale for India, equipping 4 squadrons : http://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?id=198&q=A-Gust-of-Wind

And Rafale in its marine version will be the best option for Indian Navy, if it goes with the CATOBAR design.

 

[Zebra]

Zebra, I don' t know if IAF, MoD will stick with the initial plan of getting Rafale anywhere between 126 and 189 jets. Somehow I am not as optimistic as @Gessler on this, but he can be right and I can be wrong. What is certain , as he is saying, is that only 36 Rafale sounds like a giant waste of opportunity for India. You will invest in bases, training , logistics supply chain for only two squadrons. Check the views of a former IAF chief who expects at least 81 Rafale for India, equipping 4 squadrons : http://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?id=198&q=A-Gust-of-Wind

And Rafale in its marine version will be the best option for Indian Navy, if it goes with the CATOBAR design.

Sir, if GoI is happy with it, then let them go for it.
Who am I to say anything in it.....!

 

[Gessler]

Its a story, pure story. Any doubt...?

It's an assessment. Not a story.

Did they ordered any of it yet....!

No. Does that mean they won't?

Sir, MMRCA is dead.
You like it or no but that is reality, its no more, its finished.
Learn to live in real world.

Sir ji, everyone knows MMRCA deal was cancelled long time ago, but the method of procurement has changed does not mean the requirement is not there anymore. It was only AFTER the MMRCA was buried that IAF/MoD started direct negotiations with Dassualt for the purchase & Make in India program of Rafales.

Someone projected it and you picked it.
On top of it you already started posting it every where that 350 MKI are coming.
Somebody's projection become news for you.

I have been following Prasun's coverage of defence issues for almost half a decade so I know I can trust him. As I said, if you don't want to believe him, that's your choice.

Even after MMRCA get finished, who was that great person, who projected that 200 Rafales are coming....?
Please tell us his name also.
And thanks in advance.

I'm not talking about MMRCA contract at all - I'm talking about the MMRCA requirement. The bidding was cancelled more than a year ago and now we're doing direct G2G deal with Dassault/France.

About 200 Rafales figure, if you can't believe me or any defense analyst then I suggest you go and talk with Subhash Bhojwani, an ex-IAF Air Marshal. In his words :

" There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft "

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...finalize-89-billion-deal-36-rafales/83221878/

Do the math. At 18 aircraft per active squadron, we get a figure of 180 planes. Which is close to the 126+63 figure which was mentioned years ago.

And sir, I love to live under a rock, rather than post comments based on somebody's projections.

Sir if you love to live under a rock (be ignorant/pessimistic), that's your choice. Just don't try to drag others under the rock as well.

Sir, F/A-18 is a multirole aircraft, for your kind information.

....so?

Why the hell in this world we have to pay $225 million for a Russian aircraft.....!

Wow.

That single line just made me realize from what point of view you're looking at the whole thing. How much you know about aircraft or aviation tech in general, and what kind of prejudiced behaviour you show.

Sorry but, I'm done replying to you.

 

[sasum]

We do have a short term challenge from communist China which we must carefully navigate.

Capitalism is basically ability to start a private enterprise using private capital, existence of stock markets, etc.

You are confused as is evident from your incoherent & contradictory posts. In China, one can start a Pvt Enterprise and there is Stock Market too !! Then China is Capitalist according to you ?