25 billion dollar PAK-FA deal crash lands

[Bahamut]

Engine , radar, bvr's, avionics,stealth skin and the list goes on

http://www.janes.com/article/58166/...stymied-by-lack-of-fifth-generation-qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities

The articles has a has a few factual mistake -
1.The present engine enough to give it performance of 5 gen fighter .It can super cruise,climb fastest, fast acceleration and low maintainces. The new engine will start test test in prototype in 2018.
2.There is GaN AESR radar for jet not PESR.

 

[Bahamut]

I think its only obvious that Russia will have a hard time keeping up with the US and other countries in terms of defense technologies.

Please go to these thread
1.http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/new-defence-technology.67963/page-2#post-1160011
2.http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...chievements-and-fun.76199/page-5#post-1160005

Russia today survives on its oil exports.

Oil is 10% of GDP ,same as IT.

although T-50 will sport a much more powerful ROFAR Radar now under developement

ASER is primary ,ROFAR willbe in upgrades only ,it is in its infancy

it is everything that IAF is looking for in FGFA..5th gen, total stealth, supercruise ability, adequate APG-77 AESA Radar

Do you know the cost of of Raptor and the maintenance problem.Raptor is dead plane ,no one will get it .

Two recent Russian press reports have indicated it will not have a supercruise capability with the existing engine.

It is super cruising with current engine ,please provide the link for that report.

An Indian military publication, Force Online, said the Indian version of the PAK FA “will reportedly have a RCS of 0.5 square meters ... while Lockheed Martin’s F/A-22 Raptor has the RCS of a small bird or a bumble bee at between 0.001 and 0.01 square metres.” Indian and Russian press reports are consistently attributing a 0.5 square meter RCS to both versions of the PAK FA.

You are using avg. RCS for PAK FA and frontal RCS for F 22

 

[sasum]

Do you know the cost of of Raptor and the maintenance problem.Raptor is dead plane ,no one will get it .

Raptor entered service in December 2015. Much ahead of its time for the many path-breaking technologies it incorporated. Since there was no competition for this aircraft from China & Russia at that time, US govt thought deploying this plane against 4th gen fighters would be overkill and decided to cap production at 187 nos. Thus the project lost economy of scale. After seeing its sterling performance in Syria, there is a strong murmur within the US govt to revive the production line. If that happens, the cost will come down. Spares will be available easily.

It is super cruising with current engine ,please provide the link for that report.

I have already given the link (below in blue) in my earlier post. The observation was from two anonymous Russian Pilots. You know how difficult it is to get any authentic information from Communist regimes.
Mark B. Schneider, RealClearDefense

 

[Screambowl]

american lobbyst in India are trying very hard for this.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The articles has a has a few factual mistake -
1.The present engine enough to give it performance of 5 gen fighter .It can super cruise,climb fastest, fast acceleration and low maintainces. The new engine will start test test in prototype in 2018.
2.There is GaN AESR radar for jet not PESR.

If this engine is going to be tested how does Russia expect 50 inducted by 2020?


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[garg_bharat]

If this engine is going to be tested how does Russia expect 50 inducted by 2020?
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50 looks difficult. Russia is giving preference to Su35 and Su30. Engine may not be such an issue but other things may be.

I think Indian funding will make a difference. It is unclear at this point when India will make a decision. I have doubts it will be this year.

 

[Gessler]

If this engine is going to be tested how does Russia expect 50 inducted by 2020?


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The first batches of PAK-FAs for Russian AF (including LRIP units) will come with AL-41F1 engines.

The Izdeliye-30 is a next-gen engine and is expected to be tested for the first time in 2018 as far as I remember. It could enter production in the 2020s and PAK-FAs which are built during that time will have the Izd-30 engine. All previous versions can also be upgraded with Izd-30 later on if required.

But this does not concern IAF at all because only our prototypes could fly with AL-41F1...all production-standard FGFAs are likely to have Izd-30, as we don't expect to induct the first operational FGFAs before 2024.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

If this engine is going to be tested how does Russia expect 50 inducted by 2020?


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Simke they will not wait for new engines they will take the current engines unlike the iaf

 

[BON PLAN]

Sputnik, Russian Govt News Agency claims, PAK FA's remarkable agility makes it superior to F-22/ Raptor & F-35 in dogfight. But last dogfight happened in 1988. All kills, thereafter, were by AAM, in which US fighters hold edge.
Mark B. Schneider, RealClearDefense
An Indian military publication, Force Online, said the Indian version of the PAK FA “will reportedly have a RCS of 0.5 square meters ... while Lockheed Martin’s F/A-22 Raptor has the RCS of a small bird or a bumble bee at between 0.001 and 0.01 square metres.” Indian and Russian press reports are consistently attributing a 0.5 square meter RCS to both versions of the PAK FA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia has said that the PAK FA will have a supercruise capability of Mach 1.7-1.8. The supercruise capability of the existing aircraft is reported by Piotr Butoswki to be Mach 1.3. Two recent Russian press reports have indicated it will not have a supercruise capability with the existing engine. By comparison, Aviation Week says the F-22 supercruises at Mach 1.78. Lockheed Martin indicates that the F-35 can supercruise at Mach 1.2.

F35 can't definitively supercruise. Or in a dive.....

 

[sasum]

F35 can't definitively supercruise. Or in a dive.....

OK. My emphasis was on Raptor vis-a-vis PAK FA.

 

[Bahamut]

You know how difficult it is to get any authentic information from Communist regimes.

They are a democracy now

Raptor entered service in December 2015

2005 not 2015

If that happens, the cost will come down. Spares will be available easily.

Say that after there is a confirmation of production of F22

 

[sasum]

2005 not 2015

My mobile's predictive text did this mischief as you may have guessed.

 

[sasum]

They are a democracy now

Communist regimes select their politburo members by vote. From that angle even China is democracy.
What differentiates China, Russia from US, India is, they are not multi-party democracy like us and decisions of politburo can not be challenged in court. There is no right to information in there.

 

[Bahamut]

Communist regimes select their politburo members by vote. From that angle even China is democracy.
What differentiates China, Russia from US, India is, they are not multi-party democracy like us and decisions of politburo can not be challenged in court. There is no right to information in there.

Russia has more Parties then US ,it is a multi party system .

 

[sasum]

Russia has more Parties then US ,it is a multi party system .

I know of only 5-6 political parties in Russia. All of them different flavours of communism, much like India having CPI, CPM, Forward Bloc, INC(socialist), RSP, Kerala Congress(anti-merger), Janata Dal(secular) and so on. Communism has more to do with socio-economic philosophy than parliamentary system.

 

[garg_bharat]

@sasum, most of Europe is socialist. Even USA and Canada are socialist by this definition.

Any non-religious party can be termed as socialist.

Your argument is hollow.

Russia is a multiparty democracy today just like other European states.

 

[sasum]

@sasum, most of Europe is socialist. Even USA and Canada are socialist by this definition.

Any non-religious party can be termed as socialist.

Your argument is hollow.

Russia is a multiparty democracy today just like other European states.

If USA, Canada, West Europe is Socialist, which is Capitalist ?

And in which democracy 'Religious Party' runs Govt ?
It is not only you, many people have poor perception of the terms communism & socialism. Communism has everything to do with economy; nothing to do with religion. Communists can follow a faith of their choice. Communism means all the State's resources, both revenue & natural belong to the community as a whole and not any individual/ Group/ Syndicate as in Capitalism. Socialism is a diluted version of Communism where Govt is duty-bound to look after welfare of Society in general through cooperatives, tax-benefits to needy and downtrodden, Controlling means of production of non-priority goods,implement social security network by means of old-age pension, health-insurance, doles and subsidies to poor etc. At the same time Pvt Enterprise is also allowed if they do not run counter to social welfare policy.

Democracy on the other hand has everything to do with system of governance (Rule of majority within certain parameters)and nothing with economy or religion. Opposite of Democracy is Autocracy(Monarchy) or Dictatorship exercised through sheer force of power. Governance by Religious entity as in Vatican, is called Theocracy not Democracy.
Thus Russia is multi-party democracy but not a Capitalist economy. It is no more a hard-core Communist but it's socio-economic policies follow Marx-Engels dictum. You can say it is Socialist.

 

[Bahamut]

Thus Russia is multi-party democracy but not a Capitalist economy.

They are a capitalist country , just look at the rank for doing Business and their policy .Today the only communist/socialist country is North Korea.Please base you opinion on hard facts .

 

[sasum]

They are a capitalist country , just look at the rank for doing Business and their policy .Today the only communist/socialist country is North Korea.Please base you opinion on hard facts .

N.Korea, Cuba, Libiya (under Gaddafi) are Dictatorships. Dictators wear a mask of Communism to be acceptable to outside world but actually they are least bothered about welfare of people. They follow neither Capitalism nor Socialism. The best way to gauge whether a regime is Communist/ Socialist is to see if it encourages public-pvt partnership. If you contend that Russia is Capitalist for their business policy, then I may say US is now Communist for her Obama-care initiative !

 

[garg_bharat]

The Russia can be called a capitalist system, though with strong elements of socialism which are present in several European states also.

Capitalism is basically ability to start a private enterprise using private capital, existence of stock markets, etc.

There is no institutional roadblock to our cooperation with Russia. I think fgfa has very high chance of materializing even if it happens with some delays.