25 billion dollar PAK-FA deal crash lands

[Gessler]

In 2002 MRCA deal ,2004 pakfa deal announced it is 2016 and there is no plane.

The current version of MMRCA (with Rafale, Typhoon, F-16, F/A-18, Gripen and MiG-35) was started only in 2007 and preferred aircraft was found only in 2012. The earlier MRCA (which included planes like Mirage-2000, MiG-29OVT, etc.) does not count.

PAK-FA is a new development - arguably the first "new fighter" developed in Russia after USSR collapse. Su-35/Mig-35 etc. were only variations of existing Soviet aircraft.

...and even the Russian AF has not inducted PAK-FA as yet and development of FGFA hasn't really begun. What deal are you talking about? Till date, we have not spent a penny on FGFA development.

This time and money could have invested in India and something could have materialized.

This is a ridiculous argument. Time did not go anywhere - all the people working on LCA were kept in their jobs, no one was uprooted or displaced because of foreign deals.

And also, there was never any fund crunch for indigenous aircraft projects. MoD promptly provided everything HAL/ADA/DRDO asked for - eventhough deadlines were being horribly missed and costs were escalating.

The Govt. and MoD did everything they could for the indigenous aviation industry - but the simple truth is that HAL, as well as most state-run companies, are downright incompetent!

That's why Modi/Parrikar have now decided to cultivate a private-sector industry instead.

 

[garg_bharat]

If we can give 12 billion up front to Russia it must be somewhere ? Just not in India.

There is no 12b to be given to Russia upfront. Where did you get this number?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The development cost is 4b for India as agreed. It is not 20b.

There will be a line setup cost and unit cost.

I doubt this will cost more than 200m per unit including weapons.

20 billion will be total cost ( which I doubt will be much higher)

200 planes on order at 200 million each will be 20 billion alone( apart from development costs)

 

[Gessler]

But do you believe pakfa will be delivered by 2017?

Yes, why not?

Russian AF will officially induct first PAK-FAs in 2017. But just like any previous fighter, there will be impovements in every tranche.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

There is no 12b to be given to Russia upfront. Where did you get this number?

Russian and Indian negotiators have bargained down the price for the Indo-Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)—which is being developed from the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA. The two sides have agreed to cut the price of the development from $12 billion to roughly $8 billion, saving the joint project from cancellation.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-bold-move-save-its-stealth-fighter-deal-15016

Russia’s Bold Move to Save Its Stealth Fighter Deal

 

[Gessler]

20 billion will be total cost ( which I doubt will be much higher)

200 planes on order at 200 million each will be 20 billion alone( apart from development costs)

That money will be spent over a decade's time. Not more than $500mn to $1bn will go out from the defence expenditure each year. In return, we get the world's most capable air-superiority fighter!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Yes, why not?

Russian AF will officially induct first PAK-FAs in 2017. But just like any previous fighter, there will be impovements in every tranche.

Su-35 avionics are used in pakfa currently from Jane's article above. I hope you are right( doubtful)

 

[Flame Thrower]

@LETHALFORCE

how much is given for R&D. you know that. please stop saying that money could have been invested in R & D, should have been invested in R&D.

a small mishap in any of the single project, then there are lot of people who come into picture to hinder that project.

you know lot more stuff in defence that me, you could give a huge list of projects which are being hindered.

kaveri is good example, am I wrong? and how much funding was given to set facilities, develop engine and testing. and it was cancelled because it achieved 90% of the thrust rather 100%. and the funding 3000 cr.

lets see the fate of Amca. One of the biggest hurdle is going to be funding for sure.

and to setup techbase is not going to be easy.

Folks: sorry, if I've said anything wrong or derailing thread.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

That money will be spent over a decade's team. Not more than $500mn to $1bn will go out from the defence expenditure each year. In return, we get the world's most capable air-superiority fighter!

20 billion over ten years is 2 billion a year

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@LETHALFORCE

how much is given for R&D. you know that. please stop saying that money could have been invested in R & D, should have been invested in R&D.

a small mishap in any of the single project, then there are lot of people who come into picture to hinder that project.

you know lot more stuff in defence that me, you could give a huge list of projects which are being hindered.

kaveri is good example, am I wrong? and how much funding was given to set facilities, develop engine and testing. and it was cancelled because it achieved 90% of the thrust rather 100%. and the funding 3000 cr.

lets see the fate of Amca. One of the biggest hurdle is going to be funding for sure.

and to setup techbase is not going to be easy.

Folks: sorry, if I've said anything wrong or derailing thread.

I do not know what or where Russians are using this money? IMO atleast 4-6 billion may have already been invested by India based on 8-12 billion development number and 50 percent investment? biggest obstacle for India and China has been developing crystal blade engine technology.

 

[Gessler]

20 billion over ten years is 2 billion a year

I said "over a decade". Not a decade.

Stop nitpicking, it makes you look desperate to prove something that's not there.

 

[Superdefender]

Russian and Indian negotiators have bargained down the price for the Indo-Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)—which is being developed from the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA. The two sides have agreed to cut the price of the development from $12 billion to roughly $8 billion, saving the joint project from cancellation.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-bold-move-save-its-stealth-fighter-deal-15016

Russia’s Bold Move to Save Its Stealth Fighter Deal

Buddy, that was $6 billion for India $6 billion for Russia earlier. Now it is $4 billion for each country. Which time are living in? Seems like you are posting after travelling some sort of time machine!! No offence...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I said "over a decade". Not a decade.

Stop nitpicking, it makes you look desperate to prove something that's not there.

What is your honest opinion of this deal? Putin is not the most pro India Russian leader and I am sure chinese and (American) pressure is there.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I said "over a decade". Not a decade.

Stop nitpicking, it makes you look desperate to prove something that's not there.

What is your honest opinion of this deal? Putin is not the most pro India Russian leader and I am sure chinese and (American) pressure is there.

 

[Gessler]

I do not know what or where Russians are using this money? IMO atleast 4-6 billion may have already been invested by India based on 8-12 billion development number and 50 percent investment?

Total amount for R&D and prototype development that will go out of India will be $4 billion. This amount will be spent over seven years time. And during this time, it will cover setting up of production facilities.

What this means is that if funding starts next year, then by 2024 all the technologies of FGFA will be developed & operational, and all production facilities will be running.

Till date, not a penny has gone out of India for the purpose of FGFA R&D. HOW CAN WE START SPENDING MONEY EVEN BEFORE THE DEAL IS FINALIZED?? Please think logically!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Buddy, that was $6 billion for India $6 billion for Russia earlier. Now it is $4 billion for each country. Which time are living in? Seems like you are posting after travelling some sort of time machine!! No offence...

So price has gone down as time has gone by? Makes sense. The issue is not cost. we have committed . I would like to see it completed.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Total amount for R&D and prototype development that will go out of India will be $4 billion. This amount will be spent over seven years time. And during this time, it will cover setting up of production facilities.

What this means is that if funding starts next year, then by 2024 all the technologies of FGFA will be developed & operational, and all production facilities will be running.

Till date, not a penny has gone out of India for the purpose of FGFA R&D. HOW CAN WE START SPENDING MONEY EVEN BEFORE THE DEAL IS FINALIZED?? Please think logically!

This deal has not progressed due to a lack of funds. Russian economic sanctions and collapse in oil price.

 

[Gessler]

What is your honest opinion of this deal? Putin is not the most pro India Russian leader and I am sure chinese and (American) pressure is there.

Putin is, first and foremost, pro-Russia.

There is no external pressure.

The deal will be done and IAF will eventually get the aircraft it needs & deserves.

 

[Flame Thrower]

funding for LCA is good example. you need more?

c'mon man you know about our funding procedure and yet why are you talking in this way.

if we really spend 2 billion for amca, engines and other indigenous projects. i would be really happy. i wish to see that day by this end of decade

 

[LETHALFORCE]

funding for LCA is good example. you need more?

c'mon man you know about our funding procedure and yet why are you talking in this way.

if we really spend 2 billion for amca, engines and other indigenous projects. i would be really happy. i wish to see that day by this end of decade

For last three years I have only seen negative news of pakfa deal. Again my concern is not funding or cost only that the deal is completed. India is putting all the eggs in the Russian basket with the time invested it has placed the air force in a difficult position. It has been 2 decades and planes have not arrived from anywhere except France.