25 billion dollar PAK-FA deal crash lands

[spikey360]

The PMO/MoD should find the IAF officer responsible for this mischief and squash him like a bug. It is almost clear now that we have a massive breach in the IAF hierarchy.

 

[Gessler]

Many of the systems needed for a fifth gen plane have not been developed yet

Such as....?

..................................................

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Such as....?

..................................................

Engine , radar, bvr's, avionics,stealth skin and the list goes on

http://www.janes.com/article/58166/...stymied-by-lack-of-fifth-generation-qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities

 

[Flame Thrower]

@LETHALFORCE

I like your posts in other threads, but this is not a good one.

There are few projects which simply can't fail because of their importance.

LCA Tejas, F-35, J-20, Pak Fa are few examples of many strategic projects. Even if they fail, can't be replaced.

There might be lot of delay, product may under perform or economy may cause impacts but at the end we'll see the product.

@LETHALFORCE

please don't take me in wrong way, but I don't think this thread is needs to be open.

 

[garg_bharat]

Engine , radar, bvr's, stealth skin and the list goes on

http://www.janes.com/article/58166/...stymied-by-lack-of-fifth-generation-qualities

Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities

The Russian way of developing planes is different from others. It is incremental and reflects maturity and capability of Russian industry.

I do not expect PAKFA to be at the same level as F22. If IAF expects that then the project is a nonstarter. I think it will be somewhat better than Su35 in stealth and a lot better in weapons.

If IAF's expectations are at right level then this will work, otherwise not.

I also believe that ToT expectations should reduce if India keep on delaying its funding. After all it is Russia that is pumping in money and India is only sitting and complaining.

Russia needs this fighter more than India so it will happen, whether India participates or not.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

They won't let China in on their PAK-FA secrets. Not yet, anyway. Why, you may ask. Well, China and Russia are competing powers in the non-nuclear strategic space. Although they collaborate a lot on paper on geo-strategic issues, collaboration on the ground is non-existent. The Russians don't view the dishonest Chinese as friendly people either.

What the GoI should do/could do is threaten to pull out of PAKFA deal and ask the infinitely wise and competent IAF to bring home a 5th Gen FA with all the PAKFA features, in same numbers. Then we'll see how the IAF manages. The most corrupt branch of the armed forces.

Once it is sold to China it is guaranteed to be reversed engineered. What strategic benefit does it give India if your enemy has the same plane? This excuse was used to reject f-16 in MRCA.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@LETHALFORCE

I like your posts in other threads, but this is not a good one.

There are few projects which simply can't fail.

LCA Tejas, F-35, J-20, Pak Fa, many strategic projects. Even if they fail, can't be replaced.

There might be lot of delay, product may under perform or economy may cause impacts.

@LETHALFORCE

please don't take me in wrong way, but I don't think this thread is needs to be open.

You are reacting emotionally. This hopefully is not true but if it is how will Indian Air Force prepare for it? Of course Russia will also fully leverage Indian position. 10 years wasted on MRCA wasted and it failed why can't this? Many big collaborations with Russia have been disasters why would this be different. For me the smerch fiasco was a major disappointment but it was made up with other developments/acquisitions
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...sfer-for-smerch-rockets-to-india.62156/page-4

 

[spikey360]

Once it is sold to China it is guaranteed to be reversed engineered. What strategic benefit does it give India if your enemy has the same plane? This excuse was used to reject f-16 in MRCA.

My second paragraph - "threat", I meant GoI threat the IAF. Which is acting in a step-daughterly manner.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@spikey360

When you invest 25 billion dollars you are developing a whole new industry.
Why do it with foreigners? Do it indigenously. I don't like to see India buy any
Foreign weapons and have money leave the country.

 

[garg_bharat]

India needs to decide what it wants. It is India that has to bridge the technology gap. This gap is not closing and will actually widen if India keeps on taking wrong decisions.

The correct strategy is to build planes in India. Now we need to see which tech is available. If West is ready to share its tech, then yes we should prefer that. If not, the Russian tech is all we got.

As regards local designs, we need to mature LCA before we make a big jump.

Betting on a paper horse may not win us any races.

 

[Flame Thrower]

@LETHALFORCE

If it is to be made entirely in India, I can assure you it won't get R&D budget more that 2 billion for sure. That sanctioning will be done by EOD 2035

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India needs to decide what it wants. It is India that has to bridge the technology gap. This gap is not closing and will actually widen if India keeps on taking wrong decisions.

The correct strategy is to build planes in India. Now we need to see which tech is available. If West is ready to share its tech, then yes we should prefer that. If not, the Russian tech is all we got.

As regards local designs, we need to mature LCA before we make a big jump.

Betting on a paper horse may not win us any races.

In 2002 MRCA deal ,2004 pakfa deal announced it is 2016 and there is no plane. This time and money could have invested in India and something could have materialized.

 

[garg_bharat]

@spikey360

When you invest 25 billion dollars you are developing a whole new industry.
Why do it with foreigners? Do it indigenously. I don't like to see India buy any
Foreign weapons and have money leave the country.

You are making a fundamental mistake. You are assuming we are paying 25b to Russia. This is not the case.

In reality, we shall not pay more than half of this amount. Rest of value addition will happen in India.

And this will create/sustain at least 10000 high tech jobs in India.

 

[Gessler]

Engine ,

The Saturn 117 has all the qualities of the F119 and the F135. Infact it delivers better aerodynamic performance and considerably high supercruise capability to the PAK-FA.

radar

Radar is already there on some T-50 prototypes. And it's a lot more advanced than APG-77 and a lot bigger than APG-81. Agreed it's not in production as yet, but all the building blocks of the technology (AESA transceiver modules, GaN architecture etc.) is already developed long time ago and existing. Plus PAK-FA has conformal radar arrays which you won't find on other "fifth gen" aircraft.

bvr's,

All existing versions of AMRAAM and existing versions of R-77 have similar technologies and capabilities. Plus Russia already has huge leaps in AAM technology like fully digital AESA seeker in development while AMRAAM has no such development path as yet.

avionics,

Specifically which?

Radar computers? Already there.
Electro-optical sensors? Already there.
EW suites? Still in testing...but 'developed' nonetheless.
Cockpit systems? Su-35 itself has surpassed F-22 in that regard.

stealth skin

No one applies "stealth skin" at this stage of testing. On any plane. This is YF-22 in testing -

...and X-35.

You won't find any saw-toothed edges on anything either. That stuff comes later.

and the list goes on

Apparently it does not.

Janes, FlightGlobal, AIOnline etc. are Western lackeys.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@LETHALFORCE

If it is to be made entirely in India, I can assure you it won't get R&D budget more that 2 billion for sure. That sanctioning will be done by EOD 2035

Then why ask for TOT if you cannot benefit by changing making better? Just remain a buyer. There is no time to develop now it is crucial to buy to fill in gaps.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

You are making a fundamental mistake. You are assuming we are paying 25b to Russia. This is not the case.

In reality, we shall not pay more than half of this amount. Rest of value addition will happen in India.

And this will create/sustain at least 10000 high tech jobs in India.

This was development cost . Cost of planes will be 200 million each . Three years ago the deal was suppose to be 20 billion. I am sure it will be over 30 billion in a few years.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@Gessler

Most of the things on pakfa are prototypes. Nothing to make it ready for 2017 delivery or even production. Russia wants India to shell out more money like gorshokov. You can say these are propaganda articles by western defense industry . But do you believe pakfa will be delivered by 2017?

http://theaviationist.com/2015/04/07/t-50-pak-fa-new-problems/


RUSSIAN NEXT GENERATION STEALTH FIGHTER TO FALL VICTIM TO THE RUSSIAN FINANCIAL CRISIS?

 

[garg_bharat]

In 2002 MRCA deal ,2004 pakfa deal announced it is 2016 and there is no plane. This time and money could have invested in India and something could have materialized.

Where is that money "to invest in India"? HAL has been crying for piddly amounts to set up LCA production line which Congressi govt did not sanction in 10 years.

You see money which others cannot see.

The delays will occur when program goals are hazy and programs are underfunded.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Where is that money "to invest in India"? HAL has been crying for piddly amounts to set up LCA production line which Congressi govt did not sanction in 10 years.

You see money which others cannot see.

The delays will occur when program goals are hazy and programs are underfunded.

If we can give 12 billion up front to Russia it must be somewhere ? Just not in India.

 

[garg_bharat]

This was development cost . Cost of planes will be 200 million each . Three years ago the deal was suppose to be 20 billion. I am sure it will be over 30 billion in a few years.

The development cost is 4b for India as agreed. It is not 20b.

There will be a line setup cost and unit cost.

I doubt this will cost more than 200m per unit including weapons.