22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21s, crashed since 2011

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Ganesh2691, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. Ganesh2691

    Ganesh2691 Regular Member

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    New Delhi: In the last three years, 22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21 planes, and 18 helicopters of the armed forces have crashed in which 49 people including 44 defence personnel were killed, Lok Sabha was informed today.

    “From 2011-12 to 2012-13 and current year, 22 fighter aircraft including 10 MiG-21s and 18 helicopters of armed forces have crashed,” Defence Minister AK Antony said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.

    In these accidents, apart from the loss of aircraft, 44 defence personnel and five civilians lost their lives, he said.

    Replying to another query, the Defence Minister said the government has plans of operating the MiG-21 Bison aircraft till 2025.

    “The upgraded version of MiG 21-Bis known as the Bison, is planned to be operational beyond 2019 up to 2025. MiG Bis is planned to be decommissioned in 2018 as originally scheduled,” Antony said.

    On the investigation into the VIP chopper deal, he said the CBI had earlier frozen the accounts of former IAF chief SP Tyagi and his relatives.

    “However, subsequently all the bank accounts have been de-frozen as per a court order, imposing certain conditions on the bank account holders,” he said.

    On the ceasefire violations by Pakistan, Antony said in the last six months, there have been 33 such cases in which one Indian soldier has died while three have been injured.

    He said in June alone, 11 such ceasefire violation incidents have been reported.
    On the devastation caused by the floods in Uttarakhand, the Minister said around 48.3 kms of roads in stretches of strategic importance with BRO have been washed out.

    The roads of strategic importance have been built along the China border, he added.

    http://www.firstpost.com/india/22-f...ng-10-mig-21s-crashed-since-2011-1011563.html
     
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  3. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    MiG 21s till 2025? WTF!!
     
  4. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Its criminal on the part of Govt to allow Mig-21s to fly.
    Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts.
     
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  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    I was honoured to be asked to review the book "50 years of the MiG 21" by the author Air Marshal Rajkumar. Please allow me to post an excerpt from the review

    Late Wing Co Suresh, one of the pilots of Longewala, and who has a Sabre kill to his credit and who later converted to the MiG 21 wrote an article for the magazine "Indian Aviation" that is mirrored at the following link
    BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

    Here is a short excerpt from the article
     
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  6. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Induct Tejas in current form , Will save lives ..
     
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  7. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even inducting Tejas in current form will take the replacement time of Bis version to 2018 and Bison variant to well beyond 2018.

    The article gives the probable time 2025. Only the time 2025 can be squeezed by 2-3 years by inducting Tejas in current form.
     
  8. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    I have been advocating buying the 2nd hand M2000 from UAE. It adds muscle ot the IAF immediately and also allows them to retire the Mig 21s.
     
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  9. Ash

    Ash Regular Member

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    How does this attrition rate compare against crashes of other airforces?

    " Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts" .India should approach South Africa to buy their Grippens as the South African Airforce cannot afford to keep these planes in the air and as a result these planes are being kept in storage.
     
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  10. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    the advantage of buying 2nd hand M2K is that you have a pool of pilots who have flying time on these aircrafts, spares is not a big issue so logistically it makes a perfect match.
     
  11. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    There was negotiation for buying UAE M-2000 but that fell apart because of price quoted by them. Isn't that true?
     
  12. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is the reason I heard: Failed commercial negotiations & some naysaying on behalf of Dassault (something to do with production line closing).

    However, I understand that spare-part supply should continue long after the prod. line is closed as per the contract with the original buyer.
     
  13. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    I do not know what was the reason but the underlying facts are very clear

    1. We need to retire Mig 21s at the earliest. Bisons can go on for some time but the older variants need to be packed.

    2. Rafael will not be coming in for at least 3-4 years, and getting the numbers will take time.

    3. For whatever reason LCA is also off by 3-4 year time frame or maybe more. Also we do not know what is the level of preparedness at HAL for the assembly line.

    SU 30 MKI is coming in but that does not solve the problem.
     
  14. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    There is a problem with one-on-one comparisons with other air forces for the following two reasons

    1. The IAF flies in some of the harshest flying conditions on earth, and temperature and altitude variations that almost no other air force faces.
    2. The IAF _flies_a_lot_. One way of stopping crashes altogether is to not fly at all.

    Another thing that is not appreciated is the fact that the IAF does not induct aircraft like a rich man buys cars - simply to add to his collection. The IAF inducts aircraft like a top notch football team manager selects top players - as a person who is both capable, and one who can integrate and work seamlessly with all the other team members.

    Simply buying aircraft does not cut it. Believe it or not - Pakistan has, in the past, simply bought/inducted aircraft without te capability of fitting them in as a team. Some of Pakistan's'AWACS purchases were like this. Nothing is acquired by the IAF if it cannot be fitted in with existing doctrines and requirements. No blind purchases
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
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  15. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Let me add one more point.

    Why do you not find bees in an anthill? Because ants live in the anthill and not bees.

    The meaning of this remark is that the largest number of IAF crashes have been of a type that the IAF uses most and has in the largest numbers. At one time half the air force was MiG 21 so nearly half the accidents were MiG 21. In fact Mig 23s and MiG 27s were crashing a lot more, but nobody noticed.

    But I do feel that twin engines are safer. i would be happy to see Rafale coming in, followed by increasing numbers of Tejas which appears to be safe like the Mirage. It is a fact that fighter flying is associated with risks. That is why or fighter pilots are the best there are and they are precious. We must help and protect them but we must also understand the truth. If pilots say the MiG 21 is good we must not simply dismiss that as nonsense and accept what the media (who may be getting paid by someone suspicious) might say.
     
  16. vishwaprasad

    vishwaprasad Regular Member

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    Wow!!! only 22....more should have been crashed....

    Indian citizens life is anyway cheap in India...be it civilions or our brave pilots or soldiers....we are the country where neighbouring country soldiers come and easily kill our soildiers and go back and guess what??? our so called PURE NATURED defense minister Antony says that terrorists came in the uniform of PAKI army and killed them.....I feel sorry for this country for being in the hands of such hopeless people....

    Still Rafale deal signature is not even on horizon....

    A single letter from any tom dick and harry makes this Antony to either hold the deal or cancel it....where his pureness now when time has come to answer enemy???

    I wonder why is he even a defense minister??? He is better in Himalaya in the form of some monk....

    And what to say abt our respected PM MMS....He will as usual keep quite and in mind sing a song... KUCH TOH LOG KAHENGE...LOGO KA KAAM HAI KAHNA...CHODO IN BEKAR KI BATON KO, KAHI BITA NA JAAYE RAINA....
     
  17. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    mate,don't get angry on our Govt. as the reality is that the training of the IAF pilots is several notch below than that of the NATO standard due to the chronic shortage of all types of trainers(basic,intermediate and advance).it was only recently that the IAF started to induct the Hawk AJT aircrafts to its inventory which can be used both as an intermediate and an advanced jet and only a couple of months back IAF started to induct sizable numbers of Pilatus P-7 basic trainers in its inventory.before these inductions the IAF pilots used to train their basic courses in HAL HPT-32(Deepak) turboprop aircraft which were more than 30 years old and for their intermediate course the IAF used the Kiran HJT-16 which is more than 40 years old,then they used to train their advance flying courses directly in the Mig-21 supersonic fighters which was completely wrong as the descending speed of a basic Mig-21 aircraft is more than 3 times higher than that of an AJT aircraft.so many of the rookie pilots made the mistake of calculating the necessary speed reduction during their descend and hence most of them crashed their aircraft.so this is one of the reasons why the IAF had a crash rate which is many times higher than the accepted crash rate of NATO.
    secondly,most of the aircraft in the current IAF inventory are of Soviet origin and we all know that the soviet designed airframes have a much shorter lifespan than that of their western counterparts.the soviets knew this and hence used to fly their aircraft for a maximum of 100-150 hrs in a year.but on the other hand the IAF maintains the strict NATO standard of flying atleast 200+ hrs a year for every aircraft and hence most of these soviet airframes get wear off due to this excessive flying hrs as they were not built for this.
    so this is another major reason why the crash rate of the IAF is much higher than any of its western counterpart.Period!
     
  18. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Mikhail the MiG 21 has an airframe life of 2500 hours. The Su 30 has an airframe life of 6000 hours. Which soviet aircraft has an airframe life of 150 hours?

    The IAF does not fly beyond airframe life hours and the performance in red Flag and other exercises do not support your contention of "a notch below NATO". I would like to see a few references, or please simply state that you are posting an opinion/guesswork
     
  19. CCTV

    CCTV Regular Member

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    Those soviet aircrafts were maintained by HAL.
     
  20. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    You're confusing 150 hours per year with 2500 hours total, across the entire life of the airframe.

    If you're flying 150 hours per year, then it takes 17 years to burn off 2500 hours. If you're flying 200 hours per year, it takes only 12 years. The average Mig 21 airframe in the IAF is over 20 years old.
     
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  21. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    There are critical components which have to be checked thoroughly every 150 or 200 hours and changed between 400 to 500 hours depending on the results of the 1st inspection.
     

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