1ST F-22 Shot Down

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by A.V., May 4, 2009.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    here is a you tube video showing a simulation of an f-22 been shot down for the very first time by a T-38, the f-22 is clearly visible, no official confirmation of the video though

    the link is provided as cannot embed the video here

    YouTube - T-38 vs F-22


    click on the youtube logo on the video here to watch/redirected to youtube
     
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  3. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    It's bound to happen in close fighting paths cross the F-22 pilot may have not even know he was being targeted. Might have even been a F-22 pilot in training and still learning who knows. It's not like the T-38 pick him at 25 miles away and tracked him and made the kill right? I saw a few months ago an F/A-18G painted a F-22 on the side of his aircraft for a mock training kill. Its so rare what is this like the third or forth in what six years with hundreds and hundreds of flights.

    The bottom line the F-22 is plain nasty and we all know it. Sometimes its hard for them to get other squadrons to train against them, nobody wants to waste there training flight hours getting their asses kick all over the sky.

    This is an aircraft where seven F-15C Eagles get shot down and they the pilots (who train 100% air to air with 250/300 hours) even have an idea where the F-22 is or at least what part of sky its operating from get waxed.

    Take stuff like this with a grain of salt.
     
  4. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    yes rock its true the video might be a training one with the f-22 pilot not even knowing that he is being targetted the f-22 is the best fighter around but it shows that on a given day one on one or with dog-fight any pilot can get plain lucky... even against the F-22
     
  5. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    I think the F22 is overhyped. It may very well be the best fighter around, considering that it costs $250 million a piece, but it's status is almost legendary in the eyes of most of the fighter enthusiast community. The Raptor's stealth features seem to be exaggerated. With the new Russian A2A missiles which have a range of upto 400 km, in the near future, A Su-30 MKI shooting down Raptors may not be a fantasy anymore.
     
  6. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    Lets talk when this so called new "Russian A2A missiles which have a range of up to 400 km" I've been hearing this exaggerated claim for many years now as well. The F-22 is real and flying while most of the Russian wonder weapons are not even in production. How would this magical missile get a lock in the first place and then even harder keep it? Russia still building heavy Su-35 and having trouble getting them out of the door. Russia doesn't make high tech equipment anymore very well nor has the production means to do so.

    I don't want to turn this into a bashing Russia threat but there R&D is a very small percentage of what the US spends. India's never going to get cutting edge tech from Russia and if they do it will be in very small isolated areas and using Indian money.

    The steady funding for Russia's R&D isn't there period there aircraft and advance weapons industries suffer for this. The skilled workers are basically gone as well as the once strong production capabilities of years past.
     
  7. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    rock45,

    The Russian missiles I'm talking about are the KS-172, in which India has invested significantly for its Su-30 MKI aircraft, and the Vympel R37, which has a range of about 300 km. They are both active homing radar guided missiles, and don't depend on the launch platform to hit the target. I don't think the F22 could escape detection from that range (300-400 km), regardless of how good its stealth capabilities are.

    Secondly, while Russian tech might not be the best in the world, it is certainly second best, and when coupled with French, Israeli and Indian tech as in the MKI, can result in one of the best flying machines in the air today. As for funding, Russia is increasingly engaged in joint development programmes with India and China, and these two countries can more than make up for the funding shortfall.
     
  8. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    Hi Known_Unknown
    Does invested mean operational in India's AF?

    Think about it if a powerful fighter radar can't get a lock on a F-22 or even a AWACS platform what makes you think the tiny seeker in a missile will be able to see and lock onto an stealth aircraft from those distances? I just don't see it.

    I don't know if I would rate Russia tech second best maybe in certain areas but I can't see Russia touching what the Israeli's can do. India is doing the right thing to invest/learn from/ work with the Israeli's.

    I see you defended the MKI Flanker I never mentioned anything bad about it. Overall I would rate the MKI type Flankers one of the best operational fighters in the world. I would like to see it grow in the AG role more if I had to find one area of improvement. The key is operational some of Russia's projects, weapons, platforms, never seem to get going.

    I don't have the names and I don't usually like to post statements without support but I read in a different forum that, one of the two Russian companies designing these long range missile actually closed. It's difficult enough just trying to find update/upgrade information on Russia's AA-12 missile never mind staying locked onto a moving target with jamming gear onboard, from that far. Russia used to be a world leader but years of little or no funding hurt them in this field.

    Besides one shot down F-117 which flew in and out of the battle area basically on the same routes nothing Russia or anybody really produced shows they can track stealth. The F-117 I'm sure is over 25 years old or more right or at least the designs for it? Russia can say they can or better yet "we could if we wanted to" but to date has shown no proof.

    That's why I'm not a PAKA fan because nothing the Russians have shown even compare to the F-117 never mind a poor man's F-22. I'm not saying the Russians couldn't do it but it takes steady funding and support to the companies and industry to produce it.

    Sorry for the long post but that's why I would like to see India invest in the newer tech with the UK, France, or other western firms/companies, doesn't even have to be the United States.

    One can see the AIM-120 come along with different public released upgrades, one can see the F-22 and the production lines that made it, and one can see the F-35 production lines and know the US has the means. I just don't see that with Russia
     
  9. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    rock45,

    You're right, the Russians suffer from lack of funding. However, I think they're still one of the best in aerospace engineering. They have the technical knowhow, but lack the funding to implement it. That funding is coming from India and China in the form of joint development programmes as I said. I mentioned the MKI as an example of Russian engineering (with other additions), still being able to take on anything in the US inventory, except the F22.

    As for the KS-172, since it has a 400 km range, then obviously the missile will be able to see the F22 before the F22 sees it, right? Wiki says that when the radar of the KS-172 is jammed (don't you need to know the frequency of the radar's operation before you can jam it?), it settles into a passive homing mode to home into the target that jammed it. Besides, I've heard a fighter pilot say that the avoiding being seen is the most effective way to ensure one's survival. Once an enemy missile has been launched, survival becomes a matter of chance.

    I agree that the KS-172 is not in operation yet, but if India is providing the funding, we must have seen something that was viable and would provide a good return on investment. The Indian government, just like most Indians is very money conscious (read stingy), and would only invest in foreign projects that are considered to have a high rate of success. Examples: Brahmos.
     
  10. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    Hi Known_Unknown
    You lost me right here how does this missile see the F-22, I don't get that what do you base that on? If AWACS, fighter radar's, and ground base radar's don't see the F-22's how does the missile do it and at such a range? I don't mean to say this in a insulting way but this seems to be the missile company's sale pitch and not fact. And the launch platform would also need to see the F-22 to shoot at or some radar somewhere to see and at least data link the information to the missile. Then at such a range the missile itself would need updates because the F-22 would be moving so some magical radar somewhere would need to require the F-22 again for missile guidance updates.

    This built by a country that sends almost a 30 year old Cold War bomber over a little Georgia for a recon flight in a war. They couldn't see what was fifty miles inside Georgia never mind hitting a stealth fighter from 400km away. I just don't see it's too high tech for Russia in there current state. Just seeing a fighter size target at 400km is a feat by itself never mind actually hitting something at that range, just to big of a escape zone.

    Using your own words this is what the F-22 does
     
  11. Sailor

    Sailor Regular Member

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    All BS [Official allowable forum abbreviation]
    In your dreams.
     
  12. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    Not the first, they are "shot" in training many times, thats AFTER they'v already shot the intruding aircraft more than twice at BVR though.
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    If there is a radar lock, then the F-22 radar warning will tell it that there is a lock. Lock doesnt mean the F-22 cant evade.
     
  14. Auberon

    Auberon Regular Member

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    Yes but there isn't a radar lock in this case, that is just the gun sight you see, training t38s don't have a radar at all.
     
  15. John

    John Guest

    well the KS-172S can't be used to kill the Raptor simply because no aircraft will get a lock onto it until the aircraft is just a few miles away, secondly KS-172s is an awacs, tanker, transport killer, its is effective against large targets, To hit the Raptor is not easy. most of the kills during sims were gun kills including a F-18SH gun kill.
     
  16. indian_sukhoi

    indian_sukhoi Regular Member

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    Applauds to Rock and Unknown, That was a fruitful discussions!! :113:

    Before we go banging F-22 let you remind you guys that K-172 missile is designed as 'AWACS Killer'. The Soviets looked for solution to the AWACS problem so they developed K-172.


    Raptors were designed to counter any kind of Soviet Threat. After the Fall of Soviet the US Govt doesnt sees any necessity to have Raptors anymore, so they inducting only 183 instead of 700 Aircrafts of these.
    Face the facts,....Soviet is Dead, get over it. Russia has nothing in its inventory to compete the Raptor.
     
  17. John

    John Guest

    well may be the PAKFA touches a nerve, off-course i doubt the PAKFA can quite cruise like the F-22 at mach 1.8 or have a 360 view of over 1000km but i am sure PAKFA can attain cruise speeds upto mach 1.4 with a good load. It will be very maneuverable and agile but offcourse the radar, jammers etc. wont be able to match that of the Raptor. KS-172S will be used against the large fleets of chinki and PAki transports, awacs, tankers etc.
     

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