1962 China war can't be repeated: Indian Army chief

[Oracle]

What a load of rubbish. You are asking him what he meant and lecturing me that KB answered exactly as the answer should have been given. Hats off to your hypocrisy.

Ah ha!

I said I know Kunal. I know what can be his intentions. I don't know you. I have seen your posts. You at times are an idiot.

Forgive me, I know not what I say at times.

 

[Ray]

To cut the debate short. even with what we have, we can stop the Chinese. I have no doubts about that.

However, if we have what Kunal is saying we still lack, it will be the Chinese who will have to think of stopping us!

 

[Ray]

Indian Army (or Armed Forces ?) consist of about 3% Muslims where as Muslims are 14-15% of Indian Population but the same figure is proportionately very high for Sikhs. So does this mean Indian Army is not secular? Reservation in Indian Army, anyone ?

It is wrong to bring in religion into recruitment as it is silly to say that SC should have promotions out of turn irrespective of merit.

One can say that there is a very disproportionate representation of Bengalis in the Army since the quota (if acceptable with all parameters for recruitment are met) are being taken up by Biharis who have stayed long enough in Bengal to claim Bengal domicile.

Now, would that be fair?

If Biharis of Bengal are better qualified than Bengalis of Bengal, who has stopped the Bengalis to be better qualified?

If Muslims are not meeting the standards (mostly education) is it the Recruitment policies fault?

Be rational!

Like it or not, it is no longer Sikh predominant. It is South Indian predominant. They are more educated and sharper and so they are now leading the lot!

Please do not bring politics, religion and community when such things don't bother the IA.

What bothers is the issue of recruiting the Fittest in all respects.

I assure you that the Chinese or Pakistanis will not be stopped in their tracks or be bothered because one is a SC/ ST/ Muslim/ Christian or a Sikh, Bengali, Oriya, MP tribal even if it please our quota doling politicians!

 

[Oracle]

To cut the debate short. even with what we have, we can stop the Chinese. I have no doubts about that.

However, if we have what Kunal is saying we still lack, it will be the Chinese who will have to think of stopping us!

That is the attitude I want Indians to have. After having spent considerable time in this forum, I see Northies/Southies selling gas and nothing else. Bloody kids dancing on the keyboard.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I personally dont know we can stop or not, But do know at cost of it...

 

[average american]

To cut the debate short. even with what we have, we can stop the Chinese. I have no doubts about that.

However, if we have what Kunal is saying we still lack, it will be the Chinese who will have to think of stopping us!

CHINA;;;;

Active Military: 2,285,000 [2011]
Active Reserve: 800,000 [2011]


LAND ARMY

Total Land Weapons: 47,575
Tanks: 7,500 [2012]
APCs / IFVs: 7,700 [2012]
Towed Artillery: 25,000 [2012]
SPGs: 2,475 [2011]
MLRSs: 2,600 [2011]
Mortars: 1,050 [2011]
AT Weapons: 1,250 [2011]
AA Weapons: 750 [2011]
Logistical Vehicles: 55,850

AIR POWER

Total Aircraft: 5,176 [2012]
Helicopters: 632 [2012]
Serviceable Airports: 502

INDIA;;;
Active Military: 1,325,000 [2011]
Active Reserve: 1,747,000 [2011]


LAND ARMY

Total Land Weapons: 75,191
Tanks: 5,000 [2011]
APCs / IFVs: 3,000 [2011]
Towed Artillery: 10,000 [2011]
SPGs: 100 [2011]
MLRSs: 292 [2011]
Mortars: 5,000 [2011]
AT Weapons: 51,799 [2011]
AA Weapons: 15,508 [2011]
Logistical Vehicles: 70,000

AIR POWER

Total Aircraft: 2,462 [2011]
Helicopters: 848 [2011]
Serviceable Airports: 352 [2011]

Dont look good.....

 

[Oracle]

/\/\/\ Dude, please. It's much more than facts and figures.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read Geography..

Its terrain what counts..

 

[Blackwater]

can be repeated because of======

1) chini fighters roam around LAC and we sit in bunker complaining

2) chini developed infrastructure along LAC and we still thinking in issuing tenders

3) chini crosses LAC and paint red we issue tender to clean it

 

[roma]

Kunal has given a good 4 or 5 simple summaries of the situation , and i believe he is right

the reason i didnt "like" that post is because it is sad for us and i cant like that

while the gap between dragon and us is certainly not the madness it was in '62 - the fact remains that they are still stronger by quite a fair amount - and that in itself will be sufficient for them to push inch by inch ( metaphorically ) - which has always been their style

so i cant share the enthusiasm of the general , nor im sorry to say can i share the confidence of Ray

the few points Kunal raised - HAVE to be addressed - failing which theres a gaping hole and we leave ourselves unnecessarily vulnerable - and it simply needn't have been that way

if we just clean up the irrationality - we could actually give them the good thrashing they deserve

that's the position the russians are in - despite their huge disadvantage of manpower !!

 

[rockdog]

I think if India and China are facing a coming war within next 3-5 yrs, the situation for India would even worse than 1962, reasons:

1. At 1962, the general nation strength between India and China were almost same (maybe India was even stronger),
but if you compare the current GDP of China mainland plus Hong Kong is almost 5 times than Indian; and for the industry output even much higher, if we considering India's 70% GDP comes from service sectors which can't transferred to be industry capability easily.

2. Geographic advantage: Generally speaking, New Delhi is 300km something away from the frontier, but Beijing is 3000km...

In 1962 because of the weakness after "1959-1962 great leap forward" and the riot of Tibet 1959; PLA was almost with very poor logistics and backend support from inland China, and can't launch any long range attack.

Now let's assume a 300km-500km short range of missile or aircraft would attack your most important city New Delhi, but from India you might need 1500km-2000km weapon to hit our important west city like Chengdu (which is still not that important to China's political and industry core capability). If you considering the cost ratio between 300km to 1500km weapon, China no doubt has better sustainability.

3. Infrastructure: The military action now powered by Qinghai-Tibet railway system, and also the road system along the borders, which are better built than India side.


Generally, in fact after 1962 the gap between India & China on military and nation strength is getting bigger... Sad but true to my Indian friends...

 

[EzioAltaïr]

I think if India and China are facing a coming war within next 3-5 yrs, the situation for India would even worse than 1962, reasons:

1. At 1962, the general nation strength between India and China were almost same (maybe India was even stronger),
but if you compare the current GDP of China mainland plus Hong Kong is almost 5 times than Indian; and for the industry output even much higher, if we considering India's 70% GDP comes from service sectors which can't transferred to be industry capability easily.

2. Geographic advantage: Generally speaking, New Delhi is 300km something away from the frontier, but Beijing is 3000km...

In 1962 because of the weakness after "1959-1962 great leap forward" and the riot of Tibet 1959; PLA was almost with very poor logistics and backend support from inland China, and can't launch any long range attack.

Now let's assume a 300km-500km short range of missile or aircraft would attack your most important city New Delhi, but from India you might need 1500km-2000km weapon to hit our important west city like Chengdu (which is still not that important to China's political and industry core capability). If you considering the cost ratio between 300km to 1500km weapon, China no doubt has better sustainability.

3. Infrastructure: The military action now powered by Qinghai-Tibet railway system, and also the road system along the borders, which are better built than India side.


Generally, in fact after 1962 the gap between India & China on military and nation strength is getting bigger... Sad but true to my Indian friends...

1. I'm not an expert on economics, so I won't argue with that.

2. India had terrible disadvantages in 1962 as well, including a tiny army compared to China, sub-standard weaponry, etc. The point about distance makes no sense. India possesses the Agni V which can strike Beijing with a launcher on Wheeler Island.

 

[Ripples]

Mr.Bikram Singh is free to believe whatever he wants but as far as the reality is concerned china can very well do another 62 on India & may be even worse this time. I can understand that Mr.Singh was talking to the gallery playing a politician but could not resist myself from making a point. The debacle of 62 was mostly a fall out of political gutlessness,poor national strategy, utter complacency, which we have managed to repeat even after 62 against a much weaker opponent like Pakistan, where as this gentleman wants us to believe that this time we will somehow not make a mess. LOL!Several times GOI has forced Indian Army to come out in the open and speak about their weaknesses so as to dissuade the pro war group prevalent in India. It looks as if GOI was ready with INSAS in hand its just that Indian armed forces sick state of preparation held them back. A nation that spends 30 billion $ yearly on defense was never ready for a short and intense battle against a rogue state that barely manage 5 billion $ a year for last 10 years. If we were to believe what Mr.Singh is saying then what happened in 2008 ? Well now we have to believe that though we were not ready to take on Pak in 2008 we are ready to face china at present. Hmmm then i will believe it. After all I am a naive Indian.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

GDP is not related at all, there is no lack of money..

Distance is not a concern but the terrain that is the geography people talking here..

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Good point..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thread is not about China and never was..

It is about ourselves which indicate lots and lots of Work and lesser talk..

 

[trackwhack]

Ohh ... got it..

 

[EzioAltaïr]

For one, the army needs to stop mentioning China in every single speech/media report/whatever else they mention China in. And they need to really improve a lot. I think for starters they should stop using Pakistan as a benchmarks, as that is causing them to think like, "If Pakistan can't do this, why do we need to do this?".

 

[LETHALFORCE]

This is a disgrace to spend over a 100 billion on defense in last few years and come to
hear statements like this and still feel we are unprepared. I will take a more optimistic view:

Artillery :
Pinaka ready Pinaka 2 arriving
Smerch missiles being manufactured in India
Howitzers bought from USA
Bofors being manufactured in India
Prahaar

Training:
US special forces and India special forces and
Mountain divisions have been training together for atleast last 5 years
Siachen experience
2 new mountain divisions

Air defense:

AWACS
Indigenous AWACS being built
AKASH ready
Maitri
Radars acquired and developed
SPYDER
VSHORAD

Transport:

C-17 bought from USA can land almost any terrain transport
Thousands of troops and armored divisions in a hurry

Airfields :
2 new airfield being developed for Sukhois
1 airfield reopened in Ladakh
Attack Helicopters acquired and indigenous

Missiles :
Agni 's already in tunnels near Chinese border
other cruise missiles/IRBM possibly also?

Lack of strategy

Any war will give an opportunity to thrust inside Tibet or open another
front with this view.

Mobilization

Put Cold start into action
Operation Parakram practiced for rapid fast and hard strikes
in the northeast

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Artillery :
Pinaka ready Pinaka 2 arriving
Smerch missiles being manufactured in India
Howitzers bought from USA
Bofors being manufactured in India
Prahaar

There is no doubt about the effectiveness of these system..

But one also should check what are there numbers compare to the force deplyed also Do they fit the terrain ?

Airfields :
2 new airfield being developed for Sukhois
1 airfield reopened in Ladakh
Attack Helicopters acquired and indigenous

There are plenty of Airbases, But what are there status of modernization ?
Do they have Enough AD to protect themselves from air raid or cruise missile raid ?
What about early warning radars ? are these available to most bases ?

There are vintage MI-35 which are just 30 or so for both fronts..

Lack of strategy

Any war will give an opportunity to thrust inside Tibet or open another
front with this view.

Mobilization

Put Cold start into action
Operation Parakram practiced for rapid fast and hard strikes
in the northeast

One need a plan when attacked ? should they stand and fight or counter attack if so how deep ?

One should know the basics ideas about some plan to commence orders..

And about mobilizations, We are just started to allocate budgets needless to say we are left far behind, Unlike Chinese are prepared for both road and off-road..