11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

Singh

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So it clearly proves my point of view.
Confirmation Bias.

===
Timid soldiers refusing to fight that too from SikhLI.
Maybe you have not read the story, in your haste to put down the Sikhs.

You claim SIKH LI soldiers refused to fight and ergo are timid; when the story (and the headlines) explicitly say NCOs and COs clashed ?
Are you suggesting they were doing Air Battles ?

Circular Logic much.

And if you do hold the refusal of a NCO to fight against a CO, as proof of timidness of a people; then you are applying circular logic, because there was an ensuring brawl.

In short you are wrong, so wrong.

====
I always knew that Sikhs of India are overblown fighters.
You always knew, implies you have held this belief for a very long time, and just needed an incident to confirm it. (Confirmation Bias).



====
Good for nothing except self killings.
What do you mean by the term self killings ? Suicide, fratricide ?


===
Good for ceremonial duties and and best for licking the backsides of Goraas.
Hope more Goris know about her backside liking skills. I would love to start with Candice Swanepoel.

Jokes aside, this is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Most won't subscribe to it.

===
In Delhi, Tis Hazaazi is named after the 30k sikh soldiers who were posted to Delhi by third rate sikh kings of Punjab to support British in keeping India under British rule.
Sir, I am afraid you just shot yourself in the foot...

"In February 1764, a body of 30,000 Sikhs under the command of Baghel Singh (Named Tes Hazari after his attack) and other leading warriors crossed the Yamuna and captured Saharanpur. They overran the territory of Najib ud-Daulah, the Ruhila chief, acquiring from him a tribute of eleven lakh of rupees (INR 1,100,000). In April 1775, Baghel Singh with two other sardars (Rai Singh Bhangi and Tara Singh Ghaiba) crossed the Yamuna to occupy that country, which was then ruled by Zabita Khan, who was the son and successor of Najib ud-Daulah. Zabita Khan in desperation offered Baghel Singh large sums of money and proposed an alliance to jointly plunder the crown lands. Sardar Baghel Singh set up an octroi-post near Sabzi Mandi to collect the tax on the goods imported into the city to finance the search and the construction of the Sikh Temples. (He did not want to use the cash received from the Government Treasury for this purpose, and most of that was handed out to the needy and poor. He often distributed sweetmeats bought out of this government gift to the congregationalists at the place which is now known as the Pul Mithai.) In March 1776, they defeated the imperial forces of Mughal emperor, Shah Alam II near Muzaffarnagar. The whole of the Yamuna Gangetic Doab was now at their mercy.
On 11 March 1783, when the Sikhs entered the Red Fort in Delhi and occupied the Diwani-Am, the Mughal emperor Shah Alam II made a settlement with them agreeing to allow Baghel Singh to raise gurdwaras on Sikh historical sites in the city and receive six annas in a rupee (37.5%) of all the octroi duties in the capital. Baghel Singh stayed in Sabzi Mandi with 4000 troops and took charge of the police station in Chandni Chowk. He located seven sites connected with the lives of the Gurus and had shrines raised thereon within the space of eight months, from April to November 1783. Gurdwara Sis Ganj marked the spot in the main Mughal street of Chandni Chowk where Guru Tegh Bahadur had been executed under the fiat of the emperor and Gurdwara Rakab Ganj Sahib, near modern day Parliament House, where the body was cremated. Bangla Sahib and Bala Sahib commemorated the Eighth Guru, Guru Har Krishan. Three other gurdwaras were built at Majnu ka Tilla, Moti Bagh, and Telivara."


What is more epic than this ?

They whooped Mughal King, and taxed him, and then made him destroy mosques standing over historic Sikh grounds, and built Gurudwaras instead.

And there were no Sikh "Kings" at the time, there were Misldars. It was Ranjit Singh of Sukerchakia Misl who unified them under his command and started the Khalsa Raj.

Khalsaraj fought against the British till the last (Dogra treachery did them in).

Crown raj came to India in 1858. You have conflated timelines.

=====
Do you know why 1857 failed? Sikhs gave shelter to english under Maharaja of Patiala and who supported them. The englishmen were given shelter by that bastard who even took out guns from sutlej river and gave them to british to defeat the nationalists.

I absolutely support the role of Sikhs, Dogras, Gurkhas, Pathans etc. in putting down the 1857 revolt. It was a last ditch attempt by Mughal "backside lickers" to assert an Islamic Rule.

No Sikh would've agree to fight under the Mughal Flag and I fully endorse their role in putting down this revolution.
 

The Messiah

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Confirmation Bias.

===


Maybe you have not read the story, in your haste to put down the Sikhs.

You claim SIKH LI soldiers refused to fight and ergo are timid; when the story (and the headlines) explicitly say NCOs and COs clashed ?
Are you suggesting they were doing Air Battles ?

Circular Logic much.

And if you do hold the refusal of a NCO to fight against a CO, as proof of timidness of a people; then you are applying circular logic, because there was an ensuring brawl.

In short you are wrong, so wrong.

====


You always knew, implies you have held this belief for a very long time, and just needed an incident to confirm it. (Confirmation Bias).



====


What do you mean by the term self killings ? Suicide, fratricide ?


===


Hope more Goris know about her backside liking skills. I would love to start with Candice Swanepoel.

Jokes aside, this is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Most won't subscribe to it.

===


Sir, I am afraid you just shot yourself in the foot...

"In February 1764, a body of 30,000 Sikhs under the command of Baghel Singh (Named Tes Hazari after his attack) and other leading warriors crossed the Yamuna and captured Saharanpur. They overran the territory of Najib ud-Daulah, the Ruhila chief, acquiring from him a tribute of eleven lakh of rupees (INR 1,100,000). In April 1775, Baghel Singh with two other sardars (Rai Singh Bhangi and Tara Singh Ghaiba) crossed the Yamuna to occupy that country, which was then ruled by Zabita Khan, who was the son and successor of Najib ud-Daulah. Zabita Khan in desperation offered Baghel Singh large sums of money and proposed an alliance to jointly plunder the crown lands. Sardar Baghel Singh set up an octroi-post near Sabzi Mandi to collect the tax on the goods imported into the city to finance the search and the construction of the Sikh Temples. (He did not want to use the cash received from the Government Treasury for this purpose, and most of that was handed out to the needy and poor. He often distributed sweetmeats bought out of this government gift to the congregationalists at the place which is now known as the Pul Mithai.) In March 1776, they defeated the imperial forces of Mughal emperor, Shah Alam II near Muzaffarnagar. The whole of the Yamuna Gangetic Doab was now at their mercy.
On 11 March 1783, when the Sikhs entered the Red Fort in Delhi and occupied the Diwani-Am, the Mughal emperor Shah Alam II made a settlement with them agreeing to allow Baghel Singh to raise gurdwaras on Sikh historical sites in the city and receive six annas in a rupee (37.5%) of all the octroi duties in the capital. Baghel Singh stayed in Sabzi Mandi with 4000 troops and took charge of the police station in Chandni Chowk. He located seven sites connected with the lives of the Gurus and had shrines raised thereon within the space of eight months, from April to November 1783. Gurdwara Sis Ganj marked the spot in the main Mughal street of Chandni Chowk where Guru Tegh Bahadur had been executed under the fiat of the emperor and Gurdwara Rakab Ganj Sahib, near modern day Parliament House, where the body was cremated. Bangla Sahib and Bala Sahib commemorated the Eighth Guru, Guru Har Krishan. Three other gurdwaras were built at Majnu ka Tilla, Moti Bagh, and Telivara."


What is more epic than this ?

They whooped Mughal King, and taxed him, and then made him destroy mosques standing over historic Sikh grounds, and built Gurudwaras instead.

And there were no Sikh "Kings" at the time, there were Misldars. It was Ranjit Singh of Sukerchakia Misl who unified them under his command and started the Khalsa Raj.

Khalsaraj fought against the British till the last (Dogra treachery did them in).

Crown raj came to India in 1858. You have conflated timelines.

=====



I absolutely support the role of Sikhs, Dogras, Gurkhas, Pathans etc. in putting down the 1857 revolt. It was a last ditch attempt by Mughal "backside lickers" to assert an Islamic Rule.

No Sikh would've agree to fight under the Mughal Flag and I fully endorse their role in putting down this revolution.
So you are supporting the british on 1857 ?

:toilet:
 

pmaitra

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I absolutely support the role of Sikhs, Dogras, Gurkhas, Pathans etc. in putting down the 1857 revolt. It was a last ditch attempt by Mughal "backside lickers" to assert an Islamic Rule.

No Sikh would've agree to fight under the Mughal Flag and I fully endorse their role in putting down this revolution.
Fully agree with the rest of the post, except this part. From what I see, the Mughal rule would have been a titular one anyway, and giving the British a bloody nose, despite eventually not succeeding, was a rather desirable outcome of the revolt.
 

The Messiah

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Fully agree with the rest of the post, except this part. From what I see, the Mughal rule would have been a titular one anyway, and giving the British a bloody nose, despite eventually not succeeding, was a rather desirable outcome of the revolt.
I bet the titular rule wouldn't have lasted anyways if 1857 was successful and would have been replaced by some Indian dynasty.
 

civfanatic

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Khalsaraj fought against the British till the last (Dogra treachery did them in).
I remember reading that some Dogra gave away the Sikh war plans to British during the Anglo-Sikh War.

And we have some people here claiming Dogras were glorious, 10-foot tall fair-skinned superheroes who defeated the Chinese Empire. :rolleyes:
 

PredictablyMalicious

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sikhs are funny to laugh at. Not much else to say about them.
 

DivineHeretic

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sikhs are funny to laugh at. Not much else to say about them.
Why do you even bother to enter discussions?

Just in case your extended stay has not enlightened you, I shall spend a few precious moments changing the fuse of your enlightenment bulb.

(Ya, I know, I am going to miss these few minutes of my life......The moments lost for eternity)

You see, you are not meant for political discussions. And most definitely you should stay away from intellectual ones.

As far as technical ones are concerned. You presence or the lack of it is of no concern to anyone. You actually need to be at least a teenager in ur head to attempt to understand technical terms...

Your brain is best utilized in debating whether a particular style is gay or lesbian or you know....
Then comes your skills in debating whether Indians are whacko, which I should add, you make a fine specimen in support of your argument.

No need to thank me, just make sure the enlightenment reaches the inner parts of your cobweb filled head
 

pkroyal

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Read my post" pinkoo halwai" in chit chat thread for the machinations, to acquire a flat in adarsh society. Many of our top generals have acquired full blown mannerisms and jargon of petty traders.
 

Ray

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Good reference about HH Jaipur, does it mean all Brig,s who hang their boots have his integrity.
Ant,s eye view etc, and yours again a lofty, preachy one. What earth shattering experience is required to air corrupt practices, by seniors or juniors alike. It takes immense guts and courage to swim against the tide and yet maintain a steady course. I recall two stone age CO,s 0ne 1965 commissioned and the other 1968, who had such double standards of sucking up to their seniors, for eg, scotch for the Cdr /GOC from offrs mess fund when they were invited for a unit party and rot gut cheap Indian whisky for other guests who did not matter as IO/ RO. I am told this is the practice which has percolated to modern day times as well. Good example of " atithi devo bhavah"(all guests are like God).[ this is what youngsters were taught, " one must know which side of the bread to butter up".
The issue is Young Generation and Older Generation.

HH proves it.

There are many who retired gracefully when their time came, even when superseded.

How many Stats, Non Stats and Court Cases did you see before 1962 and how many do you see after that? And now what is the situation that is making it look so bad that they have had to have a Tribunal to resolve cases before they came to the Court?!

The reason is not hard to find. After 1962, the attitude changed. High morality and the strength of character gave way to the 'world ways' to what the highbrow Punjabis of Old Delhi called the "Lajpat Nagar culture", i.e anything does so long it meets one's aim and desire!

Emergency Commission brought in all sorts of people to become officers. People, who were already employed, but in lowly paid jobs, found the Army officer's rank a God given chance to improve the status and give a new meaning to life. Many were of the clerk and petty officials in the Govt status and equivalent (like bank clerks). They were savvy about the 'ways' of life in the Civvy Street, double dealing, bribes and immorality of all kind.

They were also aware that since they were older in age, their prospects to rise were limited to the extent age restrictions permitted. And so it laid the foundations to the morass that we notice these days to include misplaced ambitions, stats, non stats, graft, skulduggery, diluting of norms and so on.

The foundation for double standards (that you talk about) lies at the doorstep of post 1962, where those who knew that they had very little scope to rise because of age, used all forms 'out of the book' to ensure that they rise to the highest rank that age permitted them, so that their relatives and friends would acknowledge that a clerk had done well in life and had acquitted the 'respectability' to be called an 'Officer Sahab'.

What was the rpercussion that had an adverse effect of these type of "Officer Sahabs"?

Their juniors, irrespective of their Entries, realised that this wheeling dealing immorality was the name of the game!

And so the rot got further and further to the morass that we see today!

Now on to supersession.

What is so bad of supersession?

Except for the COAS, all are superseded, if you come to think of it.

The only thing that supersession causes to people is the initial shock and a bruised ego that one was not found 'fit' for those limited vacancies for promotion. Everyone thinks he is a tees mar Khan and so one feels he has been deprived. Your bile against the Army is a case in point.

To some extent, indeed there will be those who don't deserve the promotion, piping one to the post; but then, let us have the grace to accept that they were the ones who learnt early to 'manipulate' the system and there are many like that, while those who had some character, spine and morality didn't and so lost out.

If the system is foul, what has one done to cleanse it? I tried.

Gen Rodrigues told me that - you can't change the system, the organisation, weaponry or tactics. But what you can is change it under your command. Golden words and that is what I did, or tried to do.

Back to supercession.

What's so bad? And why should one complain, grouse or give a hint by taking the moral high ground?

Even if one is superseded, one has to have moral fibre, character and dedication to the Service and his men and command, to soldier on and not throw in the towel as a 'loser'.

Or appear, to his command, men and the Army as a 'fair weather' officer, who served so long as all went well for him and groused when things went wrong!

But human being, being human beings, is diverse in attitude. Some who realise they have entered a cul de sac, see fresher pastures elsewhere. Nothing wrong there, either!

BTW, it does not take immense guts and courage to swim against the tide.

What it requires is morality and moral courage and the readiness, and the grace, to accept the consequence and be a MAN and take it smiling.

One cannot have misplaced ambition on the one hand, and then 'play the game' of sycophancy till your 'luck' runs out and then take the moral high ground!

Or in other words, Have your Cake and Eat it too!


You have the penchant to generalise and claim it as the rule.

What make you feel that all COs have to offer Scotch to senior officers? Yes, some do. But then, there are many others, who don't.

Do see Post #68 of http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...m-mouthorgan-other-indian-army-stories-5.html

Indeed, to be a gentleman and officer is very, very, difficult and I concede that in today's environment it is difficult if one want to rise by 'hook or by crook'!

And I concede it is difficult to explain to people who want to have their cake and eat it too. It does appear 'preachy' to them.

If one has to stand on his principles and morality, then one must be ready to buck the system and face the consequence as a MAN. I assure you he will have a good night sleep.

A person, who is morally spineless and corrupt, even if he reaches the zenith of his professional career, has nowhere to hide. Ask that scoundrel and a total disgrace to the uniform, Deepak Kapoor, who rode high thanks to Saint Anthony when his corrupt ways was discovered by Lt Gen Panag, latter was shunted out because of that.

Politics is the bane of the IA these days!
 
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Ray

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Gentlemen,

It is futile to claim that any unit is brave or not so brave based on history.

Today, given the creature comfort, all are what they are.

Few bank on their history or family pride (there is no family as such since all are nuclear and self seeking).

In those days, colourfully put as angootha chhap by someone of the Gen X generation, there was something that rallied people - Nanak, Naam, Nishan, family pride, community pride, being of the 'martial' race etc

Today, the mantra is Self.
 
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pkroyal

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The issue is Young generation and Older Generation.

HH proves it.

There are many who retired gracefully when their time came, even when superseded.

How many Stats, Non Stats and Court Cases did you see before 1962 and how many do you see after that and now the situation is so bad that they have had to have a Tribunal!

The reason is not hard to find that after 1962, the attitude changed.

Emergency Commission brought in all sorts of people to become officers. People, who were already employed, but in lowly paid jobs, who found the Army officer's rank a God given chance to improve the status and give a new meaning to life. Many were of the clerk and petty officials in the Govt status and equivalent (like bank clerks). They were savvy about the 'ways' of life in the civvy street. They were also aware that since they were older in age, their prospects to rise were limited to the extent age restrictions permitted. And so it laid the foundations to the the morass that we notice these days to include misplaced ambitions, stats, non stats, graft, skulduggery, diluting of norms and so on.

The foundation for double standards lies at the doorstep of post 1962, where those who knew that they had very little scope to rise because of age, used all forms out of the book to ensure that they rise to the rank that age permitted them. Their juniors realised that this was the name of the game!


What is so bad of supersession?

Except for the COAS, all are superseded, if you come to think of it.

The only thing that supersession causes to people is the initial shock and a bruised ego that one was not found 'fit' for those limited vacancies for promotion. Everyone thinks he is a tees mar Khan and so one feels he has been deprived. To some extent, indeed there will be those, who don't deserve the promotion pipping one to the post, but then, they were the the ones who learnt early to 'manipulate' the system and there are many like that.

However, one has to have moral fibre character and dedication to the Service, to soldier on and not throw in the towel as a 'loser', who served so long as all went well for him and groused when things went wrong!

But human being being human beings, are diverse in attitude. Some who realise they have entered a cul de sac, see fresher pastures elsewhere.

BTW, It does not take immense guts and courage to swim against the tide.

What it requires is morality and moral courage and the readiness and grace to accept the consequence and be a MAN.

You cannot have misplaced ambition on the one hand. and then 'play the game' of sycophancy, till your 'luck' runs out and then take the moral high ground!

Or in other words, Have your Cake and Eat it too!


You have the penchant to generalise and claim it as the rule.

What make you feel that all COs have to offer Scotch to senior officers? Yes, some do. But then, there are many others, who don't.

Do see Post #68 of http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...m-mouthorgan-other-indian-army-stories-5.html

Indeed, to be a gentleman and officer is very, very, difficult and I concede that in today's environment, and it is difficult to explain to people who want to have their cake and eat it too, it does appear 'preachy' to them.

If one stand on his principles and morality, then one must be ready to buck the system and face the consequence as a MAN. I assure you he will have a good night sleep.

A person, who is morally spineless and corrupt, even if he reaches the zenith of his professional career, has nowhere to hide. Ask that scoundrel and a total disgrace to the uniform, Deepak Kapoor, who rode high thanks to Saint Anthony when his corrupt ways was discovered by Lt Gen Panag, who was shunted out because of that.

Politics is the bane of the IA these days!
Thanks, I again need to reinforce nothing about myself, but you have said what many wanted to read / hear.
I sleep well ,thank you !!! By the way HH ,jaipur took PMR after 1971 war, ie in 1974 after having served for 23 years ( 1951-74) he was given the rank of Brig as an honour by the president of India much later in 1987.When the Indian Army was in action in Sri Lanka under "Operation Pawan", at the request of the then President and Prime Minister, Sawai Bhawani Singh had to go to Sri Lanka and boost the morale of his old unit (10 Para). He was successful in boosting the morale of the unit and for this success, the President of India bestowed upon him the rank of Brigadier for life. This is a very rare occasion, when a retired Army officer has been given a promotion in rank. Besides, Brig. Sawai Bhawani Singh had also served as the first Resident High Commissioner to the State of Brunei from July 1993 to January 1997
 
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Ray

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I sleep well too.

And proudly visit my units even now because they realise that even if I was not great, I was honest, and just and I cared for them

Most don't know me and all they know are stories, some are close to the truth and some are sheer fiction!

They laugh at me when I tell them it is fiction!

But it sure makes me feel that my work on Earth has found some meaning and I have not let down my Nation, units or my Regiment!

Naam , Namak, Nishan!

Jai Hind!
 

mikhail

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sikhs are funny to laugh at. Not much else to say about them.
hey mate why this utter discriminatory talk against the Sikhs!afaik,they are one of the finest warriors in the history of the Indian sub-continent and they were the ones who not only defeated but also utterly humiliated the pathan tribes of Afganistan.they thrashed the muslim rulers everytime they got the opportunity.since i have many Sikh friends here in W.B. i can only tell you from the things that i have observed over the years that they are an honest and hard working race who don't usually poke their noses into others' internal matters.now before you come after me with all your guns blazing i wanna let you know that i am not a Sikh neither am i a Punjabi....
 

Ray

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sikhs are funny to laugh at. Not much else to say about them.
If you dispassionately and honestly analyse, then all communities of India are funny to laugh at. Not much else to say about them

I know many Sikhs who have had great moral fibre, character etc and whom I respect.

Maybe you met the wrong lot!
 
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Ray

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Boxing is a game but a very funny game which tests the ultimate ability of a man. It is a game in which you break faces and get your face broken for sport. This does not have doubles. It is just you vs other. You have to keep your cool and mind in place while being hit to be killed or knocked out. AND you have to remember & plan your moves under such a situation to counter attack your opponent. Your legs, arms and brain is under extreme strain during boxing.

Lt. Tripathi of 10th Para SF who died in that ill fated assualt to capture Pirabhakaran in Jaffna in 1987/88 was from Hunter sqn NDA 68th course. He was the Boxing vice captain of NDA in fourth term itself. The best technical boxer tilldate of NDA. I was second termer. I had been boxing in Delhi in YMCA before I joined NDA and I suffered DNS(Left) as a result of the hits I got on my nose in boxing. I was given temp rejection in medicals for NDA and I had my nose operated to straighten it and cleared appeal medical in Ambala to join NDA.
When I joined NDA wing in Ghorpadi, Pune, I was forced to fight novices rounds with one of my coursemates. We had decided not to hit eachother and just play around. To our shock our PT officer who was an officer from branch commission(Soldier turned officer) understood it all and told us that if we did not fight properly, he will put on the boxing gloves and also ask the JCO Gurung ( Military medalist in Boxing national level) to do so and hammer us in the ring. My opponent got scared and he actually started hitting me hard. I asked him to cool it but he was so scared of being bashed by Gurung that he let it out on me. seeing no escape I got into my stride and with just two combinations, knocked out my opponent.
next was what??? The officer jumps into the ring with gloves on and asks me where have I done boxing and what level did I reach? I tried to fool him by stating that sir I am from civil background and have never boxed before. he hit me staright on my face. I did not respond. next he again tried and this time I dodged him. next was, If you have never boxed, why is your foot work so good?
Can you believe it he saw my footwork when I knocked out my coursemate in Novices and he came to know everything about my boxing abilities.

Anyway, I was forced to fight proper boxing bouts and a big jat sikh gentleman from PPS Nabha got it really bad from me in finals for calling me a timid brahmin who survived on the grants given by his forefathers.
In NDA, I landed up in Delta sqn or Dalda sqn as @Ray sir wud call it. We used to hang our medals on our fan blades when we entered main NDA from Ghorpadi for all seniotrs to see what we did in wing. I was straigh away in sqn boxing team and a 4th term cadet from SS kozikuttam was our boxing vice captain and Dilbagh Singh Dahiya who is now a MARCO from the second batch was our boxing captain. After the rape on boxers hill we used to return to the sqn and central lobby of the sqn was the boxing ring and everyday, we used to get beaten by sqn cadets to make us strong without the option of retaliating. We were allowed to dodge. After that used to be the fights with a higher wt cadet. NDA is the biggest mad house of the world. You don't know what you are doing? You don't have permission to ask questions why it is happenning and best is that even if you get the answers, you can't do anything about it.

I will now come back to Lt. Tripathi. Pls note that I have neither addressed him as late or martyr. Such brave men never die.
I have very strong bone structure which resulted in my weight being fixed 10% higher than the ht/wt standards of NDA. I was fit to fight in Welter wt but I used to drain my body fluids to get into lower Light welter wt which brought me in same ht category and reach ability as my opponents. I will tell you the next part shortly after a break.
Interesting.

I Would love to see your account as a story/account in the thread Rum, Bum and Mouthorgan!
 
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Decklander

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Confirmation Bias.

===


Maybe you have not read the story, in your haste to put down the Sikhs.

You claim SIKH LI soldiers refused to fight and ergo are timid; when the story (and the headlines) explicitly say NCOs and COs clashed ?
Are you suggesting they were doing Air Battles ?

Circular Logic much.

And if you do hold the refusal of a NCO to fight against a CO, as proof of timidness of a people; then you are applying circular logic, because there was an ensuring brawl.

In short you are wrong, so wrong.

====


You always knew, implies you have held this belief for a very long time, and just needed an incident to confirm it. (Confirmation Bias).



====


What do you mean by the term self killings ? Suicide, fratricide ?


===


Hope more Goris know about her backside liking skills. I would love to start with Candice Swanepoel.

Jokes aside, this is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Most won't subscribe to it.

===



Crown raj came to India in 1858. You have conflated timelines.

=====



I absolutely support the role of Sikhs, Dogras, Gurkhas, Pathans etc. in putting down the 1857 revolt. It was a last ditch attempt by Mughal "backside lickers" to assert an Islamic Rule.

No Sikh would've agree to fight under the Mughal Flag and I fully endorse their role in putting down this revolution.
When I used the phrase overblown, I meant that sikhs are just as good or as bad warriors as anyother Indian.
Sikhs killed themselves is true as before and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Sikhs were fighting among themselves. Infact rani Jindan wanted to have her control over Khalsa army and so she put her army into conflict with British who were friends with Sikhs, resulting in defeat of Sikhs and weakening the Khalsa armyand resulting in erosion of authority of Khalsa Generals who were becoming too big for Rani Jindan to handle and control. Rani Jindan was exiled to Nepal where she died in prison.

Lastly Sikhs never fought against british except for the case posted above. In 1857 they sided with British and even gave them military support to put down the rebellion. Pls name one freedon fighter from Punjab other than lala Lajpat Rai before the incident of Jalianwala Bagh.
 

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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Decklander

Sir, I have divided both of your posts, and tried to answer the various points you have raised

========
Re: being overblown fighters


So it clearly proves my point of view. Timid soldiers refusing to fight that too from SikhLI. I always knew that Sikhs of India are overblown fighters. Good for nothing except self killings. Good for ceremonial duties and and best for licking the backsides of Goraas.
When I used the phrase overblown, I meant that sikhs are just as good or as bad warriors as anyother Indian.
Sir,

You tried to insult Sikhs on a community level rather than make an argument against heuristics. This is unfortunate, esp for someone who is so proud of being a Brahmin and being well aware of the sacrifice of Guru Tegh Bahadur.

In any case, if you mean that just because a person is a Sikh, he won't automatically be a superior warrior then another, then I agree.

However, if you believe Sikhs are overblow, then so far you have not provided any satisfactory evidences, and are relying on demagoguery and playing fast and loose with the facts.

Just a small tidbit,
Khalsa Panth was formed in 1699, and within a century this persecuted community came to rule over North West India defeated Afghans/Pathans, Mughals, Muslims, Gorkhas, Tibetans, Kashmiris, Dogras/Rajputs, etc and for the first time in over a millennium a Punjabi became the ruler of Punjab. If this is not badass, I dunno what is.

============
Re: being good for nothing except Self-Killings


So it clearly proves my point of view. Timid soldiers refusing to fight that too from SikhLI. I always knew that Sikhs of India are overblown fighters. Good for nothing except self killings. Good for ceremonial duties and and best for licking the backsides of Goraas.
Sikhs killed themselves is true as before and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Sikhs were fighting among themselves.
Infact rani Jindan wanted to have her control over Khalsa army and so she put her army into conflict with British who were friends with Sikhs, resulting in defeat of Sikhs and weakening the Khalsa armyand resulting in erosion of authority of Khalsa Generals who were becoming too big for Rani Jindan to handle and control. Rani Jindan was exiled to Nepal where she died in prison.
Sikhs good for nothing but Self-Killings implies that

A. Sikhs indulge in fratricide at a level higher than other communities.

The examples you have given are

1. Sikh Killing themselves before and after Ranjit Singh.
2. Rani Jindan made Sikhs fight the British

I'll address your second example first because it is useless, fighting British doesn't tantamount to Fratricide.

In the first example, the only times the Sikhs indulged in fratricide was between ~early 1770s to late 1790s. And there is a perfectly acceptable reason for it.

The various Sikh Sardars heading the Misls (Confederacies) started filling the power vacuum in North West India. They were all trying to increase the area under their control, and were finally subdued and united under Ranjit Singh's Sukerchakia Misl which was triumphant.
All Indian Kings/Ruling Clans have then committed fratricide, and Sikhs rulers are no different.

B. Sikhs don't have a sense of Community

Any person who has interacted with the Sikh community, can hopefully testify to their sense of community / Sangat.

======

I have a feeling you mixed up Self-Killings with being Unruly/Infighting.

=========
Re: Rani Jindan

Infact rani Jindan wanted to have her control over Khalsa army and so she put her army into conflict with British who were friends with Sikhs, resulting in defeat of Sikhs and weakening the Khalsa armyand resulting in erosion of authority of Khalsa Generals who were becoming too big for Rani Jindan to handle and control. Rani Jindan was exiled to Nepal where she died in prison.
1. Rani Jindan is generally viewed positively by the Sikhs. You are forgetting the prevailing conditions, the British wars with Afghans, and annexation of Sindh, the Treacherous Dogra Brothers, and the fact that her son Maharaja Duleep Singh was a child.
2. I don't know what you intended to prove with this example ? Its not relevant. And one shouldn't generalize a community because of the conduct of a single individual, even if interpreted wrongly.

3. Ranji Jindan died in England.

"
Having kept the British at bay for decades, Ranjit's empire began to crumble with his death in 1839. Following a series of bloody succession battles, Jind emerged as regent for Duleep who was less than a year old when his father died.
Concerned about the instability (and attracted to the kingdom's fabulous wealth) Britain began preparing to take the Punjab, goading the Sikh armies into two wars that eventually led to the disappearance of an indigenous Asian empire that stretched from the Khyber Pass to Kashmir.
Jind was instrumental in organising the Sikh resistance, rallying her generals to return to battle and plotting rebellion once the British finally took over the Punjab in 1849.
To halt her influence on the young Duleep, the Punjab's new colonial masters dragged the Queen away from her son and imprisoned her. The British press began a smear campaign against the Maharani, labelling her the "Messalina of the Punjab", portraying her as a licentious seductress who was too rebellious to control.
In a final act of defiance Jind Kaur escaped her jailers dressed as a slave girl and trekked 800 miles to Nepal where she was given begrudging asylum and a place in Sikh folklore as a national hero.
She was only allowed to see her son 13 years later when he returned to Kolkata for a tiger-hunting trip. Duleep asked to bring his mother from Kolkata to England. The British Government decided the last Queen of the Punjab no longer posed a threat and gave him permission."

Revealed: the woman who terrified the British Empire - News - People - The Independent

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Re:1857

Do you know why 1857 failed? Sikhs gave shelter to english under Maharaja of Patiala and who supported them. The englishmen were given shelter by that bastard who even took out guns from sutlej river and gave them to british to defeat the nationalists.
Lastly Sikhs never fought against british except for the case posted above. In 1857 they sided with British and even gave them military support to put down the rebellion.
Lets make it clear: Mutineers of 1857 were not Nationalists.

Just a decade back they were busy helping British annex parts of India. If it weren't for grease cartridge they would've been busy helping British win other campaigns.

No Nationalists would've fought under the Islamic Flag of Mughal Empire. If any anything the 1857 mutiny, was the last straw that broke the back of Islamic and Mughal Rule of India.

And I absolutely support the Sikhs for siding with the British

1. Mutineers were fighting under the Mughal Banner. Anyone who is even mildly aware of Sikh history knows that Sikhs don't like the Mughals
2. Mutineers were the same soldiers (Purbias) who had under the British command defeated the Sikhs. This was a great opportunity to teach these Purbias a lesson.
3. British had established themselves as the dominant force in India, siding with them made sense over siding with Mughals, their natural enemies.

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Re:British Lackeys

Good for ceremonial duties and and best for licking the backsides of Goraas.
Lastly Sikhs never fought against british except for the case posted above. In 1857 they sided with British and even gave them military support to put down the rebellion.
In Delhi, Tis Hazaazi is named after the 30k sikh soldiers who were posted to Delhi by third rate sikh kings of Punjab to support British in keeping India under British rule
Pls name one freedon fighter from Punjab other than lala Lajpat Rai before the incident of Jalianwala Bagh.

You are trying to portray the Sikhs as some kind of British Lackeys,

1. I have already shown that Tis Hazari incident is associated with the decisive Sikh victory against Mughals, and has nothing to do with British, as you erroneously claimed.

2. Sikhs fought two bitter wars with the British, which they ended up losing. Please look up Anglo-Sikh wars

3. I have already explained to you why 1857 mutineers were not freedom fighters, and why the Sikhs couldn't possibly have supported them.

4. Jallianwala Bagh Massacre occurred because the British Govt was wary, which contradicts your claim.

5. Ghadr Conspiracy, and the Execution of Shaheed Sardar Kartar Singh Sarabha in 1915 for eg. Proves you wrong

Ghadar Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lahore Conspiracy Case trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kartar Singh Sarabha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6. The Sikh contribution to the Indian Independence Movement is unparalleled, esp because Sikhs made up about ~<1-2% of undivided India
 
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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So you are supporting the british on 1857 ?

:toilet:
Fully agree with the rest of the post, except this part. From what I see, the Mughal rule would have been a titular one anyway, and giving the British a bloody nose, despite eventually not succeeding, was a rather desirable outcome of the revolt.
I bet the titular rule wouldn't have lasted anyways if 1857 was successful and would have been replaced by some Indian dynasty.
I am not supporting the British on 1857, but defending the Sikh decision to support the British.

And personally, I don't view the Mutineers as "Indian Nationalists".

Please refer to my previous post addressed to DL.

==

I remember reading that some Dogra gave away the Sikh war plans to British during the Anglo-Sikh War.

And we have some people here claiming Dogras were glorious, 10-foot tall fair-skinned superheroes who defeated the Chinese Empire. :rolleyes:
He has a grouse against me, I apparently contradicted some of his claims about Dogras.

@atheisthindu
BTW please do look up where was Gulab Singh in April of 1845.
 
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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I don't brush all Punjabis with the same brush since the original citizens of Delhi, also Punjabis, look on the immigrants with disdain and label them of 'the Lajpat Nagar mentality'.
Sir,

I am not able to understand this point. I believe even @sob sir, asked for some clarification on this.

Frankly, I have only seen you use the term Lajpat Nagar and Punjabis, I guess it could be a generational thing, and I am certain that folks of @sob sir's generation nor mine are unaware of this.

===

It is only when egalitarianism, espoused by Nehru and made into a fine art by Krishna Menon, and the slow politicisation of the Army through promoting the interests of favourites like Kaul etc, did these people realise that aligning to politicians was looking at gift horse in the teeth. JJ and Kapoor are but children of this culture though they have given a new 'high' to the rot!
JJ and Kapoor are definitely individuals and their actions shouldn't be reflected on Punjabis/Sikhs in the forces, particularly when you have someone like Lt Gen Panag, a Sikh, at the other end of the spectrum.
 
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Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The culture of corruption was alien to non Punjabis, they brought it into India and they are the most corrupt as for them bribe means Dastoori-tradition.
The culture of corruption was alien to Non-Punjabis and Punjabis brought it to India. Next you will say Brahmins are the best things to have ever happened to India ?
==
DGMO is Rajiv Bhatia, another Punjabi who has done max damage to IA by doing that inquiry into TSD.
What if he was a Brahmin, what would he have done ?
 
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