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trackwhack

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

In India, a person who can criticize DRDO products is not a patriot. We become "self flagellating gentlemen."

You western fellows have some strange values.:troll:
p2p, DRDO probably deserves a lot of criticism. But they are not financed well enough to do anything more than what they have achieved. The only way to do more would have been to use the chinese approach of copying soviet era tech. that is neither beneficial nor ethical.
 

p2prada

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

There is another way. Make DRDO private owned and the goverment with army should make open contest for weapon makers so they can compete and the best design will be choose by army.

This is one of the many beautifull wonders of real capitalism. :)
DRDO will start competing with foreign and domestic companies with some of their designs. DRDO will no longer have a captive market, they will have to fight it out.

Why i said that matters, the matter is about is it thin plate or as i said a 7-8cm thick plate, Thinner Plate is lighter also on knocking ( Even by hand ) It feels different by the sound it makes, now both plates look same ( Outer & Inner ) same way they behave.. that is why i am saying its a 70-80mm plate..
The 7cm surface would be a covering or maybe provide more area for attaching fastners. Maybe a strong fulcrum to support the weight.
 
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trackwhack

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Some departments have done better than others. Why?

Not because of money. But management.

Different departments cannot have the same leadership as the more successful departments.

Since the last decade, they have never been cash strapped. Even ADA said the govt has not held back funding and they received money whenever they asked for it. My friend pointed out the same thing. Time management is nonexistent. They have the money but it is like they don't know what to do with it within a given period of time. There are long term goals, but no short term goals like in private companies. So, what should have taken a week will take months.

Why do you think there are delays with FGFA even though money has been released? The reason is HAL is late with the cockpit designs. Comes back to Time.

Another reason why some departments have done well is because they don't have the long gestation period like tanks and aircraft. Radars have a gestation period of a year or two. So, a delay of another year does not affect as much as a decade or decade and a half gestation period for Arjun or LCA. All departments deliver late, including the most successful missile department.

We say money because we start comparing to other countries, but we forget that costs here are 4 to 5 times lesser. We are the best when it comes to frugal designs, but frugal does not mean best.

Let's not take this discussion any further because we are derailing the entire thread. Take this as something to think about.
I disagree with a lot of points but like you said will not derail the current discussion.
 

trackwhack

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Re: Quality of Manpower in DRDO and other Indian Defence Organizations

p2p, everything you have stated is a leadership and/or workforce issue. When the organization is rich enough to hire the best India has to offer, this will not be an issue. Currently DRDO has to figure out what to do with the $2billion annual budget. Even considering PPP, that is seriously lame for a country which has immense gaps in its defense needs. Even considering PPP, DRDO's historical cumulative budget does not even compare with the budget allocation of a single fighter program of the US.

The departments that have done well are the ones which were of utmost strategic importance and which had the maximum capital infusion - namely the IGMP and the BMD.
 

p2prada

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Re: Quality of Manpower in DRDO and other Indian Defence Organizations

p2p, everything you have stated is a leadership and/or workforce issue. When the organization is rich enough to hire the best India has to offer, this will not be an issue. Currently DRDO has to figure out what to do with the $2billion annual budget. Even considering PPP, that is seriously lame for a country which has immense gaps in its defense needs. Even considering PPP, DRDO's historical cumulative budget does not even compare with the budget allocation of a single fighter program of the US.

The departments that have done well are the ones which were of utmost strategic importance and which had the maximum capital infusion - namely the IGMP and the BMD.
Firstly, there is no such thing as "best to offer." You never know what the person is going to offer unless the person has had experience. Therefore, all the IIT and NIT grads are useless because these guys do the small grade work. At the BE and ME level what DPSUs require is people who follow instructions, aka donkeys who obey. This is a fact for the private industry too. You are not expected to change the world at that level. So, it is not a question of the best. DRDO has a tough entrance exam and qualifications are pretty high. So, they get what they think is a trainable workforce. If you want the best workforce then there is only one drawback, communication skills.

The PhD level candidates are difficult to obtain regardless of budget because we don't have capable institutions at that level. But recently a lot of NRIs are coming back to work in DPSUs with American and European degrees. So, the long term prospect will be better than what we have today.

We cannot compare with the US because the pay alone is massive. My friend in the US is currently getting a stipend of $5500 a month as an intern aerospace engineer, it is not even a salary. At the same time a director(highest position) in DRDO gets paid $2000 a month. That apart labour costs are even higher, like a plumber in India will come to your house and take $10-20 for his work, a plumber in the US, you figure. Costs of manufacturing is also very high. So, what should cost $2Billion here, should be anywhere between 5 and 10 times in the US. Anyway we cannot compare with the US defence programs because of the generation gap in technology between us and them.

Even if DRDO is given a budget that equals the US, nothing will improve if the leadership does not improve. It does not matter if deadlines are kept or not, these guys don't have the fear of losing their jobs. We saw heads rolling in the US for the F-35 program only recently. Even if leadership at top levels of a department is good, that does not guarantee capable leadership at lower levels. Btw, Indians cannot work as a team, as though it is hereditary or something. Again blame leadership. I may only be generalizing here, but this is what I heard from three or four guys who worked in DRDO.

That $2Billion is a lot of money for DRDO. ISRO is competing with the world with a budget of $900Million - $1 Billion a year. I think it was $500Million in 2005. I am not sure if DRDO's budget counts money coming in from the Armed forces for their respective projects, maybe it is not counted.

AVIC is spending $1.5Billion on jet engines in China over 5 years. Currently GTRE has requested GoI to release $2.5Billion for the Kaveri K-10. So, the money is there.

DRDO is one of those few companies in the world which gets "free money" and still does not deliver even when working on tech based in the 70s and 80s.
 

agentperry

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Re: Quality of Manpower in DRDO and other Indian Defence Organizations

In coaching classes for gate and psu( i wont name the inst) students are threatened by saying if you dont study then you wont be able to clear even HALs paper. thats the level. even ntpc paper is difficult than HALs
 

Armand2REP

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Re: Quality of Manpower in DRDO and other Indian Defence Organizations

I wouldn't blame the underlings for their failure. That rests clearly on management.
 

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DRDO in the process of developing robotic soldiers


DRDO is in the process of developing robotic soldiers, which would take a final shape soon, a top official said here today.

These soldiers are capable of sensing and clearing mines, which would benefit and help all forces and works are going on in Bangalore and Pune units, V K Saraswat, Director General, Defence Research and Development Organisation,told reporters.

DRDO was also building a robot mule to carry heavy luggage upto 400 KG to high altitudes and more details would be available by the year end.

Since soldiers develop many physical problems,the organisation has now started working on high altitudes and carrying out research on how to mitigate these problems, he said. "We are also developing medicine for them and also working on high altitude agriculture.".

On export of Brahmos missile, Saraswat, here to inaugurate the transit facility at Bharathiar University-DRDO Centre for Life Science, said there was huge demand for the missile from other countries, including Indonesia and Malaysia. However, there was no proposal to export now, as there was need to produce them to meet India's demands,he said.

DRDO was looking for one more production centre for the missiles, which at present were being produced at Hyderabad and Thiruvanthapuram, he said.

"First time, we are now producing complex missiles in large numbers.Akash is in the production stage and a few companies like Bharat Electronics Ltd are manufacturing it. This is a very good sign. We have achieved 80 per cent self-sufficiency in missiles," Saraswat said.

It was also a good sign that about 400 industries were involved, by contributing components for the missiles.

"We are improving our self-reliance,and in self-reliance index we have reached about 55 per cent in the past 10 years."
 

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3rd Production Centre Of Brahmos In Nagpur

The DRDO is planning to setup a new production centre of the deadly Brahmos Missile in Nagpur to augment capacities for mass producing the missile in India. This is the third such facility apart from the existing two which are already manufacturing the missile in large quantities.

The DRDO is unable to cope up with the huge demand from the Indian Armed Forces which is why the DRDO is deciding to setup another manufacturing facility at Nagpur. There is a huge demand for the missile from other countries like Indonesia and Malaysia but the DRDO is not thinking of exports as of now. The DRDO wants to meet the Indian demand first.

India is already producing the Akash Missile in large numbers with adequate infrastructure in place. More than 400 industries were directly or indirectly involved in the production of the Akash Missile and never before has the country gone for such mass scale production.
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A chauhan

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Watch Discovery Channel on 7pm today, they will broadcast a special program on DRDO !!! :nod:
 

sayareakd

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DRDO chief to visit Tipu's 'rocket court' on August 14

Finally, there is some hope for the historic 'rocket court' in Srirangapatna from where the 'Tiger of Mysore', Tipu Sultan, designed and fired the world's first war rocket nearly 250 years ago catching the mighty British army off guard during the Anglo-Mysore wars in the 1790s. The Chief Controller of Defence Research and

Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr W. Selvamurthy, is expected to visit the site on August 14, study the condition of the monument and submit a detail report to the Centre on its protection. Currently, the rocket court is an eyesore threatened by encroachments and illegal activities. Speaking to Deccan Chronicle, Mr Selvamurthy said: "I am coming for a review meeting in Defence Food Research Laboratory (DFRL) on August 14 and will visit the rocket court in Srirangapatna en route to Mysore or go there on August 15. I should thank the Deccan Chronicle for bring the issue to the notice of DRDO. I will personally follow up the case on priority and ensure history is well-protected for the future generations".

The DRDO's top brass also said he has gone through the report submitted by former DRDO chief Dr Sivathanu Pillai in 2006 on the pathetic condition of the rocket court and recommendations on converting the site into a 'rocket museum'. "I have studied the report and spoken to Dr Pillai. It's unfortunate that the recommendations were not taken seriously. Former President Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam has special interest in the project. The DRDO will now take up the issue with the highest authority".

DRDO chief to visit Tipu's 'rocket court' on August 14 | Deccan Chronicle
 

Bhadra

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DRDO is not satisfied with present so that it must get involved in antiquity..... That should be the job of archaeology Deptt
 

Ray

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DRDO is not satisfied with present so that it must get involved in antiquity..... That should be the job of archaeology Deptt
You really feel so?

DRDO maybe interested to make a Museum.

After all, isn't it politically savvy to show interest in the rich heritage even if it is not work related?

Many Govt organisations indulge in it.

So, why not the DRDO?

Guns and Rocket heritage is a very interesting subjet.
 

Bhadra

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You really feel so?

DRDO maybe interested to make a Museum.

After all, isn't it politically savvy to show interest in the rich heritage even if it is not work related?

Many Govt organisations indulge in it.

So, why not the DRDO?

Guns and Rocket heritage is a very interesting subjet.
DRDO is a Govt organisation rather than a corporate house earning billions. What ever money is spent on that would be govt money and not a contribution from DRDO employees. Being funded by public money, the task goes to Archological Depptt who are supposed to be expert in this.

By the way the property belongs to Army and the Cantt Board who should get grants and maintain that .

There isa separate ministry of cultural affairs which is responsible for maintaining monuments and historical buildings. So DRDO must be eyeing a big lump sump in the name of rocketry etc..
 
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Ray

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DRDO is a Govt organisation rather than a corporate house earning billions. What ever money is spent on that would be govt money and not a contribution from DRDO employees. Being funded by public money, the task goes to Archological Depptt who are supposed to be expert in this.

By the way the property belongs to Army and the Cantt Board who should get grants and maintain that .

There isa separate ministry of cultural affairs which is responsible for maintaining monuments and historical buildings. So DRDO must be eyeing a big lump sump in the name of rocketry etc..
You are right.

No quibbles on that.

That is why Anna Hazare is on fast!
 

Bhadra

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Discovery Channel is bringing an entire series on DRDO. Be prepared and double check your DVRsss.
Rahul,
By what time will their aircraft start defending India?
When will Arjun cause a shiver in enemy Pajamas ?
IA has bad memories of Vijayanta and is stuck up with it even today. No one is ready to put at at crossings in the cities also.


Photos and Videos are No Consequences,

Unfortunately Indians need those today !!
 
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Rahul Singh

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Rahul,
By what time will their aircraft start defending India?
When will Arjun cause a shiver in enemy Pajamas ?
IA has bad memories of Vijayanta and is stuck up with it even today. No one is ready to put at at crossings in the cities also.


Photos and Videos are No Consequences,

Unfortunately Indians need those today !!
How well your high-tech industry will be, depends how well (+much) you have invested in it in past. Unfortunately our country never realized importance of high-tech R&D and whatever success you see is because of situation which is popularly referred as "Pushed against wall". Here IGMDP especially its BM segment is one perfect example. "¦"¦.Quite nonsense sounding pretext and i know it annoys many but one needs to chant it before moving on to answering questing like in quote above.

When will DRDO's aircraft start defending nation's sky and when DRDO's Arjun will start causing shiver? Answer : The day when entire country (policymakers and stakeholders) will start to stand by them.You know it sounds pretty astonishing that main user of LCA integrated its project coordinating team in the development process only six year ago, which is five years after first test flight, sixteen years after receiving first financial clearance and over eighteen years after formal go ahead. Equally astonishing is that one ex senior army officer has recently publically accused Army for changing Arjun's GSQR according what has appeared in glossy magazines. "¦"¦"¦"¦

Regarding Vijyanta's ghost haunting Arjun "¦.. Learning is all about spending time, making mistakes and correcting them. Unfortunately our armed forces don't want to be part of the painful process of overall development of country. Apperently they just want to be beholder of Malai..

You know Merkava was perfected only by Block 3 (Merkava 3) and an advanced version (as originally conceived and something to send shivers) could be developed only by Block 4. M1A1 Abrams has followed almost an entire family, Leo (present) is now great Grand daddy of what it initially was, K-2 was quick to follow K-1. You know one thing that puts them on single line is term evolution which in simpler words equals to learning from mistakes and correcting them. So, yes Arjun will send shivers when it will be allowed to further evolve, it will further evolve when it will be put to use, it will be put to use when IA will order 400-500 Arjun MK-2 and invest in the development of Arjun MK-3 (featuring powerful main gun, powerful Gas turbine engine ). Same goes with LCA or other future aircrafts. Further evolution/development of LCA is necessary to mature this jet as fighter and also the industry which in future will embark upon development of new jet namely AMCA. Even with AMCA the greatest mistake that can be made is to ask it be world beater from day 1. Nothing is world beater from day 1 but given the time one can be.

Sorry for not replying in point for point manner , I am posting since long time, hard to hold back emotions.
 
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