View Poll Results: Do we require a spy satellite

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RISAT/CARTOSAT : India's Intelligence Satellites in Orbit

  1. #31
    Moderator LETHALFORCE
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    Top Stories | Pakistan Observer Newspaper online edition


    Enemy, ‘friendly’ satellites monitor Pak nuke sites

    Akhtar Jamal

    Islamabad—At a time when Pakistan is busy fighting internal and external terrorists several foreign satellites are monitoring the region and taking images of Pakistan’s nuclear sites particularly that of near Khushab and exchanging with each others. According to an authoritative source Indian, American, Israeli and French satellites have recently been engaged clandestinely taking images of suspected nuclear sites of Pakistan in an apparent bids to re-play Nuclear Card against Pakistan. Officials here are dismayed by the moves carried out by foes and friends while ignoring the fast growing nuclear and thermo-nuclear projects being worked out in India and Israel.

    The latest sharing of satellite images on Pakistan are causing some concern here but experts have rejected a recent report released by American news sources on alleged expansion of Pakistani nuclear programme. MSNBC has recently telecast a detailed report on Pakistan’s nuclear programme while American Institute for Science and International Security is openly displaying latest images of Pakistani nuclear sites gained from foreign satellites in the region. According to Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) a comparison of commercial imagery of the second Khushab reactor from September 3, 2008 and January 30, 2009, shows that in the span of almost four months, there have been few changes to the structures and that there does not appear to be ongoing construction of any additional buildings.

    “This indicates that major construction of the buildings associated with the second Khushab reactor may have been completed,” ISIS added and claimed that satellite pictures suggested that Pakistan was preparing for construction of a third nuclear reactor there. According to experts an Indian satellite Cartostat 2-A launched recently is busy sending telemetry data of the region to Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC) SHAR, Sriharikota. While another Indian satellite equipped with multi-spectral camera onboard IMS-1 is able to send high quality imagery while the Hyper Spectral Imaging (HySI) camera onboard IMS-1 and panchromatic (PAN) camera onboard Cartosat-2A are working 24 hour to monitor the region.

    On the other hand Israeli satellite TecSAR, specially designed as reconnaissance satellite, equipped with synthetic aperture radar and launch by India on 21 January 2008 is also reportedly taking and passing pictures of Pakistan and Iranian nuclear sites. Experts say that Israeli TecSAR satellite is fitted with a large dish-like antenna to transmit and receive radar signals that can penetrate darkness and thick clouds. Meanwhile another Israeli statellite, Ofek-7, also known as Ofeq 7 serving as an earth observation satellite and launched on June 11, 2007 is also equipped with most advanced technology to provide improved imagery.

    The United States, Britain, France and Russia are also maintaining over a dozen military satellites tailored to take pictures of suspected nuclear and military sites. What is more bothering for area experts is the fact that drones quipped with latest and most advanced cameras can also supply pictures and images of sensitive areas and plants to the military leaders.

    The American Lacrosse radar imaging satellite is one of the leading sources optimized for tactical and strategic military targets partly due to a sophisticated imaging process that involves Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), making it capable of resolving images to within 1 meter. Although the resolution is not as high as the KH series, Lacrosse is an all-weather, day-night satellite and is able to detect and target large objects like ships and aircraft. Lacrosse also uses other radar emissions such as GMTI to track moving vehicles, locate field bunkers up to three meters underground and submerged submarines at periscope depth (40 to 50 feet). Satellite images of sensitive buildings or areas are also available commercially and can be bought from private satellites. For example Ikonos-2 satellite images are said to be among the best available to the public.

    They were added to photographs already being collected by military satellites and airplanes for the American National Imagery and Mapping Agency. Ikonos pictures cost buyers up to $200 per square kilometer of imagery plus an extra $3,000 for quick turnaround work. Western news media often pay as much as $500 per picture or image. Ikonos-2 has a camera on board that, when shooting black-and-white photos, can see objects on Earth as small as one meter square (three feet or one yard). The company claims, “You can count the cars in a parking lot, tell which are pickups and sedans, and tell what color they are.”

    European photo-reconnaissance planes, including France’s Mirage IV-P and Britain’s Canberra PR-9 also secures pictures and images and make available for military use. The Canberras, flying out of missile range at 50,000 feet (15,245 meters), take pictures of “unbelievable clarity” while French Mirage IV-P with ability to fly very low, hugging the nape of the earth sometimes only 100 feet (30 meters) below the pilot. It can take pictures that include sideways views into mountainsides to disclose caves hidden from cameras in aircraft flying at higher altitudes.

    There are also fears that American, Israeli and Indian drones flying in the area can also take images of desired spots or targets but for the time being the U.S. drones have restricted their flight in only designated areas. However, Israeli UAVs some linked with foreign military forces might have made bids to captures pictures of Pakistan’s sensitive areas and establishments. Few years ago Pakistan Air Force had shot down an Israeli UAV operated by Indian Air Force over Pakistani territory.

  2. #32
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    Amazing stuff. Monitoring terrorist activity 24/7 is the only way to check the infiltration and prepare for any off border attacks in the near future (it seems). Good job ISRO.

  3. #33
    Regular Member venkat
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    "Pakistan is hopeful that once India finds out the truth that Pakistan is not sponsoring terrorism inside its territories, there would be bright chances that Pakistan and India may come closer and resume Confidence Building Measures (CBMs) which may lead to the resolution of all the pending irritants including right of self determination of people of Jammu and Kashmir."

    LF! its pure bakwas !

  4. #34
    Member of The Month JANUARY 2010 enlightened1
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    Bangalore, Jan 22: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will have a central network in the next two years to process data that will help during critical operations, Chief of Air Staff P.V. Naik said Friday.

    "I am looking at a two years' time to have a net centric environment to process data in real time for combat operations and optimal performance," Naik told reporters on the margins of an air force event here.

    With technology at the core of operations, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will use optical fibre cable as a backbone for its network AFNet (Air Force Net) with the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) as the ground arm, Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), radars and electronic warfare system for data links as the base arm and satellites as a space arm.

    "AFNet will be active by June this year and IACCS will be ready in a couple of years. AWACS and radars are in place for integration with other arms for building a network centricity by 2012-13," Naik said after delivering the fourth L. M. Khatre Memorial Lecture here.

    Unfolding the vision of the air force 'requisite capability - well in time, 'adaptive organisation' and the 'right people', Naik said to achieve the capability, the IAF had a three-pronged transformation plan to preserve and maintain what it had, selectively upgrade and improve the lethality of its assets and to progress with acquisitions and replacements.

    "We need satellites, force multipliers and strategic lift capability, fourth and fifth generation fighters, latest weapons, weapons systems and sensors, network centricity and communication and trained and motivated air warriors," Naik said in his 30-minute address to serving and retired air force personnel and aerospace people from the industry.

    --IANS

  5. #35
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP
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    Only two years?? Network-centric warfare is all about bandwidth. How many digital com sats does the military have?

  6. #36
    Member of The Month JANUARY 2010 enlightened1
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    Cartosat2A & Risat 2 are already in position. Risat 1, Air force sat & navy sat are scheduled to be launched this year.

  7. #37
    DFI Technocrat p2prada
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    We don't need satellites. Europe, China and the US are going that route. We are going the underground route. We supposedly already have the largest fibre optic connections in the world. The army has a 65000km network and was used successfully under the name Project Mercury Thunder during Kargil war. The airforce already have an unknown cable network.

    This year a PSU called BSNL will start building a $2Billion OFC channel that will span another 65000km to 100000 km for communications for the armed forces. This is after the armed forces releases 45Mhz for the 3G civilian communication system.
    The Hindu Business Line : Optical fibre network for Air Force near completion

    Something about Mercury Thunder:
    ?Mercury Thunder? To Enable Real Time Battlefield Data Transfer

    A satellite overlay is expected. But all of this will be achieved in 2 years.

  8. #38
    Senior Member neo29
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    Its good news, but i feel such sensitive acquisitions or upgrades must be kept secret.

  9. #39
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP
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    You don't need satellties yet Mercury Thunder is the addition of satellites. Fibre optics isn't any good if you don't have anything transmitting to it. High speed radio and microwave is only LOS to the ground nodes so unless your troops don't plan on leaving the network area they will need a satellite uplink. Not only do satellites provide a wider coverage area but they also handle more bandwidth and less prone to environmental interference than LOS transmitters. If IAF are conducting strikes or IN is operating off the littoral it is a necessity. If troops are advancing outside the network they won't have time to lay cable and set up reciever stations. Using cellular services increases bandwidth but it is immobile and subject to surface strike, as well as network ground nodes. Having geosationary sats over your own territory will prevent them from being targetted by the PLA while any ground system can be hit by PLAAF. Once Chinese interceptors are neutralised, the sat can be moved to a new orbit to support advancing forces. That is far easier, faster, and more capable than setting up ground relays.

  10. #40
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP
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    Those are spy sats, not com sats.

  11. #41
    Respected Member kuku
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    Indian National Satellite System - Science and Technology - Sectors: National Portal of India
    Welcome To ISRO :: Satellites :: Geostationary
    Indian National Satellite System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    domain-b.com : Dedicated communication satellite for Indian Navy
    http://www.livemint.com/2009/02/1322...-Force-to.html
    Its really not that tough too google all of this, and a fiber optic network within India is a important step, the need for satellites dedicated to military is present with in a limited capacity, the Navy obviously needs one more than the other services.

  12. #42
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP
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    It really is tough when none of the links you provided say the Indian military has communication sats. If I didn't hear about Risat 1, I wouldn't know where to look. Don't give me the 'just google it' line... it is rude.

  13. #43
    DFI Technocrat p2prada
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    I understand your point. What the air force is trying to achieve is within the country itself. So, we will not be leaving our territory. We are not hegemonic, so a global level of network centricity is not being looked at in the near term.

    The Navy is looking for complete centricity in the IOR and beyond only in 2022.

    Don't understand what you are trying to convey. But I will explain nevertheless. The Fibre optic channel will connect all mil bases to the headquarters. All radars will be inter connected and the entire country's airspace will be displayed on a single screen at the headquarters. Commanders can also access this through computers at their respective bases. This increases situational awareness and increases reaction time.

    At forward operation areas we will have transmitters which will follow the Microwave network route. It means we don't need a satellite over our heads at all times.

    A satellite is definitely a good addition. But, unlike most other countries we do not have to worry a lot if our satellites are blown up.

    The network area is not dependent on satellites alone. Microwave network will provide the necessary information to commanders at all times even outside the area. Don't forget that this is mainly capturing radar information and storing it in a single location. A radar is not defined by borders. Even a battlefield radar can transfer data through UAVs into the AFNET. Currently India is on a UAV building spree.

    Also, read up on this.
    India Building A Military Satellite Reconnaissance System

    We cannot be entirely sure what kind of recce system we already have in place. It was setup in 2007. So, a comm system is not far.

    Also, this:
    Official Website of Indian Army

    This is from the Indian Army's official website.

    Actually, anything wireless is jammable. The OFC channel in 100% unjammable.

    IN is too far and cannot be discussed for a few more years. They will be the last to become fully network centric.

    But, not IAF, as I have already mentioned. Radars don't have boundaries.

    You are talking about a different aspect in NCW. Also, Army is not ready yet.

    Even satellites require ground receivers which are setup in the CP(Command Post). These posts are as vulnerable as any OFC nodes.

    Satellites need supporting ground stations that can be hit by the PLAAF. These ground stations will need to be connected by OFC too.

    If ground relays are movable, then they provide as many advantages.

    The US satellites in LEO and Polar orbits are capable of picking up cellular frequencies for ELINT operations. This is a capability any country can work for. So, a ground based OFC channel provides excellent and secure comm between the top brass as against a satellite based system.

    Also, the fact that an OFC channel is unjammable helps a lot. This means a system like the Growler will not affect our air defence capability. A bunch of Growlers jams the entire communication bandwidth over a large area without compromising itself(awesome beast). I bet satellite comm is neutralized too. In this situation the OFC will be a blessing. Targets can be relayed back to headquarters without the fear of losing communications in that area.

  14. #44
    CHINI EXPERT Armand2REP
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    Trying to convey the necessity of ComSats in a fluid modern war.

    Certainly a nice addition for an IADs, but it is still limited to line of sight to the network. It makes it hard for your AWACs and fighters operating outside LOS to transmit to the system. For example, if MKIs are conducting CAP on the
    LoC and end up in pursuit of intruders, command will lose contact. If you plan on strikes into enemy territory, again the signal will be lost.

    A radar is defined by its LOS, without ComSats, UAVs are defined by their LOS. You can't operate UAVs long distances without a satallite uplink. They can only transfer what they see as long as they are near the ground node or a relay platform to get it there. If you want to develop more capable UAVs, ComSats are a must.


    Spy sats are nice, but it doesn't increase bandwidth. Glad to see IA is using com satellites but using foreign and domestic commercial assets aren't the answer for a war.

    OFC is also immobile. I just had the funny picture in my head of Bhishma hauling FC cable down the battlefield, or MKI flown like a kite.


    Of course radars have boundaries, especially fixed ones.


    Thats the aspect I have been talking about all along. You said India didn't need it.

    Satellite stations can be placed far from the front lines, ground nodes hooked up to the OFC cannot if they want to recieve the LOS transmission.

    PLAAF doesn't have the reach to hit a sat reciever backed thousands of kilometres from the nearest Chinese airbase. Ground nodes for the OFC will be LOS from the combat area, easy targets for PLAAF frontal aviation.

    Certainly, but they also have less bandwidth, less transmission distance, larger logistics footprints, more environmental interference, more chains to weaken the signal and take longer to set up. That is for yesterdays war. Satellites and air relays are now and the future.

    Did I ever give the impression OFCs weren't important?

    If Growlers come knocking on your door, they will launch JASSMs at your ground nodes first. Your command centres will be getting nothing but static by the time the Growlers come. EA-18Gs use INCAN for communication jamming which is only in the UHF band. Military SatComs operate in the EHF. That would be another reason to get the ComSats.

  15. #45
    DFI TEAM Rage
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    Plenty of recon satellites, but no dedicated military communication satellite yet. But that shouldn't be too difficult to remedy. INSAT has been described as the "largest domestic communication satellite system in the Asia-Pacific", after all.


    ...Although, adequate bandwith may be a problem. Despite having what has been called Asia-Pacific's "largest domestic communication satellite system", commercial service and cable operators in India warned of a shortfall in bandwidth in 2007, which would have adversely affected commercial services had the Government decided to allocate extra additional bandwith to terrestrial wireless service, Wimax, and be insufficient to sustain India’s growth.

    Wrt the Navy, apparently, the speed of achieving "network-centricity" is based on (what I consider are currently speculative) news reports of the 'footprint' of the Navy's new com sat: deemed to have a 600-1,000 nautical mile range over the Indian Ocean, which would, in turn, allow the Navy to network all of its warships, submarines and aircraft with onshore operational centers. The satellite is only the first step in setting up the 'Sea Force', which is part of the Network Centric Operations (NCO) program for the Indian Navy, under which most of its assets at sea will be networked through this and other future dedicated satellites. The Network Centric Operations system, itself is being developed by the Indian Navy at a cost of around $1 billion. It will, ofcourse, also include the following- most of the groundwork for which has already been laid:

    (1) An Interface unit, capable of receiving data from combat management systems on warships and submarines, through platform on-board radar and sonar systems.

    (2) A Track Fusion Unit, generating fused tracks from inputs from CMS's and other information sources, and which will provide the navy with a Network Tactical Situation Picture.

    (3) Data Link Units to provide seamless communication channels through V/UHF, SATCOM systems.

    (4) And an NCO Core to carry out threat evaluation, mission planning and execute both defensive and offensive missions.

    But the Indian Navy also ultimately wants to link even the long range missiles, radars, air defence systems on all sea-based assets to a central control room, which will take another six to seven years. It is only then, that they will have achieved true "Network Centric" capability.

    Upto now, we've been relying on the 1-meter resolution Technology Experiment Satellite (TES) launched in 2001 for military purposes. Once the dedicated satellite comes up and the Armed services network their assets through it, the exchange of surface and air-operational pictures in real-time will become possible.

    However, as with the Navy, the IAF in all likelihood, also plans to achieve something similar. In which case, it will probably take longer than aforementioned to achieve true "network centricity".

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