Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

MAYURA

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ou sure of it ?Ancient History is full of ccount of Yavanas marrying Brahmins and all sultry stuff.Even if Indian accounts do not mention the greek accounts mention it such peripelus of the eritrean sea etc,etc
joseph goebbels had a very unique habit that is of making assertion and then not proving it.

you are on same wavelength and let me prove it how.

1. The outsider accounts like greek and arab texts are zero value as regards social origin ( megasthenes tells us that hercules had come into south india and pandya kingdom had claimed descent from him which is pure nonsense as we have enough pandyan literature, coins and epigraphy and we get only one claim

descent from pandavas not from some greek) so they are useful only on material and trade related stuff.

In Japan of 13th century, no animal was eaten including cows but Marco Polo saw cannibalism there.

2. There might be some degraded brahmin as per that time standards but to think of any marriage with greeks is nonsense.

3. you have not shown how the greek book tells us about marriage with brahmins and in which part.


4. The name of the book is " periplus of the erithrean sea " with erithrean being the term for arabian sea, persian gulf and somali coastal sea.

eritrean sea is in balkans which shows that you have zero idea of what you are rambling.
 

parijataka

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@Singh - 500 years ago in Goa Brahmins were converted to Christianity by throwing beef into their wells, this was the only way Brahmins and Portuguese blood could inter mingle I.e. by Brahmins becoming Christians.

It is obvious you have no idea about Hindu society, also Mr Mitra who is a deracinated Bengali communist and IamAnIdiot who is a Brahmin hater. G'night.
 
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pmaitra

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You sure of it ?Ancient History is full of ccount of Yavanas marrying Brahmins and all sultry stuff.Even if Indian accounts do not mention the greek accounts mention it such peripelus of the eritrean sea etc,etc


You are thinking too much about the bious purity of brahmins PArijataka which is no way completely true in history


joseph goebbels had a very unique habit that is of making assertion and then not proving it.

you are on same wavelength and let me prove it how.

1. The outsider accounts like greek and arab texts are zero value as regards social origin ( megasthenes tells us that hercules had come into south india and pandya kingdom had claimed descent from him which is pure nonsense as we have enough pandyan literature, coins and epigraphy and we get only one claim

descent from pandavas not from some greek) so they are useful only on material and trade related stuff.

In Japan of 13th century, no animal was eaten including cows but Marco Polo saw cannibalism there.

2. There might be some degraded brahmin as per that time standards but to think of any marriage with greeks is nonsense.

3. you have not shown how the greek book tells us about marriage with brahmins and in which part.


4. The name of the book is " periplus of the erithrean sea " with erithrean being the term for arabian sea, persian gulf and somali coastal sea.

eritrean sea is in balkans which shows that you have zero idea of what you are rambling.
@Iamanidiot probably did not spell it correctly. Erythraean Sea here refers to the Red Sea, and has nothing to do with the Balkans. Please read more about Periplus of the Erythraean Sea.

BTW, Red Blood Cells are also called Erythrocytes, and Eritrea means "Red Land."

Secondly, the Greeks, as we call them today, are better defined as Ionians or Yavanas. I have written a long post with plenty of references to show that they were very much part of India at one point. It might not provide a solid proof that (some) Brahmans could be Greeks, but will definitely give an insight of Greeks being part of India. Here is the link: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...uts-panini-times-kshatriyas-4.html#post730630

I agree with you, that one should not make an assertion and not prove it, which was, as you accuse, the habit of Joseph Goebbels, yet, the post that you have written stands as a sparkling example of what kind of things Joseph Goebbels himself might have written. Perhaps you should provide some links to back up your own claims?
 
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MAYURA

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@MAYURA is asserting they are originally Afghans settled in Maharashtra for a thousand years, I am suggesting it is possible that Portugese invasion could've played a role.
again you are showing zero idea of history.

I am not saying that they were afghans who settled in maharashtra as a brahmin can not be afghan which is an iranian ethnic group.

you are being mistaken if you think that i am proposing a situation like this

" a group of tall, light skinned horsemen arrive in maharashtra who are iranian speakers and then succumb to marathi environment and become brahmins"

my idea is that

" the Nagarhara which is mentioned in sahi and pala inscriptions was a frontier outpost of indian civilization and so it had brahmins there which obviously would be taller and lighter. with ghaznavi invasion and destruction of metropolis, they flee to maharashtra and become chitapavan brahmins"


Indian civilization is not modern day india

we have vietnam professing hinduism in 1000 ad and khotan in modern day xinjiang having kshatriya kings till 985 ad.


for more on nagarhara please read

" Classical Age " by RC Majumdar.
 

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There were many Buddhist brahmins who intermarried with foreigners and who were of mixed descent. Famous examples include the great Sanskrit-Chinese translator Kumarajiva whose father was a brahmin from Kashmir and his mother from what is now Xinjiang in western China, and Amoghavajra who was half-Indian and half-Sogdian.

However, I doubt that the orthodox brahmins intermarried much with foreigners as they were full of false pretensions regarding personal purity.
 

MAYURA

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Secondly, the Greeks, as we call them today, are better defined as Ionians or Yavanas. I have written a long post with plenty of references to show that they were very much part of India at one point. It might not provide a solid proof that (some) Brahmans could be Greeks, but will definitely give an insight of Greeks being part of India. Here is the link:
the greeks are better defined as hellas but yes you are right that in Indian context we should use yavana term.


I read your rather long article and though it was well written and thought provoking, I can not agree with the things such as


1. chauhan and greek connection

no greek ruler is attested in india after 100 ad but chauhan clan arises in 8th century so this is just dragging the greeks to chauhans unnecessarily.

2. sun being common symbol


this is not because of any greek connection but simply because chauhans claim that they are of suryavansha just as Incans in peru did it.

should we see Incans as greek descendants? even buddha and mahavira claimed the sun lineage so do they become greeks?

the idea of sunworship in india is much older than that in greek culture.


the famous gayatri mantra is addressed to sun god and this is from 1200 bc ( most conservative estimate by sanskritists ) so if anything, chauhans were more like reviving vedic solar worship than greek religion.


BTW, the indo greeks were never able to affect the racial structure of india simply because they numbered some 30,000-40,000 soldiers at most in an area of 4-5 million people.

they were salt in the dish.
 

pmaitra

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@MAYURA,

I did make a connection between Yavanas and Chauhans, but I also said that I do not have any solid proof.

If I had the resources, I would do a thorough research.

It provides a lead.

Consider a crime, and investigation. What the investigators see as leads, might not be admissible in court, and might not be enough to secure a conviction, but if those leads are followed, one could stumble upon some solid evidence, from which, one could actually get a conviction.

Similarly, if we followed the lead of Yavanas and Chauhans, we might (or might not) come across some solid proof that Chauhans are actually Yavanas.
 
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MAYURA

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There were many Buddhist brahmins who intermarried with foreigners and who were of mixed descent. Famous examples include the great Sanskrit-Chinese translator Kumarajiva whose father was a brahmin from Kashmir and his mother from what is now Xinjiang in western China, and Amoghavajra who was half-Indian and half-Sogdian.

However, I doubt that the orthodox brahmins intermarried much with foreigners as they were full of false pretensions regarding personal purity.
I stand reminded ( corrected too ).
" orthodox brahmins " could never have intermarried with foreigners or even persons from other castes but then how do we explain the javan king of fifth century ad donating thousands of cows to brahmins in java ?

it is forbidden in shastras to travel on sea and cross mainland india yet there were brahmins who were ready to propogate hinduism in far distant java.


also we have case of kaundinya who married a local aborigine from cambodia and was a brahmin founding a dynasty .

the tribe remained stark naked and if brahmins could have married a khmer tribe such savage as them, I do not see any reason for they being opposed to intermixing with south indians or any other darker people.
 

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The origins and affinities of the approximately 1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in approximately 265 males from eight castes of different rank to approximately 750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%-30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (approximately 600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

Genetic evidence on the origins of Indian caste p... [Genome Res. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
This study is more than 12 years old. Why bring it up now?
 

MAYURA

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@Singh - 500 years ago in Goa Brahmins were converted to Christianity by throwing beef into their wells, this was the only way Brahmins and Portuguese blood could inter mingle I.e. by Brahmins becoming Christians.

It is obvious you have no idea about Hindu society, also Mr Mitra who is a deracinated Bengali communist and IamAnIdiot who is a Brahmin hater. G'night.

Brahmins?

the portuguese used african slaves to catch hindus from lower castes and then smear beef on their lips.

the hindus refused to accept such people as hindus and they became christians.

@mitra sir

my source is

western colonialism in asia and christianity by MD David.
 

MAYURA

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Similarly, if we followed the lead of Yavanas and Chauhans, we might (or might not) come across some solid proof that Chauhans are actually Yavanas.
Use contemporary literature and epigraphy and let us see chauhans being yavanas or not.
 

MAYURA

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However, I doubt that the orthodox brahmins intermarried much with foreigners as they were full of false pretensions regarding personal purity.
Buddhism has no dalit saint unlike hinduism and brahmanism.

buddha was more casteist than most of modern day haryanvi villagers otherwise why his shisyas were all kshatriyas or brahmins or vaishyas but no untouchables?
 

MAYURA

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I find this very strange. This particular Study too suggests otherwise.

We have had invasions after invasions, from Greeks to Persians to Afghans to Turks to Europeans. Indians are amongst the most diverse groups.
@ singh

this is again showing intellectual shallowness. let us take up one by one.

1. greeks

a.
the so called great invasion was a plundering raid of alexander with some 50,000 soldiers and it must be noted that alexander did not advance beyond jalandhar.

he was a storm came, thundered and went away along with his phalanx and MC Evandy an expert on ancient demographics has given pakistani punjab region a population of 3 million and whole pakistani region 5 million.

we have minute description of battles, towns and troop movements and the classicists can trace even unit of army in that time period.

the greek account makes it clear that all left without a delay and so even if 100 greeks married indians, it would have been reported but no such thing exists in any of the meticulous record.


this raises the question of a few hundred greeks affecting genetic structure of people numbering around 5 million.

it is impossible.

b.

indo greeks

these are people settled in eastern afghanistan and modern day khyber pakhtunkhwa and by an analysis of military strength, we can conclude that they were not more than 50,000 greeks who constantly warred among each other.

these regions were not mali but were very numerous and so i can not see any influence of 50,000 greeks who constantly warred and were eliminated by shakas and kushanas to leave any impact.

it is late night and so i am leaving it to tomorrow to show how invasions can not have any impact on indian population at ;large as in an area with millions of people, few thousand invaders would be assimilated like a drop of water in sand.
 

MAYURA

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@ singh

You are constantly harping on invasions and invasions like a mantra.

take the case of khyber pakhtunkhwa region

it was invaded by achaemenids, alexander, indo greeks, parthians, shakas, kushanas, hunas, and sasanians from 500 bc to 600 ad.



yet in 1000 ad, it was a hindu region with people worshipping cows and ganesha and shiva, speaking ancestral language of punjabi, following caste system and what not element of indian civilization.

the arab authors tell us that this was region where cows were not killed or eaten.


if the so many invasions could not change the native culture ( it is always easier to impact culture than genes as shown by british and europeans and turks of oghuz stock in modern dau turkey) , how come we call dominant sections of hindu society as invaders?

how come achaemenids, sasanians , kushanas, hunas and rest could not impact languages and religion of that area if the people are descendants of these invaders?

are you suggesting that people of that region are kushana and other central asiatic invaders' descendants but adopted language and religion of people far away from the region?

is all this not ridiculous?

people are invaders and their descendants but their culture is native.
 

MAYURA

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@ singh

You are constantly harping on invasions and invasions like a mantra.

take the case of khyber pakhtunkhwa region

it was invaded by achaemenids, alexander, indo greeks, parthians, shakas, kushanas, hunas, and sasanians from 500 bc to 600 ad.



yet in 1000 ad, it was a hindu region with people worshipping cows and ganesha and shiva, speaking ancestral language of punjabi, following caste system and what not element of indian civilization.

the arab authors tell us that this was region where cows were not killed or eaten.


if the so many invasions could not change the native culture ( it is always easier to impact culture than genes as shown by british and europeans and turks of oghuz stock in modern dau turkey) , how come we call dominant sections of hindu society as invaders?

how come achaemenids, sasanians , kushanas, hunas and rest could not impact languages and religion of that area if the people are descendants of these invaders?

are you suggesting that people of that region are kushana and other central asiatic invaders' descendants but adopted language and religion of people far away from the region?

is all this not ridiculous?

people are invaders and their descendants but their culture is native.
 

Known_Unknown

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A bit more details specifically on the genetic ancestry of Kokanastha/Chitpavan Brahmins:

Genome Biology | Full text | Molecular insight into the genesis of ranked caste populations of western India based upon polymorphisms across non-recombinant and recombinant regions in genome

Chitpavan brahmin demonstrates younger maternal component and substantial paternal gene flow from West Asia, thus giving credence to their recent Irano-Scythian ancestry from Mediterranean or Turkey, which correlated well with European-looking features of this caste. This also explains their untraceable ethno-history before 1000 years, brahminization event and later amalgamation by Maratha."

"... non-recombining uniparental contributions in Chitpavan-brahmin Mediterranean or East European type as shown by 20% (HV, U3) mtDNA lineages and highly frequent (R1a and L) Y-haplogroups. The admixture and PC analyses (Figure 3a, b) reflected genetic association of Chitpavan-brahmin with Iranian, Ashkenazi-Jews (Turkey), Greeks (East Europe) and to some extent with Central Asian Turkish populations elucidating their distinct Nordic, "Scytho-Iranian" ancestry.

The Caucasian link of Chitpavan-brahmin has also been inferred from biparental microsatellites variations (Figure 3c). The observed genomic analyses asserted the ethnographical fact that Chitpavan-brahmin share ancestry with conspicuously European-looking Pagan or Alpine group, who under religious pressure had migrated from Anatolian Turkey or East Europe to Gujarat coast probably via sea-vessel. Besides, their documented history is untraceable beyond 1000 years, further indicating that they were not part of the original Vedic migrations (early Indo-European) on the west coast. Therefore, the present genome analyses provide conclusive evidence of their recent migration, genesis, and expansion after they migrated from "Sopara" (India's western trade zone) to geographically isolated Konkan-region, where they adopted "Konkani" language, and cultivated cash crop. Their considerable genetic affinity with Maratha caste further corroborated the prevalent norm that few of the dynamic and intelligent Chitpavans were "Brahmanized" for performing religious rituals in King Shivaji's court (elite Maratha group) and some members were given the title of "Peshwa" or Minister for managing the administration of Maratha kingdom, which was extended farther north after King's death under their rule. We observed 15% similar HVS -1 sequence motif (M4 lineage) between Chitpavan-brahmin and Bene-Israeli (or Indian Jews), probably suggesting similar indigenous Paleolithic contribution. Compared to Desasth-brahmin, Kokanasth-brahmin showed lowest biparental diversity, younger age of population based upon Tau value, larger genetic affinity with West Asians plus East Europeans suggesting their recent descent, in absence of bottleneck effect.
 

Known_Unknown

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Interesting conclusion from the above study:

Conclusions

Our comprehensive genomic analyses showed divergent paternal and maternal ancestry of studied four castes correlating well with their varied migration and exchequer demographic histories. The distribution and admixture of Western-Eurasian-specific mtDNA and Y-chromosomal haplogroups lend support to the diverse genesis of western ranked castes. The asymmetrical Proto-Asian component and Western-Eurasian admixture in two brahmin castes explained the "Scytho-Dravidian" origin of elite, ancient Desasth-brahmin and much recent "Irano-Scythian" ancestry (West Asia, East Europe) of Chitpavan-brahmin. Maratha and Dhangar have significant Pleistocene gene pool corroborating their "Proto-Asian" origin.

Maratha warrior caste has experienced gene flow from Anatolian agriculturist (J2) supporting the conglomeration of migrant agricultural communities. The recombining STR loci did not reveal significant difference in population structure attributing to hypergamy between Brahmins and Maratha, and shared ancestry of Dhangar and Maratha. This study interestingly surmises the synchronization of caste stratification with West-Eurasians admixture in "Gangetic" plains, which spread in western territory due to demographic and economic reasons.
This study seems to conclusively demonstrate that the upper caste Brahmins have a higher proportion of genetic material derived from Central Asia and Europe, while the lower castes have more "indigenous" genes.

The Chitpavan/Kokanastha Brahmins are merely an exception in that they are the most recent arrivals to the subcontinent, and hence have retained their distinct physical features up to the modern times (although due to intermarriage with other Brahmins, this might no longer be the case in a few more generations).

Any comments from experts here? @civfanatic
 
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Singh

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This study is more than 12 years old. Why bring it up now?
Basically, the old narrative goes like this, Aryans came from Out of India, settled here and brought all things lovely, Dravidians were the SDRIs who were the original inhabitants.
The Indian narrative says Aryans didn't come from out of India, but were indigenous folks and Indians were resistant to intermix with foreigners (mlechchas)

This and other studies well point out different things.
 

MAYURA

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Interesting conclusion from the above study:



This study seems to conclusively demonstrate that the upper caste Brahmins have a higher proportion of genetic material derived from Central Asia and Europe, while the lower castes have more "indigenous" genes.

The Chitpavan/Kokanastha Brahmins are merely an exception in that they are the most recent arrivals to the subcontinent, and hence have retained their distinct physical features up to the modern times (although due to intermarriage with other Brahmins, this might no longer be the case in a few more generations).

Any comments from experts here? @civfanatic
There is nothing new in all this.

Chitapavan brahmins show genetic affinity with west asians just as sikhs show the same with iranians.


it is a rule of thumb that the more north western you are, the higher would be the connection with west asians.

However, this connection dates to 4-5000 years ago.
 
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MAYURA

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The Indian narrative says Aryans didn't come from out of India, but were indigenous folks and Indians were resistant to intermix with foreigners (mlechchas)
The indians were resistant to intermixing with foreigners but in post buddha era that is post 400 bc.
 

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