Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

[Singh]

A funny story about myself.

In school, I didn't know about caste, in college I still didn't. In college, everyone but me seemed to know their caste. At the time I also was into reading some of our ancient texts which talked about the Varnas, and duties and orders. I got very curious about my caste.

My parents didn't know, my grandparents knew a little about it. Upon researching and digging I found out, I am infact a Khsatriya, and not only an ordinary Kshatriya, but from the lineage of Rama. This was confirmed by having records dug at the priests, and from Hindu and Sikh texts/sources.

I was quite exultant for a few days, wow, I have found my varna and caste, and I am descended from the gods themselves. Then I snapped back into reality, it didn't make me entitled, it didn't give me any superpower, it didn't give me any solace, it was perhaps an egotistical boost at best.
Then I realized one's lineage doesn't matter as much as what one does in one's life.

Nothing wrong in following traditions and cultures, but to be blind to reality is being dishonest to one's innate wisdom.

 

[Iamanidiot]

@Singh Iam the descendant of Shudras and Iam a Shudras and thorughly happy about it

 

[Singh]

You are proposing a situation that would not be an exception but an impossibility @Singh.

If Brahmins are indeed a separate group, then their DNA shouldn't be so distinct, right ? We have enough anecdotal evidence, Kashmiri Brahmins differ from Namboodri Brahmins for eg.

In fact seen regionally, Brahmins are similar to other upper castes of the said region.

In other words, It is clear in terms of Konkan Brahmins, that they are distinct from other Brahmins and Upper Castes of that region. How is this possible ?

We have two logical hypothesis
1. Genetic Mutation
2. Foreign(not from that region) Ancestry

Genetic Mutation is highly unlikely.
Foreign Ancestry is most likely.
Now how did this Foreign Ancestry come about ? @MAYURA is asserting they are originally Afghans settled in Maharashtra for a thousand years, I am suggesting it is possible that Portugese invasion could've played a role.

But in both are scenarios one thing is clear, they are of foreign(not of Maharashtrian) descent.

Now those individuals who are highlighting a few individuals belonging to XYZ castes who are also fair, individual cases are different from community cases. We have Albinos for eg. which is due to a genetic mutation in an individuals DNA, but not in entire communities.

 

[Das ka das]

You could not be more wrong. Scientific Evidence is to the contrary.

Please provide scientific papers that prove your point. Also make sure the papers are not from the nineties or early 2000s.

 

[Singh]

@Singh Iam the descendant of Shudas and Iam a Shudras and thorughly happy about it

How does it matter ? It is only by your conduct that you will exult or insult yourself(and community?).
Frankly, I was flabbergasted and amused, that I found out that I am an Upper Caste, and voila nothing happened.

 

[Das ka das]

@Singh Iam the descendant of Shudras and Iam a Shudras and thorughly happy about it

You are also the most consistently and blatantly venomous casteist individual on this forum. :thumb:

 

[Singh]

Please provide scientific papers that prove your point. Also make sure the papers are not from the nineties or early 2000s.

Since you are a PhD student, you have access to research papers, why don't you try to give links and sources as to why @MAYURA is right in saying that in the last 5000 years no Anthropological or Genetic Change has not happened in India.

I will try my best, starting with this particular research taken from Pubmed.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...gins-indian-caste-populations.html#post732319

 

[parijataka]

@Singh ji promiscuity and wild oats few decades ago and even more so few hundred years ago were hard to hide. In a small community everyone knew what everyone was upto.

I am talking about your hypothesis about Portuguese sowing wild oats among Brahmins in Goa.

 

[Das ka das]

Since you are a PhD student, you have access to research papers, why don't you try to give links and sources as to why @MAYURA is right in saying that in the last 5000 years no Anthropological or Genetic Change has not happened in India.

I will try my best, starting with this particular research taken from Pubmed.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...gins-indian-caste-populations.html#post732319

2001 was a long time ago. Most abstracts I browsed from late 2000s onwards showed evidence to the contrary.

 

[Singh]

@Singh ji promiscuity and wild oats few decades ago and even more so few hundred years ago were hard to hide. In a small community everyone knew what everyone was upto.

I am talking about your hypothesis about Portuguese sowing wild oats among Brahmins in Goa.

Portuguese came to Western India some 500 years ago.
You have a very valid point. I concede that. It is a hypothesis, only to be replaced by a better one.

Although, one thing is more or less likely they have foreign ancestry. How did this come about ?

 

[pmaitra]

Utterly stupid.


How do explain some hazel eyed fair complexioned brahmin in e,g Odisa or Bengal and down south ??

Is it the British this time ??

Bengali Brahmins were imported during Brahmanic Renaissance in Bengal.

You have to look where Bengal is. It sits very close to the Mauryan capital, and it became predominantly Buddhist, and later turned back to Brahmanic Hinduism during the Sena Dynasty rule. There is a lot of North Indian as well as South Indian heritage amongst Bengali Brahmins.

@Virendra,

I did manage to read the paper, and thank you for sharing it.

Paper: Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia

What I could see is that the directionality of a haplogroup is shown by the diversity of that particular haplogroup. In other words, the source will have more people with that haplogroup, and the target less, and the source will show more diversity within the haplogroup (refer to the dark green colour in the figure). Now, if we take the entire population, we will see many haplogroups, and you will see that there is some prevailance of haplogroups from different regions outside India (bright blue for example), and that also indicates presence of foreign genes, and going by the size in the foreign regions and India, we have indication that peple did come from regions that lie outside of South Asia.

Please let me know whether we are on the same page as this.

 

[Manas7]

Why ?

Portuguese influence cannot be discounted when we are talking about Konkan Brahmins.



I have met Brahmins from Orissa, Bengal, Kerala and Tamil Nadu they don't look anything like those Konkan Brahmins.

Are you talking about a specific community ?
Or are you saying that all Brahmins from EAst and South India look European ?

Get out of your harebrained idea that Konkan Brahmins are anyway related to Portuguese or most Konkan Brahmins look very different from any south or east indian brahimns . Period .

There is simply no historical or scientific basis to speculate on your assumptions.

 

[Singh]

2001 was a long time ago. Most abstracts I browsed from late 2000s onwards showed evidence to the contrary.

Let me just put this a bit more clearly. So from your research in the last 5000 years no Genetic or Anthropological change has happened in India ?

I find this very strange. This particular Study too suggests otherwise.

We have had invasions after invasions, from Greeks to Persians to Afghans to Turks to Europeans. Indians are amongst the most diverse groups.

Even, our agricultural and dietary habits have caused significant changes. North Indians for eg. are usually not lactose intolerant whereas South Indians are more than likely to be lactose intolerant.

 

[pmaitra]

Even, our agricultural and dietary habits have caused significant changes. North Indians for eg. are usually not lactose intolerant whereas South Indians are more than likely to be lactose intolerant.

I do find an overwhelming presence of curd in South Indian diets. I would say North India is more inclined towards milk, and South India towards curd.

 

[Singh]

Get out of your harebrained idea that Konkan Brahmins are anyway related to Portuguese or most Konkan Brahmins look very different from any south or east indian brahimns . Period .

There is simply no historical or scientific basis to speculate on your assumptions.

Sir,

Don't get upset. If it makes you happy, you can disparage on my self, or community or family.
I am talking about KoBras, and specifically those who look European.

 

[Singh]

I do find an overwhelming presence of curd in South Indian diets. I would say North India is more inclined towards milk, and South India towards curd.

During fermentation the lactose gets converted making it easier to digest.

 

[Singh]

@Das ka das
Can you post some new research superseding this particular research ?

 

[Iamanidiot]

You are also the most consistently and blatantly venomous casteist individual on this forum. :thumb:

thats the opinion of the mentalyy retarded

 

[Iamanidiot]

@Singh Castes encouraged endogamy as a group and exogamy as a intra phenomena.But this was not always the case.Invasions always were followed by cattle ranchi of you-know-hh I forgot the old Dravidian complexion joke and Bristish employment

 

[civfanatic]

My parents didn't know, my grandparents knew a little about it. Upon researching and digging I found out, I am infact a Khsatriya, and not only an ordinary Kshatriya, but from the lineage of Rama. This was confirmed by having records dug at the priests, and from Hindu and Sikh texts/sources.

When I was a kid, I thought all Sikhs were Kshatriyas and warriors.