China-Vietnam War (1979~1989)

  1. #61

    Ray

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    OHimalaya,

    What would be your take that the disagreement is not merely what you have mentioned, but also because of historical reasons.

    I believe the word 'Vietnamese' means 'Non Chinese people of the South'. I am not too sure, though.

    Historically in 111 BC, Vietnam became part of the Chinese Empire. For the next thousand years Vietnam struggled to gain its independence from its much larger neighbour. This was achieved in 938 AD. Therefore, any country or people that has fought extensively for their independence over many years, would naturally be apprehensive of the country which had once conquered them.

    Yet, there is no doubt that the long period of Chinese rule had left its mark on Vietnam. The language, religion, architecture, system of government and most other aspects of Vietnamese life, reflected the influence of the Chinese.

    Let us look at something I found in my archives.

    Would really be obliged if comments on the issues below are made.

    Last edited by Ray; 04-10-11 at 09:36 PM.
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  2. #62

    Ray

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    I think the above is from a US book.

  3. #63
    Full Member coccafedang
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    ...and its content is right... Even in comparison to VN's books....

  4. #64
    Full Member coccafedang
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    ===========
    You can read my reply in page number 5, I hope you will have a full overview of VN-China relationship in 20th century...
    Btw, I have some Chinese friends, and they have objective view of VN-Chinese ploblems in the past, that thing changed my mind... I used to think that all Chinese were brainwashed and extreme nationlist, but I was wrong...
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  5. #65

    Ray

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    I met a Vietnamese diplomat on a long haul aircraft.

    While he was polite and very diplomatic about the relationship with China, one could sense sort of a seething anger.

    I was quite surprised since this happened before all the problems with China cropped up.

    He was a veteran of the Ho Chi Minh trail and had been in the famous Tet Offensive.

    Now, that there is good prospect of oil and other resources in the South China Sea, it will be difficult for Vietnam and China to resolve issues, since both the nations require oil and natural resources very urgently to develop their countries.

    The historical undercurrents cannot also we washed away by mere talks.

    One is well aware of the distaste each has for the other as we have observed in other forums.
    Last edited by Ray; 05-10-11 at 08:48 AM.

  6. #66
    Full Member coccafedang
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    Yes, there are two famous sayings about China-Vietnam relationship:
    1. The big brother in the North always be obsession of small Vietnam, while a wayward Vietnam always be a difficulty swallowing bone of hunger tiger China...
    2. Vietnam and China, two countries which "lying in the same bed but have different dreams", forced to live in doubt-peace...
    Last edited by coccafedang; 05-10-11 at 09:28 AM.

  7. #67
    Stars and Ambassadors kickok1975
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    I like this. That's the truth about China-Vietnam relationship. Probably apply to China-North Korea as well. However, I'm pretty impressed on how close Vietnam and China is in term of shared culture. Compare to other South East Asian countries, Vietnam people looks very close to those Chinese living in border provinces. In fact, my first girl friend is a beautiful Vietnam girl graduated from Hainoi University. We met in China when I was a college student. She was several years older than me but it didn't stop us from falling in love. Our short love ended when she return back to Vietnam and gradually we lost contact. It's a sweet memory I would never forget. I wish I can see her again one day.
    Last edited by kickok1975; 05-10-11 at 10:26 AM.

  8. #68

    Ray

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    The history of Vietnam and China is intertwined.

    China and Vietnam since the Warring States Period in China and the Thục Dynasty in Vietnam have had historical impact.

    Vietnam has been subjected to four periods of Chinese domination.

    The Vietnamese forces had been successful in repelling their Chinese overlords and maintained their independence, even though as a vassal state.

    During the time of the Nguyễn Dynasty in 1884, Qing China and France fought a war which ended in Chinese defeat. The resulting Treaty of Tientsin recognized French dominance over Vietnam and Indochina, spelling the end of Chinese influence on Vietnam.

    As much as the Hans have admiration for the Ming Dynasty, I presume the same would be for the Vietnamese towards China.

    The Chinese equation with Korea would be the Goguryeo the ancient Korean Kingdom?
    Last edited by Ray; 05-10-11 at 11:15 AM.

  9. #69
    Senior Member amoy
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    Two sides to Every Story

    My guess is that each side actually frames their story i.e. only PART of the 'TRUTH' has been told. More or less everyone of us has been 'brainwashed'. A beautiful thing on a forum is to patch up 'truth' from diff. angles to get a 'whole' picture. For example u repeatedly say "VN was not contemplating an Indochine Federation thing as she was poor...". On the other hand it's also mentioned that VN i.e. Vietminh / Vietcong had Cambodia/Laos in a triad where it was able to launch offensives on the French/South backed by US (ref. HCM trail). Besides I quoted from Le Duan's speeches regarding Sino-VN relationship, which of course are not a Chinese viewpoint.

    HCM's successor Le Duan was a revered 'nationalist'. The line Le (and his team) adopted was just in accordance with the supposedly best interest of VN, such as revamping support incl. from China as much as possible for their cause , and siding with USSR in confrontation against China throughout 1970's-80's. VN, to a degree was a 'beneficiary' of 'cold war' btwn USSR and China, as well as btwn USSR and US.

    As for historical entanglements btwn the 2 nations, Chinese community had been dominant in VN economy (esp. the South) as VN would have always attempted to change after reunified. In late Singapore PM Lee Kwan Yew's autobiography, Phạm Văn Đồng then VN's PM/FM accused Chinese in VN of being loyal to China, as a '5th column'. In the biography Lee elaborated why Sino-VN conflict broke out.
    Last edited by amoy; 05-10-11 at 12:46 PM.

  10. #70
    Full Member coccafedang
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    Some informations about history of VN before occupied by Han-Chinese....

    As "Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư" (Whole history book of Dai Viet - written by Le Van Huu - a VN acient historian in 15th century), the old ethnic Viet (Bach Viet - Hundred of Viets) founders Lingnan first domain, including a large region south of Yangtze River of China today to the Red River Delta , Ma River in northern Vietnam. Legend says the state of the Viet nation was formed in 2879 BC in Dongting Lake region (Hunan, China today).

    By the Spring and Autumn-Warring States period (8th century BC to 3rd century BC) by the pressure from the other Han-King doms as So, Qin, frequency in northern China, and Huaxia war refugees from the north down to gradually lost race of ancient Viet territory, some tribes were assimilated into the Huaxia. Culminating in the territory of the Qin Shi Huang of China pulled down to the southern coastal Guangdong.

    Kingdom of the ancient Viet nation (Xích Quỷ-Red Devils) this period was a loose federal between different ethnic groups like Dien Viet in Yunnan, Da Lang in Guizhou, Man Viet in Fujian, Dong Viet in Zhejiang, Son Viet in Jiangxi, Nam Viet in Guangdong, Au Viet in Guangxi, Lac Viet in northern Vietnam...

    The fluctuations in this period also led to the disintegration of the state coalition of ethnic Viet, from the 8th century BC onwards the Viet tribes residing in different areas in the south river Yangtze formed of different countries in each region and period as the Viet, Van Lang, Thuong Viet, Nam Viet, Au Lac, Quy Viet, Man Viet, Dong Viet, ...these independent kingdoms step by step conquered each other or by Han Empire invasions. All Viet Kingdoms were annexed in 1st Century BC.

    The modern Viet Nam (Viet Nam - the Viet in the South) is descendants of Lac Viet kingdom. Lac Viet's territory was spread from south Guangdong to Red River Delta, with the capital located in Phong Chau (Phu Tho province now), ruled by Hung Kings. In the 3rd century BC, Thuc Phan, king of Au Viet (in Guangxi province now), allied with Hung King of Lac Viet, defeated the Qin's invasion. After that, Thuc Phan and Hung King united two kingdoms become one - the Au Lac kingdom. This kingdom was conquered in 208 BC by Nam Viet (a Kingdom in Guangdong, Quangxi ), whose King was Trieu Da. In 111 BC, Nam Viet, the last Viet Kingdom was conquered by the Chinese Han.

    After completing conquer Viet Kingdoms, the Chinese Han carried out a lot of methods to assimilate the Viet (as acient history book said: kill husband, rape wife, bring prisoner from North to south, teach Confucianism, teach Han language, Han letters, Han practices...). After hundred years under the Han's rule, most of Viet tribes lost their own culture and language. The only Viet ethnic who could keep their own language and culture was Au Lac (Au Lac was the worst civilized kingdom in comparison to other Viet Kingdoms)... And they were the only country could gain independence...
    Last edited by Ray; 05-10-11 at 03:09 PM.

  11. #71

    Ray

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    coccafedang

    Thanks for the information, however if you use paragraphs it becomes easier to read.

    I am reorganising it into paragraphs since it is quite interesting.

    OHimalaya,

    Is there an English version of Lee Kwan Yew's autobiography, Phạm Văn Đồng ?
    Last edited by Ray; 05-10-11 at 03:08 PM.

  12. #72
    Full Member coccafedang
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    Thank you Ray.. Sorry again cos my English isn't good, and I do not have enough time to organise my replies in to paragraphs or check grammar and spelling as well... It's been a long time I haven't spoken or typed English, you know.
    Btw, Is there anyone like my veteran's stories? I don't know if you like to read those stories or discuss general history...
    Last edited by coccafedang; 05-10-11 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #73

    Ray

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    Not to worry.

    English so long as it is understood, it is fine. We are not all good at English, not even my countrymates.

    But if paragraphs are there, it becomes easy to understand.

    In India, we do not know much about the Chinese Vietnamese relations, except for some. Therefore, I think this is a good thread for the Chinese and Vietnamese to teach us about their history and relationship.

    Yes, the veteran stories are interesting.

    For instance, most of the US actions in Vietnam is from western sources.

    I wish someone could open a thread and tell it from the Vietnamese point of view.

    Notwithstanding, I will say that the western sources have not hesitated to bring to light their failure and so one has to admit they are at least good enough to know their errors and highlight it too!
    Last edited by Ray; 05-10-11 at 03:46 PM.

  14. #74
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    preposterous, why do you think vietnam government was so great? and why did not vietam's invasion work on stoping combodia's genocide at all?

  15. #75
    Full Member coccafedang
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    @vanwilder: I did not say VN goverment was so great... I just said VN goverment did all the things they had to do to avoid wars, especialy with giant neighbor China.

    When Khmer Rouge attacked VN in 1976, Hanoi sent many diplomats to PnomPenh to negotiated, but there was no results...

    When Khmer Rouge continuos attacked South-west VN in 1977, killed over 30.000 VN people, VN reaction was just pushing Khmer to their land, again and again...

    When Khmer Rouge had an all-out attack with a huge force of 19 divisions, Hanoi knew that if Pol Pot Regime still ruled Cambodia, VN would be attacked... That was the reason why VN invaded Cambodia...

    With China, after 1975, Le Duan knew exactly what Chinese leader think, and how unsatisfied the Chinese leaders were with VN policy. Le Duan came to Beijing in 1976 to meet Mao, Mao did not meet him, told that he was tired. In 1978, after VN invasion of Cambodia, Pham Van Dong came to Beijing to meet Zhu Anlai, he was not welcome again, too...
    (The detail oF these diplomatic afforts of VN like date, place, ... I wil give you later, I'm finding the documents about this)

    The VN goverment at that time had to face with following challengers:
    Internal problems:
    - the devastation of infrastructure
    - the collapse of central planning economy
    - the oppossition of aboard Vietnamese, they said that "VN Communist is Chinese slave, who sell the country to China, and the event of 1958 Pham Van Dong's diplomatic claim, the invasion of Paracel (Hoang Sa in VN, Xisa in Chinese) in 1974 were the evidence"...
    - the dividing in leaders point of view between pro-China and pro-Soviet
    - mass evacuation of VN people (most of them worked for ex-goverment)
    - rebellion of some minorities as Ede in Tay Nguyen, Hmong in North west...
    - Natural disaters as drought, flood that made bad influence on VN agriculture, danger of famine...
    ....

    Extenal problems:
    - US embago
    - Khmer Rouge invasion, massacre
    - Danger oF Chinese invasion
    - Isolation in international relation, being hated by S E A neighboring countries
    - Depended strongly on Soviet aid...
    ....
    what could we do if we were VN leader at that time?

    As i said, Le Duan was a good leader, but he was no match in comparison to Ho Chi Minh. If Uncle Ho still alived, I'm sure that China-Viet Nam war would never happen.

    And, I don't understand what do you mean? VN invasion of Cambodia, pushed Khmer Rouge into Thai boder, liberated million Cambodian from "killing field", and in ten years later, VN had to maintain her army in Cambodia to prevent Pol Pot come back, with the price of more than 10.000 VN soldiers dead, was that not enough?

    I have an interesting thinking:
    - US built a pro-US goverment in South VN, after losing 58.000 men in 7 years, US withdrawed, pro-US goverment downed by VN Communist...
    - Soviet built a pro-Soviet goverment in Afganistan, after losing 14.000 men in 10 years, Soviet withdrawed, pro - Soviet downed by MuJahedin
    - Vietnam built a pro-Vietnam goverment in Cambodia, after losing 10.000 men in 10 years, Viet Nam withdrawed, pro - Viet Nam still existed. Hun Sen, now is still the most powerful man of Cambodia.

    @ Ray: I have a lot of stories, memoirs of veteran from anti-US war... But I have not much time to open a thread and post, I will invite some of my friends join us, they will help me...
    Last edited by coccafedang; 05-10-11 at 07:42 PM.
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